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(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.


Snark88

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I'm sorry, did you guys miss that this is per GRRM? This will be in WoW.

I really hope he releases the chapter soon. But of course, show haters will claim that they somehow forced him to write it, right?

The show and the books have been very clear this event was going to take place. We all hoped it wouldn't, but just because you guys can't read the subtext that was always there, doesn't mean it wasn't so.

Just because you don't like something does not mean it's "bad writing" - they have left so many clues and this has been built up for several years, it's not "bad writing" it's "inattentive viewing/reading". If they didn't do it, that would have been bad writing - because they have left the trail of breadcrumbs to follow for quite some time.

The point is not that Shireen gets burned (which was awful and I didn't watch), but rather that Stannis perpetrates it.

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RE- Role Model...

I don't think Stannis was ever meant to be one by GRRM but if it was the case, I don't think him burning Shireen reduce this aspect in the absolute.

I mean all Stannis is about is "saving the realm/humanity is more important than one child life". You have to be ready to make hard choices, prioritizing collective interest and all that.

That he applies this principle even to his own child only makes it stronger.

He's not someone who will sacrifice unknowns only, he's someone ready to pay the price with his own family blood. He's the guy who cut the guy who saved his life (and now main supporter) fingers because of his principles.

The problem in the show is more the context (I'm 99% sure it won't be something like that in the books) of him doing so just because his army is *vaguely* snowbound, and with very little proof Mel has any true power (as one of the three leeches hasn't worked yet).

If in the books he ends sacrifying Shireen to say have more chance in the fight against the Others (for an endgame related battle not some feud with puny Boltons), after getting even more proofs sacrifices are working, etc... I'd only call that character coherence and courage.

Which make it hard to believe and support is him doing that when he has reasons to doubt Mel powers, and in a situation that don't look that much desperate (just eat the burned horses and move on, it's just snowing a little, D&D have completely failed at making the storm look important enough).

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Show apologists #1 action of choice is to deflect anything negative to GRRM so their heroes D&D can't get blamed.

I wonder what your reaction will be if in TWoW Shireen is really burned at Stannis' orders.

The point is, calling someone a liar without a shred of proof is poor manners. We don't what happens in TWoW. OTOH, that Stannis will break and sacrifice Shireen has been theorized since forever, so it's not like if it was coming out of nowhere.

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The point is not that Shireen gets burned (which was awful and I didn't watch), but rather that Stannis perpetrates it.

Not just that, it's all about the when and where and how and why.

Since that can't all be the same for the show & books for reasons already pointed out a few dozens times in this thread, it is absolutely not acceptable to shift blame onto GRRM for this terribly written storyline.

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In season 2 Melisandre told Stannis his future

"Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear…and it will all be worth it, because you are the Son of Fire, you are the Warrior of Light"

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I wonder what your reaction will be if in TWoW Shireen is really burned at Stannis' orders.

The point is, calling someone a liar without a shred of proof is poor manners. We don't what happens in TWoW. OTOH, that Stannis will break and sacrifice Shireen has been theorized since forever, so it's not like if it was coming out of nowhere.

Yes, because if the show had had Ned Stark randomly jump off a cliff and kill himself because he felt down that day, and Catelyn killed Robb and then herself because she was crazy, that would totally be the same things as in the books, because "They also die in the books, innit!"
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OK, I think people are missing each other points here...



1. We have the information that this came from GRRM's mouth, per the words of the producers. Can we call them liars? Well, this is internet and we can do anything, but it would be unsubstantiated. So, we have to presume that the burning happens and that Stannis is the one giving orders.



2. What got messed in the show is not the burning, but the context of it. We are speaking about guy prepared to hunger himself, someone whose will couldn't have been bent by Ramsay's "20 good men". The context here is missing.



3. If Stannis chooses to burn Shireen in TWOW, I expect to be for reason far more grave than lack of food. Furthermore, I expect Stannis to have the real debate, to be challenged on every level, to question every single thing regarding AAR and himself before doing it. Making him like a villain in this situation is easy. In what GRRM plans to do, I suppose will be a bit more difficult to discard him as someone "worse than Joffrey and Ramsay".


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A ROLE MODEL? The first scene he is in he is buring folks alive.

A lie. Take it out. What credibility can you have to talk about Stannis and his motivations if you have to start with a lie?

You also mix things from the show (which really hurt Stannis portrayal) with what is in the books in some attempt to build a strawman you can burn. Just to refresh your memory about the books, he never goes to beg for money (Tycho Nestoris comes to him) and he did a double attack on King's Landing that would have succeeded if it wasn't because of Tyrion's wit and clansmen. And to refresh your memory on the show, in the first scene he is present, he witnesses how Melisandre is burning the symbols of the Seven, not people.

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I'm sorry, did you guys miss that this is per GRRM? This will be in WoW.

I really hope he releases the chapter soon. But of course, show haters will claim that they somehow forced him to write it, right?

The show and the books have been very clear this event was going to take place. We all hoped it wouldn't, but just because you guys can't read the subtext that was always there, doesn't mean it wasn't so.

Just because you don't like something does not mean it's "bad writing" - they have left so many clues and this has been built up for several years, it's not "bad writing" it's "inattentive viewing/reading". If they didn't do it, that would have been bad writing - because they have left the trail of breadcrumbs to follow for quite some time.

It is bad writing in the show. Context matters.

I'm sure Shireen will be burned in the books and GRRM might have told D&D that. But it cannot possibly happen under the same circumstances as in the show. First of all, Shireen is not even with Stannis so for Stannis to order the execution of Shireen, he either needs to go back to the Wall (which seems unlikely) or she needs to come to him. Either way this will take quite a lot of time. I suspect that Melisandre will be the one to burn Shireen in the books without Stannis' consent, which is a huge difference compared to the scene we got in the last episode.

The only way I can see Stannis burn Shireen willingly in the books is if he's in a truly desperate situation. Like, the White Walkers have surrounded them and are about to slaughter them all. Remember, this is the same Stannis that held Storm's End for a year and would rather eat rats than surrender. This Stannis would never sacrifice his daughter and only heir just because some of their tents/horses were set on fire and the weather is bad. The circumstances in the show are nowhere near as bad as in the books and there Stannis explicitly states that there will be no sacrifices and that his men better start praying.

In the show it's terrible writing because:

- The desperation of Stannis' situation is extremely underwhelming and should've received way more screentime/attention. The whole attack from Ramsay's 20 ninjas is laughably bad.

- Selyse doing a full 180 makes no sense. She was set up as a crazy woman so far and it would make far more sense for Stannis to drop down to his knees at that last moment.

- All the happy scenes with Shireen could be seen as foreshadowing but Stannis' current decision is a full 180 switch from his previous scene with Shireen. Show!Stannis is even more protective and caring of Shireen than the book version.

- Balon isn't even dead so there's less confirmation that Melisandre's powers work than in the books.

- It seems that getting good weather is the only purpose of their sacrifice of Shireen. It is underwhelming and unlike Stannis, to say the least.

The whole scene just screams "SHOCK VALUE" to me and I don't understand how anyone could consider it good writing.

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Yes, because if the show had had Ned Stark randomly jump off a cliff and kill himself because he felt down that day, and Catelyn killed Robb and then herself because she was crazy, that would totally be the same things as in the books, because "They also die in the books, innit!"

Really we're dealing with people whose reading comprehension is stuck at grade 3 level. I can't even bother to answer their inane questions.

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I wonder what your reaction will be if in TWoW Shireen is really burned at Stannis' orders.

The point is, calling someone a liar without a shred of proof is poor manners. We don't what happens in TWoW. OTOH, that Stannis will break and sacrifice Shireen has been theorized since forever, so it's not like if it was coming out of nowhere.

If it happens, it will be in entirely different circumstances. It will certainly not be related to the Battle of Ice. But I do not think it will happen. Stannis and Shireen are miles apart separated by a snow storm. You really think it's a coincidence that in the show they contrived to have Shireen, Mel and Selyse accompany Stannis on his march? It was so this scenario could be forced and the blame could be shifted by Stannis.

Pretty much everyone thought Shireen would be burned. No one who has actually engaged with the books thinks it would be Stannis doing it, not in this manner. Not for something so trivial.

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I wonder what your reaction will be if in TWoW Shireen is really burned at Stannis' orders.

The point is, calling someone a liar without a shred of proof is poor manners. We don't what happens in TWoW. OTOH, that Stannis will break and sacrifice Shireen has been theorized since forever, so it's not like if it was coming out of nowhere.

That's what confounds me. I know these are not easy books to read, but it's all there. It's just like when folks were shocked when Renly turned out gay on the show - like it was some invention.

Here's the catch - OK, let's say Stannis isn't there when it happens in the books. That makes him even more pathetic - that he can't even stand there and watch. Anyone remember what Jon told Bran about having to look while ordering someone to death, way back at the very beginning?

If folks really believe that they are going to do it behind Stannis back...then I don't know what alternative book series they are reading. Because it's not ASOIAF. Stannis is the worst kind of religious zealot - he doesn't even believe in the religion but since he's been convinced it was granting his magical wishes, he goes along with it. He only got his first full army by murdering his brother in the most cowardly way possible (couldn't even fight him face to face, he had to use a spirit from the womb of a whore), he got them massacred because of his terrible plan to take Kings Landing, then he had to beg practically on his knees for funding, with which he bought soldiers (since no one would follow him) whom he has now led in another terrible plan and they are now all dying in the snow.

He's a desperate, pathetic man. This has always been plainly clear - right in black and white - it's just that folks seemingly completely ignored it and now are shocked that he's done yet another awful terrible thing because his poor leadership skills have yet again failed. He has failed at everything he has done. Every signal has told him "just go back to Dragonstone, you are not going to be king" but he needs it so badly he just won't stop being stubborn. He has never once shown any affection or true desire to lead Westeros, or it's people - there is nothing noble about him whatsoever, he's just a simple, single-minded man looking for the easiest ways out because of his pride, nothing else.

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The funniest part is that book stannis is marching on WF with far worst conditions than showstannis. And what does he intend to do? To die in battle and let his men and the IronBank continue fighting for shireen.

Its written for anyone who wants to check it out. Even Elio.

How can you convince us this comes from the books and is on character?

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That's what confounds me. I know these are not easy books to read, but it's all there. It's just like when folks were shocked when Renly turned out gay on the show - like it was some invention.

Here's the catch - OK, let's say Stannis isn't there when it happens in the books. That makes him even more pathetic - that he can't even stand there and watch. Anyone remember what Jon told Bran about having to look while ordering someone to death, way back at the very beginning?

If folks really believe that they are going to do it behind Stannis back...then I don't know what alternative book series they are reading. Because it's not ASOIAF. Stannis is the worst kind of religious zealot - he doesn't even believe in the religion but since he's been convinced it was granting his magical wishes, he goes along with it. He only got his first full army by murdering his brother in the most cowardly way possible (couldn't even fight him face to face, he had to use a spirit from the womb of a whore), he got them massacred because of his terrible plan to take Kings Landing, then he had to beg practically on his knees for funding, with which he bought soldiers (since no one would follow him) whom he has now led in another terrible plan and they are now all dying in the snow.

He's a desperate, pathetic man. This has always been plainly clear - right in black and white - it's just that folks seemingly completely ignored it and now are shocked that he's done yet another awful terrible thing because his poor leadership skills have yet again failed. He has failed at everything he has done. Every signal has told him "just go back to Dragonstone, you are not going to be king" but he needs it so badly he just won't stop being stubborn. He has never once shown any affection or true desire to lead Westeros, or it's people - there is nothing noble about him whatsoever, he's just a simple, single-minded man looking for the easiest ways out because of his pride, nothing else.

When people say "Stannis won't be there" they mean he won't even know about it. It will be behind his back. Stannis is at Winterfell in a massive snowstorm and Mel, Selyse and Shireen are at The Wall. Shireen's death just physically cannot happen as it does in the show.

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If folks really believe that they are going to do it behind Stannis back...then I don't know what alternative book series they are reading. Because it's not ASOIAF. Stannis is the worst kind of religious zealot - he doesn't even believe in the religion but since he's been convinced it was granting his magical wishes, he goes along with it. He only got his first full army by murdering his brother in the most cowardly way possible (couldn't even fight him face to face, he had to use a spirit from the womb of a whore), he got them massacred because of his terrible plan to take Kings Landing, then he had to beg practically on his knees for funding, with which he bought soldiers (since no one would follow him) whom he has now led in another terrible plan and they are now all dying in the snow.

You are confusing book and show. Stannis don't beg for funding in the books, and he has a bunch of loyal followers (or ambitious ones betting on him like the Florents), and add to that the Northern clansmen who have their own motives (and it's to keep their support he has to pull the terrible march on Winterfell plan).

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It is bad writing in the show. Context matters.

I don't think its bad writting at all and in this case the Context doesn't matters.

I don't care what Context you put this scene in

If Stannis gives the order to have daughter burned in the books

Im going to see him as being just as horrible as Show Stannis

you can try to put it in any context you want but by the end of the Day

He is still a horrible person who sacrificed his own child for power

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“Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother’s peach.”

Yeah, seems like Stannis will think on renly's peach but not the daughter he will burn on the books by D&D's words

And then what, "if i die ser, put my corpse on the IT or die in the attempt"

Stannis will be my 2 favourite character either way, because manure writting will not erase the majestic one until now in the books (if he burns her for no valid in-text reason)... show Stannis is bias fan fiction to me, especially as of now... he looks more crazy eyes than the White Walkers on hardhome, and makes drogon look like a disney docile flying reptile who burns children aswell, just not his own...

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Yes, because if the show had had Ned Stark randomly jump off a cliff and kill himself because he felt down that day, and Catelyn killed Robb and then herself because she was crazy, that would totally be the same things as in the books, because "They also die in the books, innit!"

There are people arguing that Book Stannis would never burn Shireen, that D&D misinterpreted GRRM's quote or even intentionally lied to lay the blame on him. My point is THAT WE DO NOT KNOW THAT. Get over yourself, Annara.

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A lie. Take it out. What credibility can you have to talk about Stannis and his motivations if you have to start with a lie?

You also mix things from the show (which really hurt Stannis portrayal) with what is in the books in some attempt to build a strawman you can burn. Just to refresh your memory about the books, he never goes to beg for money (Tycho Nestoris comes to him) and he did a double attack on King's Landing that would have succeeded if it wasn't because of Tyrion's wit and clansmen. And to refresh your memory on the show, in the first scene he is present, he witnesses how Melisandre is burning the symbols of the Seven, not people.

My apologies, he doesn't start burning people until when? Because surely that makes a huge difference in the fact that he burned people for a fantasy given to him by a whore who seduced him.

As to your other comments, since we are in the show forum, I'm talking about the show. Which actually has not differed much on Stannis at all - except that he was actually a bit more likable at one point simply because of the excellent actor portraying him.

I know it's hard to tell we are in the show forum since people who supposedly hate the show and think the writers and show runners are terrible at their jobs, yet they still watch it just to trash it.

And everyone who doesn't bow down and agree with them gets insulted.

I'm sorry you guys apparently missed the two years of foreshadowing to this event on the show ("She has an important part to play..." - Melisandre may have well then twirled her mustache it's been so clear) and the books have been just as clear that this was going to happen.

But that's OK - it was a great episode, just confirmed what most people who pay attention already knew about Stannis - have at it, guys - it must be so fulfilling to sit around and talk about something you hate all day.

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Agree.....ugh it's so frustrating how they portray him and Dorne!

It is bad writing in the show. Context matters.

I'm sure Shireen will be burned in the books and GRRM might have told D&D that. But it cannot possibly happen under the same circumstances as in the show. First of all, Shireen is not even with Stannis so for Stannis to order the execution of Shireen, he either needs to go back to the Wall (which seems unlikely) or she needs to come to him. Either way this will take quite a lot of time. I suspect that Melisandre will be the one to burn Shireen in the books without Stannis' consent, which is a huge difference compared to the scene we got in the last episode.

The only way I can see Stannis burn Shireen willingly in the books is if he's in a truly desperate situation. Like, the White Walkers have surrounded them and are about to slaughter them all. Remember, this is the same Stannis that held Storm's End for a year and would rather eat rats than surrender. This Stannis would never sacrifice his daughter and only heir just because some of their tents/horses were set on fire and the weather is bad. The circumstances in the show are nowhere near as bad as in the books and there Stannis explicitly states that there will be no sacrifices and that his men better start praying.

In the show it's terrible writing because:

- The desperation of Stannis' situation is extremely underwhelming and should've received way more screentime/attention. The whole attack from Ramsay's 20 ninjas is laughably bad.

- Selyse doing a full 180 makes no sense. She was set up as a crazy woman so far and it would make far more sense for Stannis to drop down to his knees at that last moment.

- All the happy scenes with Shireen could be seen as foreshadowing but Stannis' current decision is a full 180 switch from his previous scene with Shireen. Show!Stannis is even more protective and caring of Shireen than the book version.

- Balon isn't even dead so there's less confirmation that Melisandre's powers work than in the books.

- It seems that getting good weather is the only purpose of their sacrifice of Shireen. It is underwhelming and unlike Stannis, to say the least.

The whole scene just screams "SHOCK VALUE" to me and I don't understand how anyone could consider it good writing.

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