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(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.


Snark88

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It happened but what is not clear is whether Stannis himself oversaw the execution. That book quote by Stannis puts a huge damper of whether Stannis ordered the death.

Where does it say Stannis gave the order? He wasn't happy about it - he asked Shireen to forgive him.

Selyse said its what the Lord wants, it's a good thing, a great thing. When Shireen screams to her mother, Selyse changes her mind and Stannis says there is no other way, she has kings blood. When Selyse broke free, Stannis closed his eyes and looked away. Shirren burns, Stannis turns towards the screen and we go to another burning scene, with dragons.

It seems much more like Stannis was submitting control entirely to Mel. Sure, the soldiers would have needed Stannis' go ahead before they acted - but I think the implication is supposed to be that the soldiers were desperate and the only ones left have faith in R'hllor.

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There is no way anyone can prove what GRRM said to D&D, or what GRRM planned at point X, so any argument about it is pointless.

Further, even if a Shireen burning scene in TWoW (when/if published) is vastly different to the show, there is no way anyone can prove it wasn't planned to be as D&D filmed it, at one stage.

Stannis burnt his daughter because Mel convinced him it is the only option - it was cruel and has ruined some peoples interpretation of Stannis. It is the only official plotting for Stannis we have at this stage, so his fans have to accept he's gone there and decide what they think about him a a result. It's drama, it's meant to make you emotionally involved.

The burning literally cannot go down as D&D filmed it.

Stop.

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The amount of denial and deflecting is pretty funny, I'll be honest.

Re-watch the Inside The Episode. The entire time, they're talking about Stannis's tough decision and his will and whether he will choose ambition or familial love or whatever. They say he chooses ambition, and they're only talking about him. Within that context is when they say George told them about this. Mel is a complete after-thought in that entire little segment. It's pretty obvious (to anyone not in denial) that Stannis is going to be the one making that same decision in books.

He may do it at a different time, and within different context, but that doesn't absolve him of any guilt. Doesn't matter how beautifully GRRM writes it, or how justified Stannis thinks he is, it is not and never is going to be ok.

I think some people were too stuck on the idea that Shireen would be sacrificed by Mel to resurrect Jon Snow, that they can't see another alternative. That little girl dying for Jon Snow makes less sense than her dying by Stannis's command to save his quest for the throne.

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The amount of denial and deflecting is pretty funny, I'll be honest.

Re-watch the Inside The Episode. The entire time, they're talking about Stannis's tough decision and his will and whether he will choose ambition or familial love or whatever. They say he chooses ambition, and they're only talking about him. Within that context is when they say George told them about this. Mel is a complete after-thought in that entire little segment. It's pretty obvious (to anyone not in denial) that Stannis is going to be the one making that same decision in books.

He may do it at a different time, and within different context, but that doesn't absolve him of any guilt. Doesn't matter how beautifully GRRM writes it, or how justified Stannis thinks he is, it is not and never is going to be ok.

I think some people were too stuck on the idea that Shireen would be sacrificed by Mel to resurrect Jon Snow, that they can't see another alternative. That little girl dying for Jon Snow makes less sense than her dying by Stannis's command to save his quest for the throne.

She's going to get burned back at the castle to awaken the stone dragons. That's my bet.

Mel is incredibly evil and conniving. She's one character I'd like to see face a grim end besides Ramsay.

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So, why would he burn Shireen in the books, when he has other 3 royal bloods in his possession?: Theon, Asha and fArya??? what situation would require him burning 4 people??? A lot of things need to happen in TWOW for him to get in a position that he doesn't have any other option than burn his daughter.... and the rest of the world won't stand still, the situation in the book would be readically different. If she burns, it will be because her mother does it.

Agreed. I think most of us expected that Shireen would be sacrificed at some point. How it happened is another matter entirely, and while I'm not going to condemn D&D for it, because we don't know how it plays out in the books, it does seem improbable for those reasons and others. Then again, like you, I've long thought it more likely that Selyse, fanatical true believer that she is in the books, would be the one to actually go throught with it, not Stannis.

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Wow, again, this has been coming in the book and the show virtually since the character of Shireen was introduced. I don't see how this isn't a natural progression of the character who has done increasingly desperate things - he started on this path when he took the coward's way out and had his little brother murdered instead of face him like a Mannis...er, Man, on the battle field. I mean, so afraid of Renly of all people?




But let's pretend.



Shireen is going to be burned alive. That's a fact. If you doubt that, there is no point in discussion. One also has to assume that it will be by Melisandre, the only person in the vicinity known for burning people alive.




The "best case" scenario (the only one those who haven't seen this coming have left to cling to) is that it happens behind Stannis' back.



What does that say about Stannis as a leader?




That he cannot even protect a little girl, his princess, his heir.



That he was so taken by Melisandre and her magical nether regions that he could not see her betrayal coming.



That he is such an ineffective leader that he cannot even keep those who have pledged their oaths to him from murdering his kin.




Gee, sounds like King material to me.



Guys, you WANT somehow for Stannis to order it in the books - at least it could be said that he made the decision himself. Otherwise, this just further emasculates him and proves once and for all that he could never lead an entire country, and simply would not be capable of sitting on the Iron Throne even if by some miracle he was able to capture it.



If he cannot even protect his daughter, his heir, from his own people, then just how in hell is he going to protect Westeros from the White Walkers?


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Neither can you, so stop using the books to defend D&D, defend the writing on its own instead of using Martin as a shield. And on its own the writing on this show has sucked.

D&D said this was something GRRM told them about - I doubt they were lying, if they were GRRM would have the right to kick up a stink, sue them for misrepresentation, or something.

The books and show are telling the same story, just in different ways. GRRM and D&D are in a symbiotic relationship, so either of them using the other as a shield is counterproductive. It's just something you, as more a fan of one format and less of the other, are imagining, or reading into their words.

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Until it's written, if it is ever written, you can not say that for certain.

Yes I can.

We've seen Stannis face the same difficulties and worse. He did not break like did on the show. The circumstances are entirely different in the books and he's held his resolve and then some. GRRM seems to remember that he's a pretty good battle commander.

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Wow, again, this has been coming in the book and the show virtually since the character of Shireen was introduced. I don't see how this isn't a natural progression of the character who has done increasingly desperate things - he started on this path when he took the coward's way out and had his little brother murdered instead of face him like a Mannis...er, Man, on the battle field. I mean, so afraid of Renly of all people?

But let's pretend.

Shireen is going to be burned alive. That's a fact. If you doubt that, there is no point in discussion. One also has to assume that it will be by Melisandre, the only person in the vicinity known for burning people alive.

The "best case" scenario (the only one those who haven't seen this coming have left to cling to) is that it happens behind Stannis' back.

What does that say about Stannis as a leader?

That he cannot even protect a little girl, his princess, his heir.

That he was so taken by Melisandre and her magical nether regions that he could not see her betrayal coming.

That he is such an ineffective leader that he cannot even keep those who have pledged their oaths to him from murdering his kin.

Gee, sounds like King material to me.

Guys, you WANT somehow for Stannis to order it in the books - at least it could be said that he made the decision himself. Otherwise, this just further emasculates him and proves once and for all that he could never lead an entire country, and simply would not be capable of sitting on the Iron Throne even if by some miracle he was able to capture it.

If he cannot even protect his daughter, his heir, from his own people, then just how in hell is he going to protect Westeros from the White Walkers?

You're trying too hard and it's showing.

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Yes I can.

We've seen Stannis face the same difficulties and worse. He did not break like did on the show. The circumstances are entirely different in the books and he's held his resolve and then some. GRRM seems to remember that he's a pretty good battle commander.

Than your argument is one of baseless faith - it can't be proven, beyond your interpretation, until it is written and published.

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We must keep in mind that even if BookStannis now decided to burn Shireen, the decision would be much more justified than the decision that ShowStannis has taken. George has done some decent job in showing how difficult Stannis situation is. He has time to add much more justification for this, and can make it develop as an organic decision to be taken.



The problem is not the "what", but the "how". And how D&D have depicted the decision of Stannis burning Shireen can only be described as very bad writing.

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D&D said this was something GRRM told them about - I doubt they were lying, if they were GRRM would have the right to kick up a stink, sue them for misrepresentation, or something.

The books and show are telling the same story, just in different ways. GRRM and D&D are in a symbiotic relationship, so either of them using the other as a shield is counterproductive. It's just something you, as more a fan of one format and less of the other, are imagining, or reading into their words.

But since you just admitted we don't know really what is or isn't written in the books. Why not leave the books out of it, and just defend what we saw on the screen independent of the books. Or are you afraid to because without the Martin shield the emperors are actually naked.

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Of course you can.

Have you not read the books or what?

Yes, they are ok. they are not as good as some fans make them out to be. They have better logic than the show, generally but not always better drama and some character motivations become so convoluted they feel silly.

I used to be a fan of both - now I am a critic of both, as it is clear the story is starting to lose it's way on page and screen.

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Wow, again, this has been coming in the book and the show virtually since the character of Shireen was introduced. I don't see how this isn't a natural progression of the character who has done increasingly desperate things - he started on this path when he took the coward's way out and had his little brother murdered instead of face him like a Mannis...er, Man, on the battle field. I mean, so afraid of Renly of all people?

But let's pretend.

Shireen is going to be burned alive. That's a fact. If you doubt that, there is no point in discussion. One also has to assume that it will be by Melisandre, the only person in the vicinity known for burning people alive.

The "best case" scenario (the only one those who haven't seen this coming have left to cling to) is that it happens behind Stannis' back.

What does that say about Stannis as a leader?

That he cannot even protect a little girl, his princess, his heir.

That he was so taken by Melisandre and her magical nether regions that he could not see her betrayal coming.

That he is such an ineffective leader that he cannot even keep those who have pledged their oaths to him from murdering his kin.

Gee, sounds like King material to me.

Guys, you WANT somehow for Stannis to order it in the books - at least it could be said that he made the decision himself. Otherwise, this just further emasculates him and proves once and for all that he could never lead an entire country, and simply would not be capable of sitting on the Iron Throne even if by some miracle he was able to capture it.

If he cannot even protect his daughter, his heir, from his own people, then just how in hell is he going to protect Westeros from the White Walkers?

2/10. Would not read again.
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Than your argument is one of baseless faith - it can't be proven, beyond your interpretation, until it is written and published.

Yes it can. Shireen's death happening like it does in the books is a physical impossibility. The two characters aren't even in the same place and have no means to get to the same place any time soon. Stannis can't hike it back to The Wall to fetch Shireen and Shireen is not going to turn up at Winterfell before the battle is over because taking a 10 year girl into a battle/snow storm is idiotic. It physically cannot happen as it does in the show.

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