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(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.


Snark88

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The people of Westeros wouldn't accept him regardless if he burned his daughter or not. He was already viewed as a kinslayer.

By who besides Brienne? Most people believe that she killed Renly.

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Yeah, Burn the infidels!!! Ooops, one of them is God himself........

Seriously, this is so disgusting.

Could people please learn that Martin and the showmakers, contrary to their creations, are real existing people who can feel offended.

 

My favourite reaction after the RW was one internet user who claimed "George Martin is obviously the kind of man who tortures kittens for pleasure."

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Given the conversation that Stannis has with Massey in the books (okay, it's a released Theon chapter from TWOW, but one which was officially published in some versions of ADWD) - "if you hear reports that I am dead, continue hiring sellswords on Shireen's behalf anyway" - it is impossible to believe that Stannis intends Shireen to die: if anything he would be prepared to put his own life on the line so that she can live. In other words, I honestly believe that this is the one thing in the books that he could NOT POSSIBLY do.


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I think one real problem is they failed at making the snow tempest an event.


If they had teased the tempest by making it appear at the Wall and people like Jon worry for Stannis as the tempest is moving south...


If they had produced some catastrophe movie inspired scene to show how bad it was.


If they had shown the moment when Stannis forces were forced to stop, shown more the part where Stannis continues to advance but lose more and more men/horses, established a contrast between before the tempest and after.


etc...



It could have been made Stannis situation something looking more dramatic and more desserving to sacrifice Shireen to end that.

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Shireen's burning was the most horrible thing in the whole show to me. Now I can understand the fury and despair of my unsullied frieds after the the Red Wedding, I can even relate to their oaths never to watch again.

And yet I will go on on loving books and show.

There is no need to play one awful moment against the other and yet I am doing this on purpose since I am enraged about the hypocrisy around the whole Sansa debate when we already could be quite sure that the burning of Shireen would happen.

But Sansa getting raped is not at all comparable to this. Sansa is still alive and still has a story to tell, she is still there and just like Shireen getting burned Sansa's rape or abuse did not yet happen in the books but happened in the show.

"Shut up there! Meh! Whatcha upset, because you just got a lil bit raped? Phew! A bunch of people get burned every day, feel lucky you're just getting raped every night and not burned. Crybaby! Hypocrite!... That's right, I've just decided that all you feminazis who cry about rape are HYPOCRITES! It makes total sense!"

Yes, I am shocked about the death of one of my favorite characters as anyone would be. And I am furious bout the glaring hypocrisy of some posters concerning the episodes past. Where is the rage about that other young girl who after all is dead?! You won't read me raging about events since that cruelty like the other one is part of the story.

Martin and the showmakers will know why this turn was necessary.

:rofl:

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Book Stannis isn't show Stannis. Book Stannis is a more nuanced character who agonizes a lot more over his decisions and doesn't burn people as easily as show Stannis.



I dunno if Stannis will burn Shireen in the books but what the show should have done was to make show Stannis agonize more over this decision and spend more time in his camp. It should have taken a lot more of this episode. Also Ramsay's commando mission was kind of ridiculous. They should also have spend more time and given more gravity to potraying the desperation of their circumstance. Of course there is some of that in this episode but not good enough.



The possibility of this happening in the books reminds me the scene with Stannis with the whole burning Edric Storm/Gendry where it felt quite differently in the books. I find the more grey book Stannis (who while influenced by Melisandre is more of his own man and less influenced than in the show) to be a more compelling character. Ultimately the show would benefit by spending more time exploring some scenes that have a lot more potential for compelling stories over others which would allow it to also show some more ambiguity and complexity found in these characters.



* I can't say I am sure about it and I certainly see it as a possibility that it could happen but I don't think Stannis will burn Shireen in the books but I do think she will be burnt. The Nissa Nissa story and Melisandre and Shireen being at the Wall makes me think of Melisandre sacrificing her kings blood to resurrect Jon Snow. But we will see.


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The burning of Shireen isn't the issue with episode 9. The issue is that it didn't make sense from a storytelling perspective *within* the show, books completely aside.



Just a few episodes ago we had Stannis telling Shireen how they told him she wasn't going to survive and he told them all to go to hell and called in every apocethary, every maester he could to get them to save her life and they did.



Now, without any reasonable explanation, we have a Stannis who will willingly burn his daughter alive based on a prophecy. Show Stannis comes off as just a power hungry religious zealot in this episode. We needed a lot more explanation of the motivations and reasons that forced him to conclude he HAD to sacrifice Shireen. The way it was done was NOT believable, like Stannis just took the red woman's word for it.


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So where does Davos go when he finds out? Pretty sure he is going to abandon Stannis's cause now.

Looks like Davos will be at Castle Black for the finale, he's carrying a letter, even though it may not be pink.

Wherever smugglers go? Or to Dany I guess, they need to keep giving her good advisors. Hopefully Daario dies to make room for him.

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So Selyse will probably order to have Shireen burned behind Stannis his back in the books, it's not that hard to bend that plot around Stannis his absence. She may then end up throwing herself off the wall with regret or what not. And if you want to take it further: Instead, Jon rises, being the nearest proxy with royal blood, assuming he gets stabbed.



As for Davos, either one of these:



* He takes the black, out of shame, being a mentor for a while to Jon.


* He sets out to kill Mel at all costs.



As for TV Davos:


* He ends up captured, pink letter is instead about Davos, he learns from Sansa that Rickon is alive and escapes to go find Rickon.


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The burning of Shireen isn't the issue with episode 9. The issue is that it didn't make sense from a storytelling perspective *within* the show, books completely aside.

Just a few episodes ago we had Stannis telling Shireen how they told him she wasn't going to survive and he told them all to go to hell and called in every apocethary, every maester he could to get them to save her life and they did.

Now, without any reasonable explanation, we have a Stannis who will willingly burn his daughter alive based on a prophecy. Show Stannis comes off as just a power hungry religious zealot in this episode. We needed a lot more explanation of the motivations and reasons that forced him to conclude he HAD to sacrifice Shireen. The way it was done was NOT believable, like Stannis just took the red woman's word for it.

Whilst I agree with your comments about Stannis, I'm afraid to say that I did find issue with the scene; namely that I couldn't watch it. I've put up with some awful stuff from this show, but a little girl being burned alive is where I draw the line.

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Come on guys lay off a bit. Stannis was a serious role model for some people, including myself.

This reminds me of the Alester Florent scene. In the books we know he was burnt for treason.

But the cancerous TV show said he was burnt because he wouldn't follow The Lord of Light.

Im sure Shireen will die, Stannis won't be around to stop it, let alone carry it out himself.

They killed my favourite character (Stannis) for mere shock factor.

A ROLE MODEL? The first scene he is in he is buring folks alive.

NO ONE on Game of Thrones should be a role model for ANYONE.

I'm sorry to yell like that...but what you said just really terrified me.

Stanis couldn't even get 1/2 his own bannermen to fight for him, and when Renly died and the other half had no choice, he marched them off to King's Landing and got them slaughtered. Then he goes to Bravos to beg for money so he can buy more (BUY...a leader doesn't have to buy their followers), and he's half way gotten them all killed now, too.

Now, he just burned his daughter alive for a fantasy he has because some wanna-be witch has bewitched him with what is between her thighs.

Stanis is a terrible, terrible man - it's been evident since the beginning that he couldn't lead a pack of wolves to a carcass, but he proved tonight just how truly terrible and desperate he really is.

I'm sorry - this has been so obvious since the first page of paper the man appeared on, GRRM has pointed it out all along the way, while this was terrible it was not a surprise. It's like people who didn't understand that Renly was gay from the books and thought the show made it up - it's all right there to see. And in the next book, it will all be right there as well - I have no doubt.

I wish GRRM would release the chapter of the book (I presume it's early on anyway) that it happens in, just so folks can get a reality check and stop blaming the show for what GRRM has planned.

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Davos - Master of Ships? As I Dany fan I would love that but I think he will be staying in the North for the foreseeable future. Rickon, I guess?

Jon I think would be the logical choice not that D&D seem to understand the concept.

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I never get how this turns into a discussion whether or not people like or dislike a character. To me it's simply not about who I like and who I don't like, but if it makes sense in the context of that character and its motivation. What I actually do like about ASOIAF is that I get to experience the stories from different POVs and while maybe not always agreeing with their opinion I can understand them and somewhat relate to them.


Sure, from a somewhat objective point of view Cersei is a pretty horrible person, but ASOIAF manages to situationally put me in her place in her POVs and makes me understand her motivation and that she doesn't simply do things just because that's what villains do, but because in her very own mind and world that is simply what makes sense to her. Same is true for Dany and/or Stannis, I understand why they both feel they have a claim to the throne and why they do what they do based on their character (even though Stannis is not even the best example as he doesn't even have his own POVs, but I basically feel I "get him" the way Davos sees him).



So to me whether or not I "like" what someone is doing is not really based on my own moral standards or even if I would wish they would do the "good" or the "right" thing, but it's about if it makes sense to me based on their motivation and goals as previously shown by them.



And this is where I run into problems with Stannis-Shireen: I do believe that in the book it could be eventually possible for Stannis to make the decision he now made in the show, but there would still have to be a build up to that, I just didn't have the feeling while reading he is quiet at that point yet, but it would need some more convincing from Mel or another trigger to make him go to that "dark" (as I would consider burning your own child alive is pretty much the equivalent of finally putting on the Darth Vader mask to complete your transformtion to the evil side).



In the show I almost have the feeling he was already closer from the beginning as I had the feeling he was even more reservered to the whole magic/religion aspect in the books than he was on the show and then in this season they made him maybe even a little more sympathetic to the viewer by showing him and Shireen of course but also when he is talking to Sam or makes grammar jokes at the nightswatch meetings, which I can only asume now was for a bigger shock value, because I would now have rather seen that screen time spent on showing how he gets more and more convinced of his role as AA and the king's blood story (it would have e.g. immensely helped to emphazise that all 3 leeches eventually worked and he therefore believes in it now)



The first scene from GoT where I remember feeling similar is actually the moment Cat releases Jaime in the show. In the books she does it after hearing that two of her sons have been killed and she is a desperate mother that after losing two children is doing everything she can to save her two daughters. In the show she just does it anyway without that motivation and that always bothered me because I feel that this last thing pushing someone over the edge of doing something they would probably not do otherwise is what makes the whole thing more interesting and relatable. And I guess the same thing bothers me about Stannis now, I just don't feel the way the story was told that it was completely believable and in character in that very moment.


So while it is of course not completly "out of character" for Cat to release Jaime or for Stannis to have Shireen burned, but I feel that it is slightly off character in the timing and motivation context they are in compared to the one they were (or will eventually be in) in the books.


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I'm sorry to yell like that...but what you said just really terrified me.

What terrifies me far greater than the existance of fandom is the inability to realize that GRRM is not the showrunner. He hasn't written an episode for some time now as well. Stop blaming him for the show's awful writing.

Not yelling this, by the way, as i have already exhausted myself by accidentally hitting the caps button for an hour today, my voice has unfortunately not recovered yet, i may need to SEE A DOCTOR, OH NO NOT AGAIN

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What terrifies me far greater than the existance of fandom is the inability to realize that GRRM is not the showrunner. He hasn't written an episode for some time now as well. Stop blaming him for the show's awful writing.

Show apologists #1 action of choice is to deflect anything negative to GRRM so their heroes D&D can't get blamed.

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Show apologists #1 action of choice is to deflect anything negative to GRRM so their heroes D&D can't get blamed.

What terrifies me far greater than the existance of fandom is the inability to realize that GRRM is not the showrunner. He hasn't written an episode for some time now as well. Stop blaming him for the show's awful writing.

I'm sorry, did you guys miss that this is per GRRM? This will be in WoW.

I really hope he releases the chapter soon. But of course, show haters will claim that they somehow forced him to write it, right?

The show and the books have been very clear this event was going to take place. We all hoped it wouldn't, but just because you guys can't read the subtext that was always there, doesn't mean it wasn't so.

Just because you don't like something does not mean it's "bad writing" - they have left so many clues and this has been built up for several years, it's not "bad writing" it's "inattentive viewing/reading". If they didn't do it, that would have been bad writing - because they have left the trail of breadcrumbs to follow for quite some time.

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