(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.

[midi]

It really wasn't as bad as first advertised in the spoilers. Still I hope they would've made the situation even more desperate and included at least some hesitation at the last moment from Stannis (rather than the Selyse).

Either way it broke Stannis. I think it didn't work well in terms of character development for pretty much anyone involved, but if this was the purpose, and it had to be done, then so be it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes. We're on denial. I mean, it's totally our fault.

No one is saying Stannis is a nice chap. He's an asshole mostly of the time. But he's not stupid. Why would he burn his own heir, for instance? So, if he dies in Winterfell, the Baratheons are over? The Lannisters won? Idiotic, tbh. That's why he's making sure that, in case he dies, his men should keep going and supporting Shireen's claim.

[Rise Above]

I going to put aside the books.

In the show, they had a scene between Stannis, Mel and Selyse in which Stannis said they had to eat the glue from the books during the siege after they ran out of food.

That man burned his child after being like, one day deprived of resources.

Or maybe, as the scene also made him complain the food was not good, they will say it's characterization that Stannis doesn't like to be hungry too much time because he then goes bananas. I can understand that but I still wouldn't kill my son :dunno:

The burnings were just the final straw. It's been made clear.. several times.. how hopeless their situation is. This was a final act of desperation.

You're just ignoring the obvious (to anyone rational at least) and cherry picking over bullshit at this point.

[CarCrashFiance]

In the books Stannis hold Storm's End during a war for an entire year while starving. It's literally the thing he's most known for in the entire series.

On the show he misses one meal and burns his daughter alive. What an insane turn for a character. I highly doubt that the books play out this way.

I cannot possibly see Stannis ordering his daughter burned in the books to ..... have food magically appear for them. And we've seen in TWOW chapters that Stannis has food and supplies and is mostly not under threat of immediate death. His daughter is at The Wall, likely threatened by the Night's Watch mutiny. But how does Stannis get back to The Wall? Does he beat Ramsay, then march on The Wall, only to kill his daughter? Makes no sense. Can't see it happened realistically.

And let's say Stannis burns his daughter. It's one thing if he burns her and gets dragons in return. Or somehow gets the real Lightbringer to take down The Others. But killing his daughter....to get food? This is the same Stannis that ate rats and stale bread for months on end before Davos arrived with food?

I call total bullshit on D&D saying that "GRRM confirmed Stannis burning his daughter". I'd likely never read ASOIAF again if that is the case. I'd wager that it is Mel who kills Shireen to raise Jon without Stannis knowing. Stannis arriving at The Wall? Unless it happens WAY later in the books D&D jumped this plot line years in advance.

[239JMFL34109]

i find it funny that as the scenes leaked out on the internet people saw the scenes and then refused to believe it happen. it was too "convenient" to be real

[Emperoreddy]

Ok D&D lied. O_O Jesus George told them that Shireen's fate is to be burned and stannis is going to most likely be involved. His reason for doing it most likely will be completely different then getting to the battle of Winterfell, but will involve something in getting what he wants. The man isn't a saint.

[jbob]

Mel would if she thinks Stannis is dead - Pink Letter.

And Walter White was an anti-hero, not a straight up villain as the show just made Stannis out to be.

Perhaps.

Anti-hero? GRRM himself called him a villain and that he wanted that kind of villain. The guy sold drugs that ruined people's lives. Children's lives.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Melissandre is not even able to forseen an attack on stannis camp but Stannis trusts so much in her powers up to the point of burning his daughter?

And Balon greyjoy is not even dead... what did Mel or her burnings did exactlty? Unlist book alester gave them some winds...

Show apologysts and stannis haters are to blind on this one. A guy who has not burnt asha, said no more burnings, and is facing far worst conditions asks massey to seat his daughter in the IT when he dies. Who by the way is far faaaar from where he is.

But somehow this comes from Martin? Give me a break!

[GeorgeIAF]

In the books Stannis hold Storm's End during a war for an entire year while starving. It's literally the thing he's most known for in the entire series.

On the show he misses one meal and burns his daughter alive. What an insane turn for a character. I highly doubt that the books play out this way.

I cannot possibly see Stannis ordering his daughter burned in the books to ..... have food magically appear for them. And we've seen in TWOW chapters that Stannis has food and supplies and is mostly not under threat of immediate death. His daughter is at The Wall, likely threatened by the Night's Watch mutiny. But how does Stannis get back to The Wall? Does he beat Ramsay, then march on The Wall, only to kill his daughter? Makes no sense. Can't see it happened realistically.

And let's say Stannis burns his daughter. It's one thing if he burns her and gets dragons in return. Or somehow gets the real Lightbringer to take down The Others. But killing his daughter....to get food? This is the same Stannis that ate rats and stale bread for months on end before Davos arrived with food?

I call total bullshit on D&D saying that "GRRM confirmed Stannis burning his daughter". I'd likely never read ASOIAF again if that is the case. I'd wager that it is Mel who kills Shireen to raise Jon without Stannis knowing. Stannis arriving at The Wall? Unless it happens WAY later in the books D&D jumped this plot line years in advance.

It's not about the food people ! It's about him fearing to be defeated and humiliated again like at Blackwater ! It's about the desperation of a man who is close to breaking point, he's gone mad and he will do everything to be sure he is going to win this battle. Probably he blames himself for Blackwater, because he didn't take Melisandre with him and so on.

[Emperoreddy]

Yes. We're on denial. I mean, it's totally our fault.

No one is saying Stannis is a nice chap. He's an asshole mostly of the time. But he's not stupid. Why would he burn his own heir, for instance? So, if he dies in Winterfell, the Baratheons are over? The Lannisters won? Idiotic, tbh. That's why he's making sure that, in case he dies, his men should keep going and supporting Shireen's claim.

Because if he doesn't they all die in the snow...including his daughter. The show set it up. They couldn't march forward, and they couldn't retreat. Everyone was going to die right there.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Stannis is an asshole and committed the ultimate crime but I'm still rooting for him to be honest. I don't think he'll ever sit the IT, he needs to die, but before he does he needs to do something big.

If he ends up getting offed by Brienne or Ramsay then what the fuck, biggest waste of a plotine ever.

At this point, I'm still rooting for him to spite the show. "You're not going to make me root for Ramsay 'I'm awesome at everything' fucking Snow."

Yes, maybe i've got over the top with that one, but Stannis in the books didn't listen to Davos, his maester, or anyone else besides Melisandre. Do you remember how he treats Davos when he says he doesn't like her ? He's like being possessed by Melisandre. Burning the Seven, cheating on his wife, burning the leeches, etc. He gave alot of power to Melisandre, and himslef is responsable for her actions too.

And Mel is responsible for Cressen trying to kill her?

I'm sorry, it's hard enough to take people seriously when they talk about murdering Renly (who had an army and would have done the same to him) like it was some blatantly evil thing. It's impossible when someone includes Cressen's sucide/attempted murder into the mix.

Mel would if she thinks Stannis is dead - Pink Letter.

And Walter White was an anti-hero, not a straight up villain as the show just made Stannis out to be.

I would say he's more of a villainous protagonist, but that is getting off topic.

[johnnysd]

People seem to missing out on a logical thread of what this means to the future books.

1. Like it or not, Benioff and Weiss DO know the major events of the remaining books

2. They intentionally separated Mel from John

3. GRRM has stated that Stannis burns Shireen.

If they separated Mel from John, that pretty much means it is very very unlikely that Mel has anything to do with Jon's resurrection.

If that is true, then a couple other possibilities emerge: One, Jon is truly dead. Or instead he is resurrected by someone else or more likely saved at the very brink of death. This allows for the possibility actually hinted at already in the TV show that Jon is made into a White Walker by the Night's King. Or maybe Bran. But Mel resurrecting him is almost certain not to happen now.

Stannis is stuck in the books too. if Jon is dead, or presumed dead, Mel, Selyse and Shireen might flee the Wall and meet up with Stannis. Then Stannis can order the Shireen execution. The showrunners often get to the same point in the books with a slightly more direct path.

[Stannistician]

In the books Stannis hold Storm's End during a war for an entire year while starving. It's literally the thing he's most known for in the entire series.

On the show he misses one meal and burns his daughter alive. What an insane turn for a character. I highly doubt that the books play out this way.

I cannot possibly see Stannis ordering his daughter burned in the books to ..... have food magically appear for them. And we've seen in TWOW chapters that Stannis has food and supplies and is mostly not under threat of immediate death. His daughter is at The Wall, likely threatened by the Night's Watch mutiny. But how does Stannis get back to The Wall? Does he beat Ramsay, then march on The Wall, only to kill his daughter? Makes no sense. Can't see it happened realistically.

And let's say Stannis burns his daughter. It's one thing if he burns her and gets dragons in return. Or somehow gets the real Lightbringer to take down The Others. But killing his daughter....to get food? This is the same Stannis that ate rats and stale bread for months on end before Davos arrived with food?

I call total bullshit on D&D saying that "GRRM confirmed Stannis burning his daughter". I'd likely never read ASOIAF again if that is the case. I'd wager that it is Mel who kills Shireen to raise Jon without Stannis knowing. Stannis arriving at The Wall? Unless it happens WAY later in the books D&D jumped this plot line years in advance.

There is a reason that D & D placed this burning prior to Jon's stabbing and resurrection (assuming it happens). Show fans are not privy to all of the prophecy in the books, so they would not view Jon as a hero if he was resurrected as a result of Shireen's burning - to much moral ambiguity.

[Ser Blake]

If Melisandre had been with Stannis on the march then he wouldn't have said no to burnings. By having Stannis bring her and his family on the march (which was dumb) it completely changed the circumstances and thus completely changed what happened.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The burnings were just the final straw. It's been made clear.. several times.. how hopeless their situation is. This was a final act of desperation.

You're blinding yourself to the obvious and cherry picking over bullshit at this point. It's silly.

Is cherry picking to point out the absurd decisions of the shows? Yeah, right. If you don't mind them, that's fine. That doesn't mean they aren't there. I'm not the one in denial here.

And it's not just Stannis. Doran is also sending his one and only heir to the place his sister and brother got killed. Why? No idea. If Doran dies, KL has the heir of Dorne in their hands. Look how that work for Sansa Stark. Idem for Mace Tyrell. Loras is their only heir and considering his position right now, they better start to look for a cousin to continue the family line.

Stannis in the show, not the books, has been portrayed to not only care for his daughter but to actually protect them because it's HIS DUTY. That's why he told Selyse. I didn't feed you because I loved you, but because I had to. He also said, in the same scene, Shireen was his heir. So, why is Stannis even fighting if he doesn't have one heir? Is Stannis planning to live forever? Is he going to get Selyse pregnant with a child that will be totally and absolutely be born male before he parts to war? He wins Winterfell and... the Baratheons are over? Where is the logic in his actions? Somewhere over the rainbow, definitely because they are not around here.

If you or anybody wants to say they like the show, fine. Say you love the show. But don't say the show is consistent. Because it's not. And some of us don't turn off our brains when watching tv. It has nothing to do with being a reader. It has to do with the fact the show contradicts itself.

[A Hapless Newbie]

I'm surprised so many people are so surprised and are blaming it on D&D. Shireen being burned has been amply foreshadowed and I've been expecting it in WoW for years.

- They need king's blood, no? Shireen is the only one left available to Stannis who is the child of a king. Does anyone really think Mel will just drop the whole issue in frustration because she can't find a suitable victim?

- Azor Ahai murdered his wife, the one he most deeply loved in the world, to create Lightbringer. Who would be the equivalent of Azor Ahai's wife for Stannis if not Shireen?

- Some of Stannis' quotes hint pretty heavily that its coming:

Stannis: If I can sacrifice one child to save a million from the dark...sacrifice is never easy, Davos. Or else it is no true sacrifice.

He uses this in reference to one of Robert's bastard sons, which is a pretty piddling sacrifice for Stannis himself. Shireen, his daughter and only heir? That would prove the strength of the conviction behind that quote and make it rather harsher in retrospect, like Jaime's line about preferring a 'good clean death' over becoming a cripple in the first book.

I don't know how it will play out in the books, or if Stannis himself will have anything to do with it, but Shireen being burned by Mel or Selyse or someone at least? There's been no shortage of hints that's coming.

[Stannistician]

Perhaps.

Anti-hero? GRRM himself called him a villain and that he wanted that kind of villain. The guy sold drugs that ruined people's lives. Children's lives.

Anti-hero in the sense that even though the audience knew WW was a piece of filth, the majority were still pulling for him (even if they don't admit it). The same will not be true for a man that burns his own daughter alive.

[Guest]

3. GRRM has stated that Stannis burns Shireen.

Where?

And what other book spoilers has GRRM spoiled?

[Ser Blake]

Stannis in the show, not the books, has been portrayed to not only care for his daughter but to actually protect them because it's HIS DUTY. That's why he told Selyse. I didn't feed you because I loved you, but because I had to. He also said, in the same scene, Shireen was his heir. So, why is Stannis even fighting if he doesn't have one heir? Is Stannis planning to live forever? Is he going to get Selyse pregnant with a child that will be totally and absolutely be born male before he parts to war? He wins Winterfell and... the Baratheons are over? Where is the logic in his actions? Somewhere over the rainbow, definitely because they are not around here.

Becasue he thinks he is Azor Azhai reborn and it is his destiny to save the world. He is willing to sacrifice everything thing to do that. The original Azor Azhai sacrificed his own wife.

[ramla]

Bottom line is killing Shireen ends his line. Even show stannis felt that way early on. Book stannis sent Massey (I think) to buy his army to place Shireen on the iron throne.