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Selyse character reversal (SPOILERS)


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Stannis:



- willing to burn his nephews


- burns his in-laws


- murders his brother (via shadow-baby)


- willing to use nephews blood for victory


- burns his daughter



i'm seeing a progressively desperate man who will do anything to win and claim his destiny. am i wrong here?


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Stannis:

- willing to burn his nephews

- burns his in-laws

- murders his brother (via shadow-baby)

- willing to use nephews blood for victory

- burns his daughter

i'm seeing a progressively desperate man who will do anything to win and claim his destiny. am i wrong here?

Nope...it's exactly the progression I've seen, as well. And he keeps justifying his ever-growing list of terrible deeds by telling himself that it's for the greater good.

It's how good men are turned into evil men.

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Show Selyse has had a few moments of doubt come across her face, she just always corrects herself before she opens her mouth. Her turn at the end just struck me as pure biology, her daughter's screams just flipped that switch in her brain and she was acting on instinct rather than her learned devotion.

I think that Selyse was jealous of Shireen in a way. He loved their daughter but not her. Depite that, deep down inside, her daughter was the only thing that she had, the only real connection she had with her husband. I can't predict what happens to Stannis but its hard to see Selyse lasting much longer. Its hard to see Stannis finding another wife considering the fact that he has sacrificed his own daughter and will consider the suicide or death of his as a result of this as an oppurtunity to make a more fortuitous marriage.

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I think that Selyse was jealous of Shireen in a way. He loved their daughter but not her. Depite that, deep down inside, her daughter was the only thing that she had, the only real connection she had with her husband. I can't predict what happens to Stannis but its hard to see Selyse lasting much longer. Its hard to see Stannis finding another wife considering the fact that he has sacrificed his own daughter and will consider the suicide or death of his as a result of this as an oppurtunity to make a more fortuitous marriage.

Sansa Baratheon anyone?
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Sansa Baratheon anyone?

Hey if he can find a wife who can keep popping out kids there is no way he can lose. Seriously, its hard to see him lasting much longer. I can't see anyone of importance in Westeros backing him after him doing this, ecspecially with a fundamentilist movement seizing power in the capitol. I guess he might last til the end of next season but its hard to see even that happening at least in the TV show. Book Stannis is another matter.

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Like I was saying in the other thread :

book!Cat despise Jon

show!Cat love Jon, D&D even going out of their way to make her state it with a touching child illness story

book!Cersei make sure not to have Robert's babies and get his bastards killed

show!Cersei is shown crying about some lost baby she had with Robert

show!Cersei also don't order to kill his bastards

show!Karsi can't fight undead children if it was to save her life

It's just that D&D have decided that mothers can't be shown not displaying love for children, in general. It's what I'd call "positive sexism".

Only notable exception is Faullaria ready to kill a young girl to avenge Oberyn, but hey she's Dornish and people are like that in the Orient (+ Myrcella isn't that young).

What the hell are you talking about? Book Selyse is very protective of her daughter. D&D's Selyse until this episode was nothing like book-Selyse.

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I don't award as much credit to the actress as some here; the only note she ever played around Shireen that I picked up on was disdain. Her only evident motherly affection was for her pickled miscarriages. I also don't think there was any concerted effort to suggest that Selyse somehow knew what Mel was planning to do with Shireen. And there was no clear turning point or breaking point in the burning to prompt Selyse's change of heart. IMO, this was a reversal for the sake of having one, and it was unearned.


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Stannis:

- willing to burn his nephews

- burns his in-laws

- murders his brother (via shadow-baby)

- willing to use nephews blood for victory

- burns his daughter

i'm seeing a progressively desperate man who will do anything to win and claim his destiny. am i wrong here?

Add to the "desperate", a man who would make a cruel and unjust king. I really hope he doesn't end up on the throne.

Back on the subject of Selyse, it's interesting that so many people take it for granted that all mothers have an overwhelming motherly instinct. There are countless true stories of women who have viciously abused or even killed their own children. Is it so hard to imagine Selyse would have felt no pain at the sight of Shireen being sacrificed when she so blindly believed in her god, just as she was elated when her brother burned in an earlier season? I personally would have accepted a staunch and deluded Selyse more easily than the scene that was played out in the show.

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I don't award as much credit to the actress as some here; the only note she ever played around Shireen that I picked up on was disdain. Her only evident motherly affection was for her pickled miscarriages. I also don't think there was any concerted effort to suggest that Selyse somehow knew what Mel was planning to do with Shireen. And there was no clear turning point or breaking point in the burning to prompt Selyse's change of heart. IMO, this was a reversal for the sake of having one, and it was unearned.

So you missed the scene this season where Selyse gets really worried about Shireen talking to Gilly and warns her not to be so trusting?

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Just curious, do you have kids? :)

In 99.9% of all cases, a parent will do anything for a child and love it unconditionally. There are, however, cases where a mother or father don't care about their offspring. Twisted ideologies help fanatics overcome their instincts, too. Look at all the honor killings in the Middle East. Those are usually parents offing their kids.

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It's hardly surprising. Talking about something in theory and then seeing something being carried out in front of your eyes is a very different experience. You will never know how you will react when the actual thing is being done right in front of you. Emotions do not equate to logic. You can't predict emotions.


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Children question:

No. But I know that there are women who both despise becoming pregnant, and who very much don't want children, nor like the children they have very much (or at all). Selyse being introduced as such a character - a character who actually wept out of joy when he own brother was burned in season 4 - it makes no sense really that she would actually want to save Shireen (or care about her).

Writing stuff:

There are very few motivational or character flaws in the books George writes, especially not with his POV characters. In fact, this is what makes those books - that you can actually take his characters as real people (at least for the most part). I'd say that if George had the chance to actually finish the whole story before he published any of it - after all, it is one huge book and not multiple loosely interconnected, independent novels - we could reasonably assume that even those weak points would no longer be in there.

But if you want a class in erratic character development and bad dialogue D&D are your guys.

"Oh, how the children cried aloud! Trembling; they see their brothers; the mother binding her son, lest he profane the sacrifice by shuddering; the father making the ritual blessing to sanctify the slaughter.

Compassionate women strangle their own children; pure virgins shriek bitterly; brides kiss their bridegrooms farewell-and all rush eagerly to be slaughtered"

Anonymous Poem "The Martyrs of Mainz"

based on actual historical events.

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Stannis:

- willing to burn his nephews

- burns his in-laws

- murders his brother (via shadow-baby)

- willing to use nephews blood for victory

- burns his daughter

i'm seeing a progressively desperate man who will do anything to win and claim his destiny. am i wrong here?

If you count his deeds in the books, he also let his older brother and king die while he could have easily warned him of the imminent danger he was facing, which conveniently made him King once Robert passed away.

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What the hell are you talking about? Book Selyse is very protective of her daughter. D&D's Selyse until this episode was nothing like book-Selyse.

All i was saying is D&D make every mother character care for children.

Even if they made Selyse far colder with her daughter than book version, they couldn't resist making her switch to crying mother mode, like they couldn't resist making Cat show love for Jon, including some fanfictional Cersei-Robert baby she mourned, etc...

It's strange in a show showing so many rapes and murders, but they seem to think mothers not showing any maternal qualities would be over the top.

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