(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.

[ErasmusF]

As I was watching the scene between Stannis and Shireen, I paused and told my wife, "oh my god, he doesn't burn Shireen. He's going to burn himself." I was wrong.

Well, the upshot is that Davos is going to be pretty, pretty upset. My guess is that he turns in his Hand and takes the Black, freeing him up to be the badass he is.

[Cas Stark]

On rewatching the Inside the Episode segment, Benioff's comment "When George first told us this" comes right after his statement that "Stannis chooses his ambition" by burning Shireen.

Also, Benioff and Weiss' reaction to whatever GRRM told them about Shireen was "That's so horrible and so good in a story sense." I don't know that Shireen merely being burned by Melisandre without Stannis' knowledge or consent would elicit that type of reaction. Stannis burning his own child for his ambition, on the other hand, would do so.

Maybe. Or maybe not. They also say that the first time we see Stannis and Mel they're burning people...which is wrong, they can't even keep their own show straight. They are no longer afforded the benefit of the doubt by me, until GRRM says that Stannis burns Shireen or the book comes out and he does it, I have no reason to believe the two D's are any better at remembering conversations than they are their own show details.

[Moondancer]

It's geographically impossible for Stannis to burn Shireen. Or even send a letter to inform them they should burn Shireen. Jeez, in the books, Westeros isn't populated by wormholes that can transport people to the speed of plot.

Gorneholes. ;) (One should never waste an opportunity for a lame joke. It makes people happy.)

On subject - Is it possible that Stannis will sacrifice his daughter in the moment of far greater danger and importance? Not for Winterfell, but at the Wall? Maybe we have been spoiled with the outcome of the battle in ice/snow + The situation at the Wall (which at this point shouldn't surprise us, but given that they would be at the south side of the Wall and in dire need, it speaks volumes, regardless of the "chaos" GRRM promised). Melisandre is definitely the instigator but I don't believe she'd burn the girl without explicit permission of Stannis.

I have been spoiler free for 8 episodes and I caved in - Twitter rant by Linda didn't help, either. :D

[CerseiStark]

Condescending bollocks. Again!

Gendry escaping was THE STEP in his arc. That's what changed his demeanor and attitude to what he was doing.

Virtually the last thing he says in the WoW sample chapter is ask for Shireen to be seated on the throne if he dies.

When the snows come and the Queens men beg for him to burn people he tells them to fuck off in so many words.

And you Stannis burns Shireen? lol I'll have some of what you are having.

Of course in the final stages he was fighting it. Do you really believe that a character doesn't have internal conflict, that a character is being completely honest with every word that is spoken?

Your non-point about what he said about her following him on the throne was part of his delusion that it wouldn't come to "needing" to kill her. He never believed it would get to that point. Right up until the moment he decided they had no choice.

Of course he was angry and told them to fuck off - because he was increasingly realizing that if he truly believed the Red Whore's nonsense, then he had to do it.

If you need to do something, and you know it, but you don't particularly want to do it (or REALLY don't want to do it) - say, go to the dentist because you hate the dentist - it stresses you out - when someone says "gee, you really need go to the dentist" when you are already having an internal struggle over it, depending on how severe it was, yes, you lash out and say "I'll go to the dentist when I damn well please!"

Call me condescending all you want - you are the one repeatedly asking me to explain the very basic things about human nature and storytelling, because either you are just refusing to see this or you have no idea what an emotional struggle is whatsoever.

[Grayven]

Does anyone actually know specifically what Shireen was burned for? Did Mel promise anything detailed in return for crisping the sole trueborn Baratheon heir? Will the winter stop? Will Winterfell's walls fall at a mighty Stannis-shout? Will it reanimate the dead horses, convince the Stormcrows to return, and cure the frostbite of those poor soldiers who decided to stand outside rather than be slightly cramped together inside a tent?

It better be good, since a couple of leeches could have killed Roose and Ramsay all the way from Castle Black.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

On rewatching the Inside the Episode segment, Benioff's comment "When George first told us this" comes right after his statement that "Stannis chooses his ambition" by burning Shireen.

Also, Benioff and Weiss' reaction to whatever GRRM told them about Shireen was "That's so horrible and so good in a story sense." I don't know that Shireen merely being burned by Melisandre without Stannis' knowledge or consent would elicit that type of reaction. Stannis burning his own child for his ambition, on the other hand, would do so.

There is no way in hell Melissandre would burn Shireen without Stannis' consent and no chance in hell Stannis' men would let her. I have no idea why people are bringing that up. If Shireen burns it's with Stannis' approval and something most readers assumed would happen in TWoW.

[CerseiStark]

It's funny, because all the Mannis fans making me explain all this actually has made me appreciate the character much more. So thanks for making explain just how logical and interesting his story arc was. I actually like him more now than I ever did. That doesn't change one iota of what happened, or that he made a series of awful, terrible choices - and this last one that he just cannot come back from - but since I don't need to morally approve or make a hero of a character to like them, that's fine by me.

[lojzelote]

You know what we do know? IT DEFINITELY WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE RIDICULOUS WAY IT HAPPENED IN THE SHOW.

So, get over yourself. (Wow, great argument! So meaningful! Why don't I use it too, since you find it such a meaningful phrase to end the debate. Get over yourself! Let's all just say that to each other! It doesn't mean anything anyway.)

*has gotten over herself*

Yes, you're right. It was poorly executed. They have spent plenty of time building up their relationship and making (uncanonically) heartwarming, and they have ignored both that and Stannis' righteousness, because they wanted an even bigger shock.

That's not what I was talking about though. I was talking about people who outright stated that Stannis would never ever burn Shireen, therefore George wouldn't ever write anything like it and therefore D&D are outright liars or misguided fools if they believed that that GRRM told them Shireen will be burned at Stannis' orders. Which, again, we cannot simply know. Stannis may well end up ordering the burning in the face of continuous adversity. The seeds are certainly there. Maybe he'll have to be pushed much harder, but gets in the same place. (For that matter, yes, I know, the destination is not the journey.)

[Brynden Blackstag]

I don't see Book Stannis doing this. I really don't. Perhaps I'm living in denial, but for me, it seems far-fetched. (don't try to change my mind, I'm not here to discuss)

I can imagine Selyse and Mel burning Shireen, yes, but Stannis? The guy that said "When I die, avenge me and seat her on the Iron Throne"? No, I really can't.

Crack-pot Theory:

Maybe Shireen's the Stone Dragon (Greyscale!) and gonna be burned in the books, just to came out - different. :lol:

[David Selig]

Does anyone actually know specifically what Shireen was burned for? Did Mel promise anything detailed in return for crisping the sole trueborn Baratheon heir? Will the winter stop? Will Winterfell's walls fall at a mighty Stannis-shout? Will it reanimate the dead horses, convince the Stormcrows to return, and cure the frostbite of those poor soldiers who decided to stand outside rather than be slightly cramped together inside a tent?

It better be good, since a couple of leeches could have killed Roose and Ramsay all the way from Castle Black.

Maybe she died so Melisandre could temporarily disable Ramsay's superpowers. Let's face it, this guy can defeat Stannis' whole army just by himself and his dogs without even putting an armor on.

[Ser Eric]

Of course in the final stages he was fighting it. Do you really believe that a character doesn't have internal conflict, that a character is being completely honest with every word that is spoken?

Your non-point about what he said about her following him on the throne was part of his delusion that it wouldn't come to "needing" to kill her. He never believed it would get to that point. Right up until the moment he decided they had no choice.

Of course he was angry and told them to fuck off - because he was increasingly realizing that if he truly believed the Red Whore's nonsense, then he had to do it.

If you need to do something, and you know it, but you don't particularly want to do it (or REALLY don't want to do it) - say, go to the dentist because you hate the dentist - it stresses you out - when someone says "gee, you really need go to the dentist" when you are already having an internal struggle over it, depending on how severe it was, yes, you lash out and say "I'll go to the dentist when I damn well please!"

Call me condescending all you want - you are the one repeatedly asking me to explain the very basic things about human nature and storytelling, because either you are just refusing to see this or you have no idea what an emotional struggle is whatsoever.

This is hilarious :lol:

You're turning every valid point into "Of course it's the arc, he'll burn Shireen damin it!!!".

Bravo. This level of delusion and hatred is entertaining if nothing else....

[obiwan_shenobi]

D&D state that GRRM told them about 'this', then go on to discuss not Shireen being burned, but Stannis' decision to sacrifice Shireen. Pretty clear that Stannis gives the order - whether or not he's present is another matter entirely.

I can definitely see GRRM flipping Selyse's character like that - it's an intriguing commentary on the hypocrisy of religious extremism.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

This is hilarious :lol:

You're turning every valid point into "Of course it's the arc, he'll burn Shireen damin it!!!".

Bravo. This level of delusion and hatred is entertaining if nothing else....

Wait, are you saying it's delusional to think that Stannis will ultimately approve of Shireen's burning in the books?

[Juan_Snow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfLScJVXBHQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1m33s

Confirmed. DnD are not out to get book readers or Stannis fans. If you're gravely upset at the fate of Shireen, be mad at George.

EDIT:

Some people have mentioned that given the circumstances in the book, it probably won't be Stannis who orders the burning. This is a fair point. But we have to remember that Show Stannis is not Book Stannis. While it may be completely out of character for Stan to do this in the book, it's not a complete shock that Show Stan did this. He's not a hero in Game of Thrones, and it's possible that may be because DnD knows George's grand plan, and they don't want to waste their time trying to make Stannis the Mannis, if his fate in the book ain't pretty.

Just food for thought.

We also have no idea what circumstances this happens under in the book. It might be an event D&D moved forward quite a bit. For all we know it could happen at the end after Stannis has been reunited with her. Just because Shireen and Stannis are miles apart in ADwD doesn't mean they can't be together at some point in TWoW.

[Glad Komrad]

I don't get how people are concluding that Melissandre is going to burn Shireen behind Stannis' back in the books. Okay, so they are in the same location at the time. And? Burning Shireen would most certainly make Melissandre's life forfeit, whereas Stannis would have no choose but to put her to death. You can't just burn the King's daughter, without his knowledge, and call it good. No supposed King could allow that to go unpunished, and especially not Stannis. She could wait 'til Stannis is dead, I guess, burn Shireen, and run off with a ressurected Jon Snow. Yeah? I wouldn't bet on it playing that way. Just saying.

[CerseiStark]

Wait, are you saying it's delusional to think that Stannis will ultimately approve of Shireen's burning in the books?

He is. And he's calling me delusional. Since he has not come up with one single thing but a series of smarmy comments to rebut it I can't help but realize he is deep deep in denial.

On the last page I painstakingly went step by step over this arc. There really aren't many other ways to explain it - he believes that every character is taken at face value, that there is no internal struggle.

I'm watching the episode again right now. The moment he makes the decision is when he is walking with Davos and hearing about the fact ALL their food is gone, 100's of horses are dead, everything around them is in ruins - he looks and sees Selyse and Melisandre silently staring at him. That's the moment he decided it was what he needed to do.

And it's clear Davos knew it as well - why do you think he tried to get her out of there? Why did he kiss her twice? Bring her a gift if it's only going to be gone a day or two?

I honestly don't think anyone who is arguing about this actually paid attention to the show. They've been building up to this for years, and every criticism being lobbied at it is because I guess they somehow missed this coming because they had such blinders on about Stannis and missed the entire point of his character.

[Maya Stone]

Book Stannis is the guy who burned Alester Florent for trying to sell and marry off his daughter, who claims to be doing all this for his daughter, who insisted on his most trusted knight to carry on his mission and place his daughter on the IT even after his death, who still feels guilty about killing his brother (even though it was justifiable), and who wasn't able to easily burn his bastard nephew and was relieved when he was saved. I refuse to believe that this guy would be willing to burn his daughter. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but I don't think he would easily be willing to sacrifice his daughter, especially not for a silly reason like this one. IF he does sacrifice her, it would probably for her own good, such as due to grey scale taking over her or if she becomes contagious. But the most likely thing to happen in the books is Mel or Selyse sacrificing her without his knowledge, or maybe even Val