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(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.


Snark88

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Stannis will not even burn Asha at this point in the books, and she is a woman he has no affection for at all. He only, very reluctantly, burns the cannibals (which, yes, is still ambiguous in terms of right and wrong, but on a totally different level to burning your innocent daughter whom you have professed to love several times). I imagine that if Stannis is to order her burned, it will require drastically different circumstances (just thinking of the timelines, it would need to be after the Battle of Ice if he was to order it).

Which is again why I personally think that it will be Mel, and possibly Selyse, who have Shireen burned in the books, without Stannis' knowledge/consent. After all, so far as they are aware, Stannis is dead at this point. I don't rule out the possibility of Stannis doing it, but I think the latter option is more likely.

My issue with it in the show is that it seems illogical and poorly written. And if this is how it was to go down in the books, yes, I would say the same.

the situation didn't seem dire enough to warrant her being burned. They still had the horses t hey could have eaten and maybe cut down on the rations. It would have made it look worse had they waited a few more episodes, have something like " we sent davos out weeks ago, he should have been back by now" and people resorting to cannibelism like they do in the books." then they burn her if they have to have the scene included.

I do think stannis does burn her, but it would have to be in a extremely bad situation.

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Yes, because there is no such thing in the show as ravens, or orders/instructions left behind, or sending someone with a message on horseback...

Seriously? You think he would be so nonchalant about it as to send a message by raven saying: "M'kay, we're in a bit of a doozy here in Winterfell, its snowing a bit. Can you do me a favour, and like, burn my daughter and heir whom I have told my followers to support in the event of my death so we can have some warm weather? Yeah? okay then, thanks, bye!

P.S. Give my regards to Lord Snow."

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the situation didn't seem dire enough to warrant her being burned. They still had the horses t hey could have eaten and maybe cut down on the rations. It would have made it look worse had they waited a few more episodes, have something like " we sent davos out weeks ago, he should have been back by now" and people resorting to cannibelism like they do in the books." then they burn her if they have to have the scene included.

I do think stannis does burn her, but it would have to be in a extremely bad situation.

Yes, I quite agree with you. Except about Stannis being the one to order her to burn. Aside from the difficulty faced in getting Shireen to Stannis at this point, there is also the fact that Shireen is his only child, and his heir, and several times he has told his men to support her if he dies. But again, I dont completely rule out that as a possibility

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Stannis is still a piece of shit, who many of us saw for what he is in Cressen's prologue chapter. We didn't need a scene of him burning his daughter to realize it, but I'm sure it's opened the eyes of many that were on the fence. Of course the "Mannis" fans will continue to be as stubborn as their favorite character is.

And even if Dany knew it wasn't the horse, she didn't fucking burn her child to death while she screamed for help. Nice deflection though. :rolleyes:

Thank goodness there is another person who isn't so blinded by how much they like a character to see them for what they are, and what they have been all along.

I actually liked Stannis a few times, at least on the show where he had a modicum of personality - heck, Cersei is my favorite character - I'm hardly judgmental based on the morality of a character on how much I like or dislike them. What I am amazed at here is folks who have read these books and watched this show that didn't see this coming ten leagues away, because it's been quite obvious for a long time that this was going to be the result of his single-minded obsession with being titled King.

I feel like people are arguing, "the sky is pea green!" while we are standing under a blue sky. I have never understood how anyone could "admire" him - I love Cersei, but I certainly don't "admire" her - and that's really what is going on here. You can like a character without thinking they are morally correct - people watched Dallas because of JR Ewing, who was a mean dirty SOB - but that folks need to project morals on him he clearly does not have just to like him is really strange to me from folks who are literate enough to read and follow the books to begin with.

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Seriously? You think he would be so nonchalant about it as to send a message by raven saying: "M'kay, we're in a bit of a doozy here in Winterfell, its snowing a bit. Can you do me a favour, and like, burn my daughter and heir whom I have told my followers to support in the event of my death so we can have some warm weather? Yeah? okay then, thanks, bye!

P.S. Give my regards to Lord Snow."

Haha, you're wasting your time. This thread is chaos.
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stannis has done nothing yet. Tv Show is not book canon.

Your Grace, if you are dead " " you will avenge my death,and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." Ser Justin ...

Sorry but Im sticking with what is written until something else is written at all. You cant fight this with book quotes. With two big book quotes as the ones I gave.

All you can throw at me is D&D fan fiction. As far as I know Daenerys is the only book character willing to sacrifice her own child. Text proben.

It may not be Stannis that does it in the books, but it would hardly be out of character if it was. He's never shown any affection towards his daughter whatsoever. And if Cressen and Renly taught us anything, it's that Melisandre has made an already cold man even worse.
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Seriously? You think he would be so nonchalant about it as to send a message by raven saying: "M'kay, we're in a bit of a doozy here in Winterfell, its snowing a bit. Can you do me a favour, and like, burn my daughter and heir whom I have told my followers to support in the event of my death so we can have some warm weather? Yeah? okay then, thanks, bye!

P.S. Give my regards to Lord Snow."

I'd hope not, but when he murdered his brother with a devil ghost from a whore's nether regions instead of standing up and fighting like a man, nothing would surprise me after that.

Hopefully he's man enough to do it himself, but folks saying it's "impossible" he could give the order are ignoring how it could be done because they desperately are trying to cling to the character who they apparently have misunderstood his entire arc of so far.

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"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

"Well, he just set fire to a whole bunch of your stuff."
"Damnit. Somebody go fetch my daughter. And some matches."

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I'd hope not, but when he murdered his brother with a devil ghost from a whore's nether regions instead of standing up and fighting like a man, nothing would surprise me after that.

Hopefully he's man enough to do it himself, but folks saying it's "impossible" he could give the order are ignoring how it could be done because they desperately are trying to cling to the character who they apparently have misunderstood his entire arc of so far.

Pot meet kettle.

You are ignoring that Stannis, whether you consider him as loving Shireen or not, has designated her as his heir, and ordered his men to support her should he die. Furthermore, he is unwilling even to sacrifice Asha to the flames, despite her being his enemy. It would take something drastic for him to burn his own daughter, and there is no chance that it would be a simple decision for him. Recall that he is even haunted by Renly's death, and he didn't liked Renly. You don't think that would weigh on his mind when ordering his daughter burned? It would be against his character to simply send a letter saying "Burn Shireen."

And, I feel I should point out again, that I do not especially like Stannis. But I am not blinded by my dislike for him.

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It happened. The producers state it's per GRRM.

Our house is quite solid right now, it's the "NOT MY MANNIS!" folks that are in those glass houses.

It happened but what is not clear is whether Stannis himself oversaw the execution. That book quote by Stannis puts a huge damper of whether Stannis ordered the death.

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Yes, because there is no such thing in the show as ravens, or orders/instructions left behind, or sending someone with a message on horseback...

so you are admitting that the same doesn't happen as it does in the show. The motivation is probably different as well and I also doubt that the Selyse balks at sacrificing the child as she's completely into the red women's fantasies.

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So, why would he burn Shireen in the books, when he has other 3 royal bloods in his possession?: Theon, Asha and fArya??? what situation would require him burning 4 people??? A lot of things need to happen in TWOW for him to get in a position that he doesn't have any other option than burn his daughter.... and the rest of the world won't stand still, the situation in the book would be readically different. If she burns, it will be because her mother does it.


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So, why would he burn Shireen in the books, when he has other 3 royal bloods in his possession?: Theon, Asha and fArya??? what situation would require him burning 4 people??? A lot of things need to happen in TWOW for him to get in a position that he doesn't have any other option than burn his daughter.... and the rest of the world won't stand still, the situation in the book would be readically different. If she burns, it will be because her mother does it.

And funnily enough, he probably won't even burn Theon.

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You are reaching so far here because you don't like what happened. "I don't like" or "I was oblivious to the obvious signs" is not bad writing.

I get the feeling that you want Stannis to be someone he's not. I get where you're coming from and making Stannis a "descend into madness" character could potentially be interesting to watch. But this is, in my opinion, not at all what is happening in the books and what GRRM intends with the character.

Stannis, in the books, lets all the men and women and children in Storm's End eat before he would even touch an onion. His decision whether he should burn Edric Storm, a boy who has no real value to him, tormented him for a really long time and ultimately he agrees with Davos (after Edric is gone) that it would've been a bad decision to burn him. Stannis also threatens Melisandre with death if her magic doesn't work and suggests to use leeches on Edric Storm instead of burning him, which saves his life. This Stannis cares about his subordinates. Stannis in the books does not even want to burn Asha Greyjoy (yet), even though she's the heir of one of his main enemies and has no real value to him (personally). Finally, he clearly tells his men that should he die, they should continue fighting for his heir Shireen and it is his ultimately goal (from the released TWoW chapter) to put her on the Iron Throne.

How am I "reaching so far"? Book!Stannis would NEVER harm Shireen unless something huge was at stake and she would be dead anyway. Show!Stannis was shown to be even more caring and loving of her.

I never said that it is bad writing because I don't like the decision or because I didn't see it coming. That has nothing to do with it. It is bad writing because it goes against Stannis entire character arc and it makes no sense at all. If you let a character go through such a change, then you need a good reason for it. That is the essence of good writing. You base decisions and actions on established logic, consistency and facts. Otherwise you could just enter random plot twists all the time for "shock value" (which is precisely what D&D has been doing with the tv series). The fact that Shireen's death has been foreshadowed does not take away the terrible handling of it. Giving hints that something is about to happen is one thing. Properly executing said event is another matter entirely.

Yes, we should've seen Shireen's death coming. But not in this way, not how the show presented it. As for your other points:

I think it was pretty clear when he was warned several times how treacherous it would be, and you know, men starving and dying off...it may not have been dragged out like the books but it's quite clear what was going on.

Stannis' situation in the show is a cakewalk compared to his situation in the books and Storm's End. They even show him telling Davos to butcher the horses for meat, so it's not like they have no food when he decides to burn Shireen. All the show has really shown us is that the weather was bad. That's it.

Davos is still perfectly capable of going back to the Wall and Stannis should have plenty of other options, such as forgetting about Winterfell for now and going to one of the Northern lords (like the mountain clans).

It doesn't make sense that her daughter screaming for her as she BURNS ALIVE wouldn't snap her out of her religious fantasies? Come now...that's not even a sensible complaint.

You misunderstand me. I said that it doesn't make any sense that Selyse would snap out of it before Stannis does. Given both their character arcs in the show, it should've been Stannis who fell to his knees, not Selyse.

It's called character development. He saved her when she was a baby, but his obsession with becoming King has overtaken him so that he does the worst thing imaginable. That's smart writing, I'm sorry. It's called a natural progression when you clearly are using Stannis as an example of how far someone can go insane while having a single minded obsession.

It would be character development if the show or book would've shown us Stannis slowly growing insane and pondering the decision to burn Shireen. But that does not happen.

A full 180 degree switch is not character development, that's lazy writing. Again, I think you see Stannis as someone he's not.

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