[Spoilers] Hizdahr

[Sonic The Hedgeknight]

I'm really looking forward to a eeanimated Red Viper fighting Stoneman Mormont. HBO's Game of Thrones, Season 5, is awesome.

Reanimation happend ONCE on the show, its not like its a major plotpoint like having a unjustly murdered POV character back from the grave along with red priest Melisandre actually proving that her magic powers exist.

After the departure from the books this season, who can even guess? Hizdahr could be coldhands or the Hound with plastic surgery, or spiderman for all we know, this is HBO's world now.

Gendry is the Harpy, why else would he row east. Minds blown.

[ummester]

He was defending slavery. As should go without saying, that's not a legitimate value. And his homeland was overwhelmingly comprised of slaves and they welcomed Dany into the city, but I guess slaves don't count since they're just sub-human property.

Whatever you choose to call the man trying to kill Missandei, there was nothing remotely hypocritcal or inconsistent about Tyrion killing him.

Violence begets violence, you can't justify it on the one hand and oppose it on the other. And you can't assume anyone's moral POV is ever more righteous than another's, even if it includes slavery, without attempting to understand the basis for someone's POV.

In book and show, Dany had the slaves be violent to the masters. She liberated the city with a violent action and generated a violent city as a result. She was never invited, she went there and initiated violence entirely because of her own beliefs.

Tyrion is no more or less right than the Harpy that attacked him - picking a side, as you are, is narrow minded. Just because the harpy are portrayed as a faceless terrorist, doesn't make them automatically the bad guy, beyond your personal and emotionally biased take on them. Tyrion was never invited to Mereen either, he shoved his way into a stool at an invading Queens side with his plot armour.

And I guarantee you, there is no way out of it now, in book or show - if Dany goes to Westeros, Slavers Bay will be left in ruins. All because of her ideals.

First you praise Hizdahr's bloodlust for the fighting pits and now you call him a pacifist.

It's not even debatable, Dany was clearly disgusted by the bloodshed of the fighting pits. Is she drawn to other forms of violence, of course, that's fundamental to her nature as Mother of Dragons, but she's also Mhysa, often yearning for a peaceful kingdom or a simple, happy life represented by the Red Door. She's a very complex, conflicted character. Trying to boil her down to being bloodthirsty and power-mad is completely at odds with the character GRRM or D&D have written.

Hizdhar knew the pits were best for Mereen, best for the cities stability.

Only reason he started getting all 'I know who can win a fight' is he was trying to compete with Daario's more aggressive behaviour, sue him for having testosterone and getting his back up with a guy around his betrothed.

I never said Dany wasn't complex, or conflicted. Tywin was also complex, though not often conflicted. Even Ramsay has some inner conflict about how far to push things with his dad :)

Yes, I'm sure. The gravestones thing was clearly a joke.

Early on, one critic described the TV series as bleak and embodying a nihilistic worldview, another bemoaned its "lack of moral signposts." Have you ever worried that there's some validity to that criticism?

GRRM: No. That particular criticism is completely invalid. Actually, I think it's moronic. My worldview is anything but nihilistic.

1) GRRM's never said the gravestones were a joke, has he?

2) A realist looks like a nihilist to an optimist, or an idealist. I think GRRM is a realist - Dany failing and retreating into a fire and blood mindset is realistic. Arya becoming a psychopath and basically bad person is realistic, as she witnessed some pretty bad things. Jon being dead, dead is actually more realistic than any other outcome. Fantasy is not generally a realistic genre - that's why it's fantasy :) Realistically, Sauron would have won. Nihilistically, Frodo would have given up hope before he even tried. That good people are even trying in GoTs stops it from being Nihilistic, seeing more than 50% of the good people fail is just realistic - probably closer to 75%.

Jamie is on a path of redemption - the saga has a human hero. Brienne, although thuggish, is also pretty steadfastly on the side of good. It's at least 2 hopeful characters, which makes it realistic, rather than nihilistic. If it was Nihilistic, Jamie and Brienne would have been flayed by now :)

[The Grandmaster]

Dany cannot possibly have the hindsight of modern Earth humans and our history. Regardless, our civilisation is still rife with violence, both publically embraced and hidden below the surface. It is foolish to think it is not.What is relevant is that Dany said she would burn Mereen to the ground if need be. Great, mature response there. She was having a dummy spit, because Hizdhar was basically just intellectualising what Jorah said earlier about there being a beast in everyman that stirs when you put a sword in their hand, or whatever.

And then Tyrion, for all his holier than though - yes, you can eloquently explain how it is, when it suits you, but that isn't how it should be - goes and 'heroically' stabs someone in the back. Worse than being idealists, Dany and Tyrion are hypocritical idealists - they know the truth of the world they live in, they either don't want to admit it to themselves or are deluded enough to think they can change it.

I've got to agree with you there. With all her eloquent, idealistic, metaphorical speech about how she's going to "break the wheel" in Westeros, she's doing a pretty bad job of doing that in Meereen, isn't she? Because for the wheel in Meereen, it certainly does look like "on and on it spins." Yes she will restore order, but that's hardly going to be very difficult when she comes back on the back of a dragon and with a horde of Dothraki, which makes all her idealistic claims ring false.

[ummester]

I've got to agree with you there. With all her eloquent, idealistic, metaphorical speech about how she's going to "break the wheel" in Westeros, she's doing a pretty bad job of doing that in Meereen, isn't she? Because for the wheel in Meereen, it certainly does look like "on and on it spins." Yes she will restore order, but that's hardly going to be very difficult when she comes back on the back of a dragon and with a horde of Dothraki, which makes all her idealistic claims ring false.

She can't restore order - that is another thing that sickens her when she looks at the fighting. She is slowly realising she cannot make the world the way she wants it, even with dragons. The only question that remains is does she salvage herself or does she go all fire and blood? My money is on the later, but I could be wrong.

Of course Hizdhar knew more about what was right for Mereen than either Dany or Tyrion possibly could - he was born and raised there, it was his city. He was right when he called Dany and Tyrion out on thinking that they know is best for other people, they don't, they don't even know wht is best for themselves.

[cade]

Violence begets violence, you can't justify it on the one hand and oppose it on the other. And you can't assume anyone's moral POV is ever more righteous than another's, even if it includes slavery, without attempting to understand the basis for someone's POV.

Yes, I can and do, and so have billions of others. I'm not an extreme moral relativist or a pacifist, and neither is GRRM. He's said that while he's objected to many wars, he would've fought in WWII if he could. Violence to stop genocide is clearly superior to the violence of genocide. Violence to stop serial killers and rapists is clearly superior to their violence. It goes on and on like this, right down to Tyrion's violence to save Missandei being justified and superior to the violence of the fighting pits and the pro-slavery Harpy. Unbelievably, it continues to have to be said in these forums that freedom is morally superior to slavery.

In book and show, Dany had the slaves be violent to the masters. She liberated the city with a violent action and generated a violent city as a result. She was never invited, she went there and initiated violence entirely because of her own beliefs.

No, Meereen was a violent city for thousands and thousands of years before she was ever born. There is no evidence of Dany ever having slaves be violent to the masters beyond what was necessary to liberate the city. She was welcomed by a vast majority of the city and spurred a popular insurrection, but once she had control of the city she decreed that all murderers, rapists and thieves be punished.

Hizdhar knew the pits were best for Mereen, best for the cities stability.

Only reason he started getting all 'I know who can win a fight' is he was trying to compete with Daario's more aggressive behaviour, sue him for having testosterone and getting his back up with a guy around his betrothed.

He clearly enjoyed the bloodshed.

[DemiNymph]

The best thing I can say about Dany is that she has good intentions. However, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[davos notworthy]

The harpy in the show is probably just that one prostitute.

Yeah, she let the Harpy's kill the first Unsullied and she pointed Greyworm into the alley to be ambushed. If not her then someone must have told her the plan?

[DemiNymph]

Yeah and why would a prostitute be unhappy about the regime change? Maybe she has a major loss of income from her regular nobility customers due to them being killed? Or are we going to get some love story between a prostitute and a handsome nobleman who were secret lovers who were planning to elope before the evil dragon queen killed her lover?

[ummester]

Yes, I can and do, and so have billions of others. I'm not an extreme moral relativist or a pacifist, and neither is GRRM. He's said that while he's objected to many wars, he would've fought in WWII if he could. Violence to stop genocide is clearly superior to the violence of genocide. Violence to stop serial killers and rapists is clearly superior to their violence. It goes on and on like this, right down to Tyrion's violence to save Missandei being justified and superior to the violence of the fighting pits and the pro-slavery Harpy. Unbelievably, it continues to have to be said in these forums that freedom is morally superior to slavery.

The Harpy (in show) killed slavers and slaves alike. They are not pro slavery - they are anti Targareyan occupation.

Dany is not half as morally superior as you imagine her to be. I won't get into WW2, because we are only discussing a fantasy show, suffice to say that GRRM was a child in an Allied country when it was happening so his POV would have been swayed by local propaganda.

[whiteravens]

You're very much right. We all know how D&D is dead subtle with this kind of stuff. I'm surprised they haven't stuck a huge arrow bordered with neon lights over Olly's head yet. So with Hizdahr being late, though this might be a bit more inconclusive occurring in the books, in the show, this means there's a good chance it's him.

Haven't they?? I think at this point it'll be genuinely suprising if Olly turns around and is like "I get why you're doing it even if I hate them..". Seriously, between a man making hard choices, that look wrong to others, but the man knows is right in the long run, and all those forboding looks - i'll be suprised if he doesnt have a dagger in each hand.

[nfe]

GRRM has basically written 5000 pages about people who either start unlikable, or become unlikable over the course of those pages

Plus Jon Snowwalker.

Hizdhar knew the pits were best for Mereen, best for the cities stability.

Just like the colosseum was to Rome. Like dog fighting was to certain inner city communities. Like fox hunting was to the British upper classes. Like slavery was to most of the world at one time or the other.

Or rather, they thought they were best for their stability. Hizzy thinks one thing and Dany (plus her entourage, for the most part) thinks another. There's little objectivity on either side.

[Sopranos With Swords]

I won't get into WW2, because we are only discussing a fantasy show, suffice to say that GRRM was a child in an Allied country when it was happening so his POV would have been swayed by local propaganda.

Not propaganda - I really think facts would have been enough in WW2, that's the point. If there is an extreme injustice and you are in a position to stop it, many people would and did.

What is happening in Meereen is appalling and unjust. Dany is right to want to put a stop to it and eradicate slavery - that’s what gives her the moral high ground because people like Hizdair would just let a massive injustice continue because that’s how it’s always been.

The only real moral dilemma comes from the fact that the city's society/economy is historically built and deeply rooted in slavery. It isn't something that can be eradicated instantly without just knocking down and starting again. Slavery is wrong and has to end – either through hard work or war. Her choice is stay in the pyramid and dedicate/risk her life to stay and build a fair future in slaver's bay - or IF she is determined to end slavery in the city AND leave for westeros, go fire and blood and kill the masters.

That’s why her epiphany is so important. She’s debating staying and building the future or being true to herself.

“Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words”

The morally superior thing would be to dedicate ones life to the plight of slavers bay for a better future for everyone – but she won’t. That is the idealistic bit, not ending slavery - she can still do that with fire and blood and it would – in my opinion – still morally be far superior to the violence used against slaves.

[EobardThawne]

What was odd was that as soon as he said he was "just making sure everything was in order" or whatnot I was completely certain he was involved.

But the logic of the Harpies confounds me on the show. They're attempting to gain the support of the people to topple Daenerys, correct? So what do they get from murdering commoners?

[BlueDragon]

Martin was born after WW2. I am about his age and from the same neck of the woods.

We were exposed to a lot of WW2 historical footage on TV and in the movie theater as children. His willingness to see himself in WW2 is not the result of propaganda, but rather the result of the Nazi horror. Maybe you think concentration camps and a sneak attack on a nation whose population wanted to stay out of Europe propaganda.

The propaganda part of all of this had to do with the powers that be importing Nazis into our scientific hierarchy and praising them no end while allowing other Nazis to live peacefully in South America instead of bringing them to justice.

[nfe]

But the logic of the Harpies confounds me on the show. They're attempting to gain the support of the people to topple Daenerys, correct? So what do they get from murdering commoners?

The same things terrorists always get from killing civilians. Fear.

[cade]

1) GRRM's never said the gravestones were a joke, has he?

I never thought he needed to.

The Harpy (in show) killed slavers and slaves alike. They are not pro slavery - they are anti Targareyan occupation.

It's obvious they are pro-slavery. Almost certainly, former slavers like Hizdahr were targeted because they'd compromised with Dany, not because they'd been slavers. Many Sons of the Harpy were even wearing the garb of the Great Masters, and if they were just impersonating them they likely would've been caught.

Dany is not half as morally superior as you imagine her to be. I won't get into WW2, because we are only discussing a fantasy show, suffice to say that GRRM was a child in an Allied country when it was happening so his POV would have been swayed by local propaganda.

It's not about WW2 specifically, it's about the fact that GRRM isn't a pacifist and he's not writing a pacifist tract. He strongly disagrees with your belief that "Violence begets violence, you can't justify it on the one hand and oppose it on the other." Just as he vehemently shoots down the claim made by you and many others that ASOIAF is nihilistic. He would not scoff like you did at people believing they can change the world for the better.

[ummester]

It's not about WW2 specifically, it's about the fact that GRRM isn't a pacifist and he's not writing a pacifist tract. He strongly disagrees with your belief that "Violence begets violence, you can't justify it on the one hand and oppose it on the other." Just as he vehemently shoots down the claim made by you and many others that ASOIAF is nihilistic. He would not scoff like you did at people believing they can change the world for the better.

I never said he was nihilistic I said he was realistic and that idealists think realist are nihilists.

Most people who try and change the world for the better, with force, change it for the worse. It just happens. If GRRM believes that is the right way, it's because he has spent too long n the USA, where the idea that invading a country for their oil is fine, so long as you leave them with a McDonalds.

[Philpenn]

Anyone else notice the big b*stard harpy when they got surrounded in the pit..?

Yes, duder was a beast.

[cade]

I never said he was nihilistic I said he was realistic and that idealists think realist are nihilists.

Only after I quoted him denying his books are nihilistic. Before that you wrote, "do not underestimate just how dark and nihilistic this saga is set to become."

Most people who try and change the world for the better, with force, change it for the worse. It just happens. If GRRM believes that is the right way, it's because he has spent too long n the USA, where the idea that invading a country for their oil is fine, so long as you leave them with a McDonalds.

He may well agree with you that most well-intentioned violence has led to bad outcomes. Just not all.

[obiwan_shenobi]

Violence begets violence, you can't justify it on the one hand and oppose it on the other. And you can't assume anyone's moral POV is ever more righteous than another's, even if it includes slavery, without attempting to understand the basis for someone's POV.

In book and show, Dany had the slaves be violent to the masters. She liberated the city with a violent action and generated a violent city as a result. She was never invited, she went there and initiated violence entirely because of her own beliefs.

Tyrion is no more or less right than the Harpy that attacked him - picking a side, as you are, is narrow minded. Just because the harpy are portrayed as a faceless terrorist, doesn't make them automatically the bad guy, beyond your personal and emotionally biased take on them. Tyrion was never invited to Mereen either, he shoved his way into a stool at an invading Queens side with his plot armour.

I have to disagree here. Yes, Dany is an outside force, a conqueror that no one asked for. But she is attempting to abolish slavery, a revolutionary act that runs contrary to years of slave culture within Meereen and as such has sparked the violent conflict so often seen in times of revolution.

Her own beliefs - in particular that slavery is wrong and should be abolished - seem to be very in line with the beliefs of those she has liberated. I'm not justifying all her actions, she's made numerous mistakes and been inconsistent in her applications of justice, and I'm not actually someone who enjoys her character at all, but conquering Meereen to abolish slavery and attempting to learn how to rule fairly are certainly high moral endeavours.

The SOH are almost exactly what you claim they're not - faceless terrorists. They are fighting against an authority that has been accepted by the majority of the people in order to attempt to re-establish slavery.

Tyrion bemoans violence and bloodshed for the sake of entertainment, but yes, when it comes to defending his life and the lives of innocents around him, he will kill to survive. This is NOT the same as condoning all violence, you cannot simply disregard the context of his actions.