[Spoilers] Hizdahr

[CornCornSnow]

Dresden.

The rallying cry of Holocaust deniers the world over.

Sometimes, violence must be used to solve other violence. Or, you know...maybe the world should have just let the Germans have all of Europe and the Japanese have all of Asia? We have problems in the world today, but most people (including most Germans and Japanese) are very glad that neither of those WW2 empires still exist.

[Sopranos With Swords]

Hizdahr zo Loraq is not allowed to be right about anything anymore because he is a former slaver. That's the feeling you get from everyone on the show (Dany, Tyrion, etc), and that's the feeling I get from the arguments on this forum. It seems very single-minded to me.

He's well spoken, knowledgeable and has insight into the way that city works. This is because he has grown up in a family that is an institution in itself - with money and education - but on the back of people's freedom. Many intelligent people in many cultures all over the world throughout time have allowed atrocities to continue in their society.

Hizdahr is an interesting character because we get all the pro-slavery arguments from him - but ultimately I don't see how these arguments can be anything but wrong on a moral level. He can make valid points about how ridding slaver's bay of slavers will topple it's economy and breed chaos, but ultimately the argument for allowing this culture to continue with half it's population treated like livestock is invalid. What would be helpful, and would earn him far more respect, is if he worked with Dany towards real peaceful change and brought her ideas she could actually back. If he is the harpy, of course, that was never going to happen. Both sides are guilty of narrow-mindedness in this respect.

[Estelindis]

Honestly, the look on his face when he got stabbed just looked fake... so, he is either a bad actor, or that part was staged by the SoTH in order to make it seem like he wasn't part of the plot to kill Dany.

The look on his face when he was stabbed did seem a bit fake. However, while I think the stabbing was real, I don't think the look on his face makes him a bad actor. Even some of the best actors on the show have had occasional derp moments.

Hizdahr is an interesting character because we get all the pro-slavery arguments from him - but ultimately I don't see how these arguments can be anything but wrong on a moral level. He can make valid points about how ridding slaver's bay of slavers will topple it's economy and breed chaos, but ultimately the argument for allowing this culture to continue with half it's population treated like livestock is invalid. What would be helpful, and would earn him far more respect, is if he worked with Dany towards real peaceful change and brought her ideas she could actually back. If he is the harpy, of course, that was never going to happen. Both sides are guilty of narrow-mindedness in this respect.

We never get a single pro-slavery argument from Hizdahr on the show. He never says getting rid of slaving will topple Meereen's economy. He works on Dany's behalf to re-abolish slavery in Yunkai, and the one concession that he brings back for her approval involves free men fighting in the pits.

[StarksNTargs]

The look on his face when he was stabbed did seem a bit fake. However, while I think the stabbing was real, I don't think the look on his face makes him a bad actor. Even some of the best actors on the show have had occasional derp moments.

I don't think he's a bad actor, to be honest. I more think that the scene was meant to play out that way because he actually is the harpy. We'll know for sure next episode likely. If he is still alive after that stabbing, it will point even more so to it being staged.

[Estelindis]

I don't think he's a bad actor, to be honest. I more think that the scene was meant to play out that way because he actually is the harpy. We'll know for sure next episode likely. If he is still alive after that stabbing, it will point even more so to it being staged.

His official biography in the HBO viewer's guide has been amended to say that he was killed. This could be a misdirection, but I doubt it. Rather, I think that everything that made Hizdahr look suspicious up to this point was the real misdirection.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I have always suspected Daario of being up to no good but I tend to agree, just some spontanious uprising without the leader coming forward yet. Rest assured though, they should have a leader if we are being realistic but the show is not so they may just wash it away.

[cade]

We never get a single pro-slavery argument from Hizdahr on the show. He never says getting rid of slaving will topple Meereen's economy. He works on Dany's behalf to re-abolish slavery in Yunkai, and the one concession that he brings back for her approval involves free men fighting in the pits.

True, though as a proud member of a powerful slaver family, I see no reason to doubt that he was pro-slavery (as a vast majority of humans would've been in his position). If he was anti-slavery, I think he would've told Dany that. He was very progressive and reasonable by the standards of the culture he was raised in, so it's a pity there weren't more like him, but to me there was a clear pro-slavery subtext in him saying violence and cruelty are necessary for greatness and that Meereen has long been a great city. It was like a condensed, watered down version of Xaro's slavery apologia in ADwD.

[Nictarion]

Honestly, the look on his face when he got stabbed just looked fake... so, he is either a bad actor, or that part was staged by the SoTH in order to make it seem like he wasn't part of the plot to kill Dany.

I thought Joel Fry was really good tbh.

[Lord Ben]

Where they only stabbing the masters or the slaves too? I forgot to look and haven't rewatched yet.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

Is Hizdahr actually dead on the show? He was stabbed on the right chest, not on his heart. And he wasn't completely dead when we last saw him.

The title of the music track for that scene was 'Son of the Harpy', not 'sons of the harpy'. Maybe Hizdahr was planning this all along and was wearing mail or some kind of armor beneath his robes? Best way to survive a battle is pretending to be dead, as Tyrion says to Penny in DWD.

It is interesting that the show made it a point to for us to see that Hizdahr was late to the start of the games. When Dany coldly asked "Where have you been?" Hizdahr responded cryptically, "Just some final preparations."

Although, the contrary evidence would be his stabbing -- it isn't possible (without using magic, I suppose) make sure a person isn't killed after deeply stabbing him in the chest. No way was that some sort of feint to give plausible deniability to Hizdahr.

[Nictarion]

Where they only stabbing the masters or the slaves too? I forgot to look and haven't rewatched yet.

Just the Masters and Unsullied. They didn't kill any of the ex-slaves.

[Estelindis]

True, though as a proud member of a powerful slaver family, I see no reason to doubt that he was pro-slavery (as a vast majority of humans would've been in his position). If he was anti-slavery, I think he would've told Dany that. He was very progressive and reasonable by the standards of the culture he was raised in, so it's a pity there weren't more like him, but to me there was a clear pro-slavery subtext in him saying violence and cruelty are necessary for greatness and that Meereen has long been a great city. It was like a condensed, watered down version of Xaro's slavery apologia in ADwD.

I think that, on balance, it's fair to infer that Hizdahr was not against slavery. It benefited his social class, plus he generally seems in favour of Ghiscari traditions, which include slavery. Also, while I find his character on the show sympathetic on the whole, I have to acknowledge that the fighting pits that he seems so fond of would've involved slaves in the past, not all of whom would have wanted to fight. In my book, that's pretty horrible.

That said, once slavery is abolished, he makes no attempt to defend it in the way that he defends the tradition of the fighting pits. He says that the pits brought Meereen together, but he never says that slavery did. Also, as I pointed out previously, he got slavery re-abolished in Yunkai. So it could be that he wasn't against slavery, but he wasn't for it either.

The most positive interpretation I can come up with is that he didn't view slavery as one of the traditions that makes Meereen great. He didn't oppose it before Dany arrived, maybe because there was no way to abolish it without a great deal of bloodshed, and even if there was such a struggle the abolitionists probably wouldn't have won (I say this because Hizdahr's father couldn't even win over a majority to not crucifying slave children). However, once Dany arrives, her dragons and soldiers enable her to enforce the abolition of slavery, and Hizdahr is fine with helping to facilitate that. That said, this interpretation is far from the only possible one.

Regarding his comment, "What great thing has ever been accomplished without killing or cruelty?", I believe he said it to support the tradition of the fighting pits rather than slavery. If anything, the fighting pits are better at uniting the people of Meereen in a post-slavery world, because all the fighters are willing, so the freed slaves can get behind the tradition as well (assuming they want to; some might not). I almost feel that Tyrion and Dany disagreeing with Hizdahr on that comment was more disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, because they've both done unpleasant things in order to accomplish their larger goals. Hizdahr's support of the pits seems to me less about slavery and more about the idea that, if something can bring the people of the city together, they won't be fighting in the streets.

That said, it appears that he was at least partially wrong. The fighting pits were reopened, and the Sons of the Harpy hit stronger than ever. While most people were cheering together, clearly there's some significant faction in the city that was not united to everyone else by the affirmation of this brutal cultural institution.

It is interesting that the show made it a point to for us to see that Hizdahr was late to the start of the games. When Dany coldly asked "Where have you been?" Hizdahr responded cryptically, "Just some final preparations."

Although, the contrary evidence would be his stabbing -- it isn't possible (without using magic, I suppose) make sure a person isn't killed after deeply stabbing him in the chest. No way was that some sort of feint to give plausible deniability to Hizdahr.

If Hizdahr knew about the attack and meant it to kill Dany and her advisors, he wouldn't have needed deniability, plausible or otherwise. In his book, Dany would've been dead. Someone setting such a massive operation into motion doesn't plan to fail.

I think that his cryptic comment on arrival was misdirection on the part of the writers. As for what he was actually doing, I'd say there was plenty of business that needed organising related to the great games. Dany didn't even know to clap in order to begin proceedings - Hizdahr had to tell her. So I expect there were several things that needed to be taken care of that Dany had no clue about, that she would have known about if she'd been a Meereenese noble.

[Hos the Hostage]

If Hizdahr knew about the attack and meant it to kill Dany and her advisors, he wouldn't have needed deniability, plausible or otherwise. In his book, Dany would've been dead. Someone setting such a massive operation into motion doesn't plan to fail.

I think that his cryptic comment on arrival was misdirection on the part of the writers. As for what he was actually doing, I'd say there was plenty of business that needed organising related to the great games. Dany didn't even know to clap in order to begin proceedings - Hizdahr had to tell her. So I expect there were several things that needed to be taken care of that Dany had no clue about, that she would have known about if she'd been a Meereenese noble.

Maybe he just went to meet the bookies..

[Estelindis]

Maybe he just went to meet the bookies..

That might've been the case if he hadn't said that the king and queen don't bet on the fights. ;) Of course, he wasn't king yet when he said that, so maybe he had more of a stake in the fight than he let on to Daario. :D

[sb.69]

He's dead. Stop making your own plot.

[WSmith84]

I think that, on balance, it's fair to infer that Hizdahr was not against slavery. It benefited his social class, plus he generally seems in favour of Ghiscari traditions, which include slavery. Also, while I find his character on the show sympathetic on the whole, I have to acknowledge that the fighting pits that he seems so fond of would've involved slaves in the past, not all of whom would have wanted to fight. In my book, that's pretty horrible.

That said, once slavery is abolished, he makes no attempt to defend it in the way that he defends the tradition of the fighting pits. He says that the pits brought Meereen together, but he never says that slavery did. Also, as I pointed out previously, he got slavery re-abolished in Yunkai. So it could be that he wasn't against slavery, but he wasn't for it either.

The most positive interpretation I can come up with is that he didn't view slavery as one of the traditions that makes Meereen great. He didn't oppose it before Dany arrived, maybe because there was no way to abolish it without a great deal of bloodshed, and even if there was such a struggle the abolitionists probably wouldn't have won (I say this because Hizdahr's father couldn't even win over a majority to not crucifying slave children). However, once Dany arrives, her dragons and soldiers enable her to enforce the abolition of slavery, and Hizdahr is fine with helping to facilitate that. That said, this interpretation is far from the only possible one.

Regarding his comment, "What great thing has ever been accomplished without killing or cruelty?", I believe he said it to support the tradition of the fighting pits rather than slavery. If anything, the fighting pits are better at uniting the people of Meereen in a post-slavery world, because all the fighters are willing, so the freed slaves can get behind the tradition as well (assuming they want to; some might not). I almost feel that Tyrion and Dany disagreeing with Hizdahr on that comment was more disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, because they've both done unpleasant things in order to accomplish their larger goals. Hizdahr's support of the pits seems to me less about slavery and more about the idea that, if something can bring the people of the city together, they won't be fighting in the streets.

That said, it appears that he was at least partially wrong. The fighting pits were reopened, and the Sons of the Harpy hit stronger than ever. While most people were cheering together, clearly there's some significant faction in the city that was not united to everyone else by the affirmation of this brutal cultural institution.

Nice post. I agree with your interpretation. I was actually rather enjoying Show!Hizdahr, to the point where I actually felt bad for him whilst Daario was showing off and Dany was practically drooling. Does seem unlikely that he was involved, as it's difficult to give a chest wound and be certain it won't be fatal.

On a slightly different note, did anyone else think it was a little hypocritical of Dany to be all judgemental about watching men fight and die for sport when she was so obviously getting off on Daario's talk about killing people? I don't imagine that is what the writers were going for, but that's how it came across to me. Mind you, I find Show!Danaerys unbearable, so I'm biased.

[doghouse]

Lenny Kravitzdar

I may change my name to this. Just awesome.

[Estelindis]

On a slightly different note, did anyone else think it was a little hypocritical of Dany to be all judgemental about watching men fight and die for sport when she was so obviously getting off on Daario's talk about killing people? I don't imagine that is what the writers were going for, but that's how it came across to me. Mind you, I find Show!Danaerys unbearable, so I'm biased.

Yes, I found this hypocritical too. I don't find Show!Dany completely unbearable - she has many genuinely sympathetic moments - but she is a bit of a car crash in terms of consistency. One moment, she's executing a loyal supporter because he prevented a Son of the Harpy from getting a fair trial. Next moment, she's murdering the head of a noble family without any evidence or trial whatsoever. And here, as you say, she's being turned on by Daario's knife-play and tales from past arenas, while next minute she's disgusted by a death. I wonder if she would have reacted with such disgust if the strong gladiator had been killed, which would have reinforced Daario's point rather than Hizdahr's.

Dany's inconsistency can be interpreted as good writing, if one sees it as reflecting an inner conflict between the desire to make peace and to conquer with fire and blood. But I only sometimes get the impression that this is what the writers are trying to achieve.

I may change my name to this. Just awesome.

Best one of these I've seen so far is Hizdahr's father being referred to as Hizdad. :D

[chris999]

If this were a detective novel, and it really mattered who the big master mind behind the Harpy was, and if there had to be a big twist, my money would be on Daario.

1. He was the only one "questioning" Harpy members - never getting anything tangible out of them.

2. He very conveniently knowns where one poor Harpy member is hidden for him to "question".

3. He is always trying to utilize the Harpy attacks to push Dany towards his own agenda.

4. The Harpy mainly kill unsullied, who are kind of rivals to Daario's troup and his influence on Dany path to direct power.

5. Daario has access to men who might actually be able to kill unsullied in close combat. How convenient they are hidden behind masks.

6. Daario used to be a pit fighter. Who knows what agenda he has against Mereen, the nobility there. Maybe he just wants to see it all burned to the ground. Maybe he has some money riding on something. Maybe he wants to install himself as despot of Merreen. Who knows.

7. He is in the unique position to have muscle (his own troop of merry killers) and information both on Dany and her plans and on Mereen.

8. That speech he gives abotu how the fast guy can always down the strong guy by attacking weak points - that woud fit very well with the Harpy approach to toppling Dany with her unsullied and dragons, and the former masters too in one swoop

However, I do hope there is no reveal like this, but this is just for stylistic reasons. I prefer a perpetually faceless Harpy

Good post.

I have heard of Daario as the 'Harpy' before, but I always thought it was the Shavepate myself. After reading your post I now remember one of the warnings that Quaithe gave to Dany was that someone would betray her out of love. So far Daario is the only person still alive that Dany feels romantically about.

[ShadowKitteh]

That was ridiculous. They had her surrounded, they could have rushed in and ended it right there. Maybe they didn't because Daario is their leader.

If Daario is their leader, why was he killing every harpy he could get his hands on?