[Spoilers] Hizdahr

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

i'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that he probably wasn't. Now at this point should we even be trying to guess who the harpy is or is there just no leader of the sons of the harpy?

I always thought the Green Grace was the Harpy anyway.

[voodooqueen126]

I think Hizdahr was in on the planning of the Pit/ attack on Dany. He just didn't realize the Harpy's were going to include him to be killed as well.... Hey...was Littlefinger around?...hahaha just kidding but it is his style..

I actually think it is possible that Hizdahr was willing to sacrifice his life for his cause. Given his discussion with Tyrion and Darrio (because women are incapable of abstract thought, Daenerys was just making love looks at Darrio) and his statement that Meereen would be here long after he was dust, was him subtly stating that his death would be worth it for Meereen.

But I suppose that is honeypot logic.

[DemiNymph]

I know it's been widely speculated that Daario has a secret identity (Faceless Man, Euron, Benjen, Harpy, etc.), but I've never even suspected that he's anything more than what he claims to be, a sellsword who loves to fight and fuck.

Glad Hizdahr wasn't part of the Harpy. I felt he added some critical diversity and dimension to the slave masters, showing some of them could be reasoned with (granted, this is much clearer in the show but I think it's true in the books too) but I also have always maintained that the Hizdahrs were a minority and most were committed to breaking the peace, only biding their time until the moment was right. In the books it was going to be the arrival of the vast Volantene fleet (which Yunkai had already paid for with the promise of thousands of slaves from Meereen), but since the show kept everything internal to Meereen it was changed to Dany's arrival in the fighting pits.

I liked show Hizdahr. He made some valid points and could hold his own debating with Tyrion. He made Dany look really stupid, narrow minded and spoiled at times and showed her up for who she is. It's a pity they got rid of his character.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

I have a crazy theory Hizdahr was late because he was arranging something with Dany's other dragons.

[cade]

I liked show Hizdahr. He made some valid points and could hold his own debating with Tyrion. He made Dany look really stupid, narrow minded and spoiled at times and showed her up for who she is. It's a pity they got rid of his character.

I didn't like or agree with him, especially in this episode, and I definitely prefer Dany's worldview to his, but his was an important one to reflect in Meereen and I thought he was an effective, intriguing character, well-played by Joel Fry. After seeing his bloodlust for the fighting pits, I think it's very fitting that he was killed by beasts he thought could be reasoned and compromised with, while Dany went out and tamed the dragon she will use to burn down such beasts.

[Young Nan]

Was it? That was what Dany & Co assumed and that's why they went through with it. But who's to say they were right or should have been right? Extremists have a tendency not to compromise. Sleeping with the enemy or marrying them doesn't make them your friend or family. The lesson might have been in fact that not all political compromises/alliances are politically astute or savy. It works sometimes and it doesn't work in others.

It's not a simple let's marry the enemy and make them family, then all is well and good. Sometimes it's a smart move and sometimes it's stupid. The same with rebellions. Some require being put down decisively; others should be handled more delicately. Some criminals deserve mercy, others the maximum punishment. I think I've made my point.

Dany is a total outsider and if an extreme faction of the Meereenese nobility want nothing to do with her in any way, including compromise, then it makes perfect sense for them to kill anyone who stands it their way, including other noble families.

That's all well and good, but I doubt D&D did any deep thinking as to conspiracies, history, terrorism, or the behavior of rebels. As they said "themes are for 8th grade book reports". This boils down to thinking it would be cool to have a big stabby battle scene. They don't really care whether it made sense on any deeper level. They are appealing to their broader audience, the " boobies and battles " crowd. Those of us who enjoy deeper storylines that make us think, are in the minority, unfortunately. Which sucks because the story they they are adapting has a lot of depth.

[ummester]

I didn't like or agree with him, especially in this episode, and I definitely prefer Dany's worldview to his

So you prefer an unrealistic, idealistic world view, that ultimately threatens to burn an entire city to the ground when backed into a logical corner?

[ummester]

I liked show Hizdahr. He made some valid points and could hold his own debating with Tyrion. He made Dany look really stupid, narrow minded and spoiled at times and showed her up for who she is. It's a pity they got rid of his character.

He won in the debate with Tyrion, hands down. Tyrion's response was gibberish :D

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Do people really tend to believe/think that Daario is the leader of the Harpies? LMAO.... those theories are getting out of the control. Seriously wtf.

And Hodor is Azor Ahai. >.>

I don't think they would follow a non-Meerenese. And Daario killed his cohorts to enter Dany's service and help her take Slaver's Bay. It's not really realistic for him to be behind them.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

It looked like the harpies were killing the masters and then they killed Hizdahr. Also, I think I heard the harpies do some kind of whispering chant before surrounding Dany. If I recall, the former slaves were hissing maybe chanting when the slave leader was executed. Could the harpies be pretending to be the masters to provoke Dany? I am really confused who the harpies are supposed to be?

The ex-slaves weren't chanting when they hissed.

[cade]

So you prefer an unrealistic, idealistic world view, that ultimately threatens to burn an entire city to the ground when backed into a logical corner?

She made no such threat. It was a theoretical, philosophical debate. She was talking about Hizdahr's ideal of a great city and how she will destroy it if need be. Hizdahr thinks the fighting pits are vital to a city being great, a vile idea that will prove false just as it has in our own history.

[ummester]

She made no such threat. It was a theoretical, philosophical debate. She was talking about Hizdahr's ideal of a great city and how she will destroy it if need be. Hizdahr thinks the fighting pits are vital to a city being great, a vile idea that will prove false just as it has in our own history.

Dany cannot possibly have the hindsight of modern Earth humans and our history. Regardless, our civilisation is still rife with violence, both publically embraced and hidden below the surface. It is foolish to think it is not.

What is relevant is that Dany said she would burn Mereen to the ground if need be. Great, mature response there. She was having a dummy spit, because Hizdhar was basically just intellectualising what Jorah said earlier about there being a beast in everyman that stirs when you put a sword in their hand, or whatever.

And then Tyrion, for all his holier than though - yes, you can eloquently explain how it is, when it suits you, but that isn't how it should be - goes and 'heroically' stabs someone in the back. Worse than being idealists, Dany and Tyrion are hypocritical idealists - they know the truth of the world they live in, they either don't want to admit it to themselves or are deluded enough to think they can change it.

[cade]

Dany cannot possibly have the hindsight of modern Earth humans and our history.

All the more impressive that she's revolted by fighting pits and believes they're unnecessary in a world where they're almost universally beloved and believed to be necessary.

[ummester]

All the more impressive that she's revolted by fighting pits and believes they're unnecessary in a world where they're almost universally beloved and believed to be necessary.

And happy to feed people to her dragons, when it suits her? She isn't revolted by the blood, or the pits - she likes it, she was smiling when Daario was talking about shanking people in the jaw or neck. She is revolted by the idea that she, the Dragon Queen, is not powerful enough to change it and doesn't want to admit that to herself.

When Jorah accused her of having a soft heart, she said she didn't. It's true - she doesn't. She is a conqueror who is just trying to convince herself its ok for her, even when it's not. And she doesn't like information that suggests otherwise.

[cade]

And then Tyrion, for all his holier than though - yes, you can eloquently explain how it is, when it suits you, but that isn't how it should be - goes and 'heroically' stabs someone in the back. Worse than being idealists, Dany and Tyrion are hypocritical idealists - they know the truth of the world they live in, they either don't want to admit it to themselves or are deluded enough to think they can change it.

That's ludicrous. Tyrion was defending Missandei against a terrorist trying to murder her, and you call him a hypocrite for doing that while being against people being killed for entertainment.

I don't think these books or this show will end up being the nihilistic fantasy you're evidently looking for. GRRM has always rebutted that charge and I certainly don't believe his message is "the world can't be changed for the better, so don't bother."

And happy to feed people to her dragons, when it suits her. She isn't revolted by the blood, she likes it - she is revolted by the idea she can't change it and doesn't want to admit that to herself.

You're just making stuff up. It's very clear in the show and in the books, where we are given her own thoughts, that she's revolted by the blood of the fighting pits.

You make it sound like she feeds random people to dragons for fun. She fed one slave master/suspected terrorist to her dragons to quell a terrorist insurgency. Obviously completely different from killing for sport.

[ummester]

That's ludicrous. Tyrion was defending Missandei against a terrorist trying to murder her, and you call him a hypocrite for doing that while being against people being killed for entertainment.

I don't think these books or this show will end up being the nihilistic fantasy you're evidently looking for. GRRM has always rebutted that charge and I certainly don't believe his message is "the world can't be changed for the better, so don't bother."

Terrorist? By whose standard? That guy was just defending the traditional values of his homeland, that Dany and Tyrion have intruded on, uninvited.

As for the message, are you really that sure? At one stage GRRM thought the best ending was a bunch of gravestones - do not underestimate just how dark and nihilistic this saga is set to become.

You're just making stuff up. It's very clear in the show and in the books, where we are given her own thoughts, that she's revolted by the blood of the fighting pits.

You make it sound like she feeds random people to dragons for fun. She fed one slave master/suspected terrorist to her dragons to quell a terrorist insurgency. Obviously completely different from killing for sport.

She had no proof, she fed a guy to her dragons without knowing if he was involved with the Harpy or not?

I'm not making stuff up. Why is Dany so hung up on Daario? She likes it. She likes violent men. they are her type. Hizdhar, a patriotic pacifist, is not. Hizdhar does not get Dany all hot and bothered like Daario does - because Daario is dangerous and bloodthirsty - exactly the things that Dany likes but denies herself to try and be a responsible Queen.

Watch it again. Watch her smiling when Daario talks about shanking people. She doesn't have an issue with violence at all - she has an issue with the fact she cannot control the violence in the pits.

Oh, one more thing - if you know the history of the books, the Giscari Empire is way older than the Valaryen Empire. Slaves or not, the Sons of the Harpy probably think their traditions are far more important than the wishes of an interloper from an Empire that was destroyed.

[Drogonthedread]

some people need to read the actual books instead of reading online blogs about the story arc

[ummester]

some people need to read the actual books instead of reading online blogs about the story arc

In the actual books, Dany is not a nice person. In the actual books, she is a semi deluded idealist that cannot look back, in case she doesn't like what she sees.

GRRM has basically written 5000 pages about people who either start unlikable, or become unlikable over the course of those pages - that he sees gravestones for everyone in the conclusion makes perfect sense considering the type of characters he has created.

[bent branch]

I wonder if Hizdahr was doing something with regards to the two other dragons. I don't know what that would be, but maybe the next episode will open with them just showing up out of nowhere. :dunno:

[cade]

Terrorist? By whose standard? That guy was just defending the traditional values of his homeland, that Dany and Tyrion have intruded on, uninvited.

He was defending slavery. As should go without saying, that's not a legitimate value. And his homeland was overwhelmingly comprised of slaves and they welcomed Dany into the city, but I guess slaves don't count since they're just sub-human property.

Whatever you choose to call the man trying to kill Missandei, there was nothing remotely hypocritcal or inconsistent about Tyrion killing him.

As for the message, are you really that sure? At one stage GRRM thought the best ending was a bunch of gravestones - do not underestimate just how dark and nihilistic this saga is set to become.

Yes, I'm sure. The gravestones thing was clearly a joke.

Early on, one critic described the TV series as bleak and embodying a nihilistic worldview, another bemoaned its "lack of moral signposts." Have you ever worried that there's some validity to that criticism?

GRRM: No. That particular criticism is completely invalid. Actually, I think it's moronic. My worldview is anything but nihilistic.

I'm not making stuff up. Why is Dany so hung up on Daario? She likes it. She likes violent men. they are her type. Hizdhar, a patriotic pacifist, is not. Hizdhar does not get Dany all hot and bothered like Daario does - because Daario is dangerous and bloodthirsty - exactly the things that Dany likes but denies herself to try and be a responsible Queen.

Watch it again. Watch her smiling when Daario talks about shanking people. She doesn't have an issue with violence at all - she has an issue with the fact she cannot control the violence in the pits.

First you praise Hizdahr's bloodlust for the fighting pits and now you call him a pacifist.

It's not even debatable, Dany was clearly disgusted by the bloodshed of the fighting pits. Is she drawn to other forms of violence, of course, that's fundamental to her nature as Mother of Dragons, but she's also Mhysa, often yearning for a peaceful kingdom or a simple, happy life represented by the Red Door. She's a very complex, conflicted character. Trying to boil her down to being bloodthirsty and power-mad is completely at odds with the character GRRM or D&D have written.