ErasmusF Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 And he does. There's been plenty of criticism of GRRM in this forums and elsewhere stating that the story grew out of his control, and that some heavy editing would have helped AFFC and ADWD. I would agree with anyone who said that GRRM is not a very good planner, and that a lot of problems in his novels arise from this (being incapable of predicting when he'll finish a book, scraping the 5 year gap, sepparating Feast and Dance, taking away the two concluding battles from Dance...). And while he is a bad planner, he is an excellent writer. His characters are very real, their motivations are perfectly presented, the plot grows organically, the prose is beautiful, etc. That's not something that can be said of D&D. Lots of people would quibble with your points. How many times do I need to read "must needs" or "mine own" or "words are wind'? D&D have the most popular show in TV. That is not entirely to their credit. Neither is some stilted points they are trying to distill from 100 pages into three minutes all their blame. Move on FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Actually, they got the idea from GRRM himself...so there goes your faulty theory. What theory are you talking about? We were criticizing Selyze's depiction during the burning of Shireen. That has nothing to do with who came up with the idea of the burning itself. Please understand: it's not the WHAT, it's the HOW. The scene was terriblly written. No justification was provided, no proper development, no sense of drama besides morbid screams. George could perfectly devote a chapter explaining how Shireen is sacrificed, and could make it work. Because he is a good writer. D&D are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark the Red Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark the Red Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 What theory are you talking about? We were criticizing Selyze's depiction during the burning of Shireen. That has nothing to do with who came up with the idea of the burning itself. Please understand: it's not the WHAT, it's the HOW. The scene was terriblly written. No justification was provided, no proper development, no sense of drama besides morbid screams. George could perfectly devote a chapter explaining how Shireen is sacrificed, and could make it work. Because he is a good writer. D&D are not. I thought they did a fantastic job with it. They gave PLENTY of justification and foreshadowed it all season long. Stannis grappled with it for several episodes before finally succumbing to the idea...which is why he sent off Davos because he KNEW Davos would somehow interject. Stannis believes this sacrifice is the only way he will be able to take Winterfell, I thought that was pretty well established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 We don't even have to discuss the question that it is bad writing to sacrifice your only child - for what exactly? Better weather? Food? Horses? What has Melisandre promised Stannis in return for this thing? It is not even mentioned in the episode. George may come up with a scenario in which Stannis goes through with the sacrifice of his only child and heir but it will be for a very specific purpose, and the only way he sees, and the stakes will be much higher than they were in the show. If he ends up going down that road in the books at all. Right now, Stannis and Shireen are separated, Stannis may be already dead (or be killed soon - and I'm actually looking forward to TV Brienne killing TV Stannis after TV Ramsay has flayed him somewhat) which means that this such a sacrifice will be not exactly in the near future of the book series. Not to mention that Shireen herself may die soon - either because the wildlings kill her (Val) or because her greyscale returns. Not to mention that Selyse and her people may actually decide to accompany Justin Massey to Braavos, and take Queen Shireen with her, to ensure that everything goes as planned on the sellswords front. I don't see any indication that book Selyse would ever sacrifice Shireen in Stannis' absence. She does not loath her daughter, after all. In fact, book Selyse is the one who loves her daughter, not Stannis. Stannis is indifferent to her at best and considers her his heir (which she legally is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I thought they did a fantastic job with it. They gave PLENTY of justification and foreshadowed it all season long. Stannis grappled with it for several episodes before finally succumbing to the idea...which is why he sent off Davos because he KNEW Davos would somehow interject. Stannis believes this sacrifice is the only way he will be able to take Winterfell, I thought that was pretty well established. I think you are missremembering. Stannis triumphantly leaves Castle Black at 5x05 (Kill the Boy), as a victorious general with clear prospects of victory. Then he doesn't appear in 5x06. The first episode when Stannis was shown to have any trouble with his campain was 5x07 (The Gift), where we see him in the middle of a snowstorm. It's the same episode Melisandre first suggests that Shireen should be sacrificed, and Stannis is infuriated with the idea. In the next episode the Stannis camp is not seen. And then we have 5x09, with the sacrifice. If you think that this is a proper build up to showing how a loving father can sacrifice his only daughter... then we'll better leave it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think you are missremembering. Stannis triumphantly leaves Castle Black at 5x05 (Kill the Boy), as a victorious general with clear prospects of victory. Then he doesn't appear in 5x06. The first episode when Stannis was shown to have any trouble with his campain was 5x07 (The Gift), where we see him in the middle of a snowstorm. It's the same episode Melisandre first suggests that Shireen should be sacrificed, and Stannis is infuriated with the idea. In the next episode the Stannis camp is not seen. And then we have 5x09, with the sacrifice. If you think that this is a proper build up to showing how a loving father can sacrifice his only daughter... then we'll better leave it here. The show only has so much screen time to work with. They introduced the idea in ep7 where we see his camp is deteriorating badly due to weather and desertion, though they really introduced the possibility when Stannis brought his daughter and wife along with him to the siege in ep 5. Mel suggests the idea and Stannis rejects it. We get the comforting scene with Stannis and Shireen after. Ramsay's destruction of their food stores and siege equipment is the last straw. Though he didn't appear in ep 6 or ep 9, I think its safe to assume things have been going poorly in camp Stannis and now they are out of food. He realizes his only option. Clearly, if it was book written or if we had more episodes to work with D&D could have had a longer buildup (like what they are doing all the hinting on Olly and FTW this season), but with the limited screen time they had, I thought they did a good job. It was still unexpected for me and I was 1/2 expecting Stannis to break and call it off. It does fit with his "by any means necessary" motif quite well though. All in all, I think they did a solid job with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgf Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It gives Selyse more depth as she's not just a blind zealot; plus it contrast her with stannis. Selyse thinks she's a zealot but when it came down to it she was a parent first. Stannis thinks himself a cynic, yet when it came time to chose he made the hard choice that he thought he needed to to become the hero humanity needs to survive. Makes Lady Mustache more interesting and makes stannis' decision more powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It gives Selyse more depth as she's not just a blind zealot; plus it contrast her with stannis. Selyse thinks she's a zealot but when it came down to it she was a parent first. Stannis thinks himself a cynic, yet when it came time to chose he made the hard choice that he thought he needed to to become the hero humanity needs to survive. Makes Lady Mustache more interesting and makes stannis' decision more powerful. When the sacrifice ultimately fails, Stannis' rage will be a sight to behold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 When the sacrifice ultimately fails, Stannis' rage will be a sight to behold. From what we've heard in E10 preview, it doesn't fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 From what we've heard in E10 preview, it doesn't fail. Unless the good weather they get isn't related to the sacrifice at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I wasn't surprised about Selyse at all, after I saw that pic of her sobbing on the snow and Melly suggested burning Shireen, I knew that she is the one who would try to save Shireen, I was predicting it. Its a classic TV trope, a parent who claims to hate the child for whatever reason and a parent who dearly loves the child and then when child dies - its the parent who "hated" her would be the one trying to save/protect it vs the one who "loved her" and lead her to her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 From what we've heard in E10 preview, it doesn't fail. A respite from the snows doesn't guarantee Stannis victory at WF. Although, I'm hoping he does win that battle. Fanatic and misguided as he is, Stannis is still preferable to the Bolton regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Mulder Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Personally I thought she was going to offer herself to the fires instead or I thought she would run to Shireen and burn with her. She is useless to the cause and this would save her daughter and her husband's army. Plus free Stannis up to marry a fertile new wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The other prince Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 We don't even have to discuss the question that it is bad writing to sacrifice your only child - for what exactly? Better weather? Food? Horses? What has Melisandre promised Stannis in return for this thing? It is not even mentioned in the episode. George may come up with a scenario in which Stannis goes through with the sacrifice of his only child and heir but it will be for a very specific purpose, and the only way he sees, and the stakes will be much higher than they were in the show. I think we do need to discuss it. I think the scene was fine. What do you mean - for what exactly. His men were going to starve and freeze to death. That would have been the end of Stannis's claim to the throne. Remember he thinks he has to be be king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stannis doesn't care about the lives of his men. They are tools. Not to mention that the show gets things wrong (as usual). The point of Stannis' campaign is not to win the Iron Throne at that point, it is to ensure that the Boltons aren't coming for him at the Wall. He has no intention of marching farther south than Winterfell as he knows that his enemy is waiting in the North. If I had the chance to burn the next guy and to burn my only child I'd chose the next guy. The TV show did not really establish why king's blood is this important. Blood magic works fine without that as well as with it - ask Mirri Maz Duur. The show as well as the book will have to give us a really good reason why exactly this sacrifice is necessary and what exactly 'god' is going to give in return. The weather changes all the time, after all, who knows that it truly changed because of the royal ashes? Changed weather is not going to grant Stannis a victory in battle, either. I'm looking forward to Ramsay flaying and reekifying Stannis, by the way. If there is a character who does not deserve a quick death at Brienne's hands it is Stannis. Dany feeding him to Drogon piece by piece would be fine, too - and a nice reversal of the Aegon-Rhaenyra thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeturKemur Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 She's been trying to convince herself that it was the necessary thing to do since Melisandre first told her about it...but there was always doubt in her voice. It finally broke through, but only when it was too late to do anything about it.Very tragic.This is exactly how I saw it. When she heard Shireen screaming out for her, which I assume was a first, her maternal instict and doubt definitely overcame the religious fanaticism. It'll be interesting to see how this changes her in upcoming episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hol Horse Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 For the same reason she doesn't have a mustache in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HodoringHodor Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 First there was anger about Stannis burning Shireen based on the leaks before the episode had aired and more anger after it was aired, proving that D&D are worthless hacks and the show will lose all viewers. When it was revealed Shireen's burning comes from GRRM that angle was dropped instantly and now it's all about Selyse breaking down which proves that D&D are worthless hacks. I'm enjoying these threads more than the show now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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