Are R'hllor and The Great Other actually both evil?

[TaliLevi]

I am starting to believe that R'hllor and The Great Other are both evil gods and that maybe the Old Gods are in fact the true 'good' gods. Here is a very simplistic overview as a bit of food for thought, without a completely rigorous analysis at this point.

The Great Other is portrayed as having the Others as his 'servants' on Essos. For R'hllor, it is the Red Priests. Here are some traits that the two religions share:

Reviving

• The Others are able to bring back the dead in the form of wights.
  
• The Red Priests can bring back the dead more or less alive except different.
  

Demand sacrifice

• The Others seemingly leave Crastor alone because he gives his sons as 'sacrifice' to the 'cold god' and are assumed to become Others.
  
• R'hllor apparently demands sacrifice in the form of burning people alive.
  

Kinslaying

• Wights kill without distinction.
  
• R'hllor apparently condones killing your own family and loved ones. Azor Ahai himself killed his own wife Nissa Nissa. Whilst this isn't technically kinslaying, Melisandre is constantly attempting to convince Stannis to kill those who share his blood.
  

Slavery

• The Others literally enslave the dead as their thralls.
  
• Red Priests seem to be more often than not bought from slavery, so it's a good guess R'hllor doesn't mind slavery too much.
  

Incest

• Craster's sons seemingly become Others and they are born of incest. Though I doubt The Others would care about this fact anyway.
  
• Targaryen's are the embodiment of fire, and intermarry to preserve the Targaryen line. Some believe Daenerys to be Azor Ahai, and Daenerys herself was born of incest.
  

A more basic view of the gods and what they represent makes me think that The Old Gods are the true gods.

• Fire is just as destructive as Ice, yet The Old Gods represent balance, they are the Gods of the trees, animals and life.
  
• Both The Great Other and R'hllor seem to be equally destructive and seemingly ritualistic. The Old Gods on the other hand have no real rituals apart from prayers, marriages and oaths before a Heart tree.
  
• If there was no Others, no endless winter, no doom, no dragons, how would the world be? Sure, people would probably still be killing eachother for power, but ultimately The Others and R'hllor may represent the total annihilation of the world as we know it.
  

The Old Gods consider the following offensive:

• Incest
  
• Kinslaying
  
• Slavery
  

Basically, everything that both other Gods openly accept, and everything a rational person would think is at least a bit troubling.

Although this confuses me on a few things. I believe Daenerys and Jon Snow to be good heroic characters who are going to save everyone, and that one of them has to be Azor Ahai, but I don't like the idea of them being this really unlikeable Red Gods champion. Perhaps in the end that that the dragons and the Others will all perish together and magic will leave the world. Maybe the Great Other's and R'hllors 'eternal battle' will finally end with both their destruction and everyone can get along with their lives. It probably doesn't mean good things for the books characters, but I think if the Red God took over it would plunge Essos into their version of the Dark Ages. And obviously if the Great Other took over that means a never ending winter and zombies standing around with nothing to do cause everyone's already dead.

[Black Crow]

The reason why the name of the Great Other may never be spoken is because it is... R'hllor :devil:

[A Loner... A Rebel]

I believe Daenerys and Jon Snow to be good heroic characters who are going to save everyone...

You expect a happy ending? Have we been reading the same books?

and per the "Gods":

The Great Other and Rhollor are on the same team (or are the same entity) - their followers have access to magic (glamoring, dragons, ice creatures, wights, face changing, etc.)

The Faceless men are the closest to letting this slip - they go around talking about how all people are basically worshipping the same god (death) - ooo.. and their mantra IS "All men must die" - kinda a give away

They will fight the people who follow the 7 and the Drowned god - whose followers have no access to magic

[Sly Wren]

You expect a happy ending? Have we been reading the same books?

and per the "Gods":

The Great Other and Rhollor are on the same team (or are the same entity) - their followers have access to magic (glamoring, dragons, ice creatures, wights, face changing, etc.)

The Faceless men are the closest to letting this slip - they go around talking about how all people are basically worshipping the same god (death) - ooo.. and their mantra IS "All men must die" - kinda a give away

They will fight the people who follow the 7 and the Drowned god - whose followers have no access to magic

And if the non-magic humans win, it will have to be without giving in to Other and Rhollor. Other and Rhollor focus on dominance and one central figure (AA, PtwP, etc.). Not good for the humans who follow. Other and Rhollor may not be "evil," but they do NOT care about basic humanity--look at what they do! As you said--all men must die.

Not sure if it will be a religious fight (7) so much as a human fight--the metaphor of the seven. And Dany and Jon will be part of it. But fully agree that Other and Rhollor are equally devastating to humanity.

[leek]

I'm not sure it is so simple as "good" and "evil" you have Rhllor who seems to be against everyone and is Fire, the Old Gods who only have power in the North and act through Trees, The Others who are Ice and are also looking for world (Planetos) domination, The Drowned God (Water) and the Storm God (Wind) who seem to by minor Gods fighting each other. Not to mention the Seven who appear to be a faith with no actual powerful Gods (unless you believe that the Crone's prophecies are true visions and not just excuses for "holy men" to do the expedient thing (like accepting the Targs despite their proclivities.

In other words the Song of Ice and Fire is the Gods' version of the Game of Thrones and there are no goodies, just evil and less evil. So it seems.

Anyway I've been lurking for a while and this is my first post. I'm sure someone has written a long and detailed analysis of it all but with search disabled (temporarily) I can't find one.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not sure it is so simple as "good" and "evil" you have Rhllor who seems to be against everyone and is Fire, the Old Gods who only have power in the North and act through Trees, The Others who are Ice and are also looking for world (Planetos) domination, The Drowned God (Water) and the Storm God (Wind) who seem to by minor Gods fighting each other. Not to mention the Seven who appear to be a faith with no actual powerful Gods (unless you believe that the Crone's prophecies are true visions and not just excuses for "holy men" to do the expedient thing (like accepting the Targs despite their proclivities.

In other words the Song of Ice and Fire is the Gods' version of the Game of Thrones and there are no goodies, just evil and less evil. So it seems.

Anyway I've been lurking for a while and this is my first post. I'm sure someone has written a long and detailed analysis of it all but with search disabled (temporarily) I can't find one.

Welcome!

And I agree about the gods--this clash does look like everyone is ready to go nuclear with no thought for the humanity in the middle. Makes me think the parallels with the Cold War have a lot of merit.

But if we've been shown the nuclear options--the various levels of evil--assuming that complete destruction is not where Martin is going, that may be where the human side has to come in. Stop kowtowing to the horrible "gods" and magics and work together. How exactly that will work, what Dany's and Jon's roles might be--not sure. But if, as you say, the gods are all just levels of badness, I can't see how siding with either "nuclear power" will result in anything but annihilation. Jon, Dany, and everyone else need to start looking for a human solution.

[Nutteralex]

Slightly off topic, but is it possible for red priests to actually revive someone from the dead? I know Berric's red priest (Thoros?) does it but I have a crack pot theory regarding why he can do it. Has it been actually confirmed that any, or any highly trained red priest can bring back essentially anyone from the dead?

[Khaella]

I've thought the same thing myself. Whenever I read about R'hollr I just get a bad feeling. Neither of them are up to anything good. I like the idea that The Other & R'hollr are one and the same too just opposite sides of the same coin. In this instance the coin is death. I also really like the comparison that this is just "The Game of Thrones" for the gods. It's like the books and all the layers that are within it. Why wouldn't that saying have more then one layer to it.

On a side note, I can't believe that I have never noticed that all of them represent a facet of nature. Ice, water, earth, fire & wind (reminds me of Captain Planet lol). It's there any theories about why that is? Or would just be because that is usually what old religion is based on? I know GRRM doesn't do anything without something behind it.

[leek]

Welcome!

And I agree about the gods--this clash does look like everyone is ready to go nuclear with no thought for the humanity in the middle. Makes me think the parallels with the Cold War have a lot of merit.

But if we've been shown the nuclear options--the various levels of evil--assuming that complete destruction is not where Martin is going, that may be where the human side has to come in. Stop kowtowing to the horrible "gods" and magics and work together. How exactly that will work, what Dany's and Jon's roles might be--not sure. But if, as you say, the gods are all just levels of badness, I can't see how siding with either "nuclear power" will result in anything but annihilation. Jon, Dany, and everyone else need to start looking for a human solution.

Thanks

I think the plan of removing the gods and leaving men in charge is the overarching goal of the Citadel, the less you have magic the more you advance science. It seems pretty clear from the Citadel chapters in AFFC They are actively trying to play down if not downright remove magic from their sphere of influence.

[TheSmallOther]

Slightly off topic, but is it possible for red priests to actually revive someone from the dead? I know Berric's red priest (Thoros?) does it but I have a crack pot theory regarding why he can do it. Has it been actually confirmed that any, or any highly trained red priest can bring back essentially anyone from the dead?

Nope. It's a suprise for Thoros himself that Berric is reborn.

[Born Yesterday]

Here are some traits that the two religions share:

I'll have to respectfully disagree with all of this.

Reviving: true, but not exclusive to these two. A warg has a chance at second life, and wargs are strongly connected to the old gods. There's also the Drowned God's baptism ritual, which restores the drowned worshiper back to life.

Sacrifice: no, only the Seven don't do this. The Ironborn drown people for their Drowned God, and sacrifices to the Old Gods are alluded more than once, even if it's presented as an obsolete custom. (And one that could be revived under extreme circumstances - say, if the Others come marching.)

Kinslaying: Wights don't count as worshipers who should adhere to a taboo. They're dead, they don't even have kin. And R'hllor, as far as we know, doesn't "condone kinslaying". At most, he may accept it as part of a sacrifice. You know, like Agamemnon and Abraham would sacrifice their offspring to their respective gods, even though their religions were decidedly against kinslaying.

Slavery: that's a cultural thing rather than religious. In the Iron Islands there are thralls, in some parts of Essos there are slaves, in Westeros there are (probably) serfs. When Jorah sold people into slavery, he committed a secular crime. R'hllor is nowhere shown to demand slavery, it just happens that his followers live in Essos. Thoros of Myr was not a slave.

Incest: I don't know what Craster has to do with anything, and the Targaryens were never followers of R'hllor, so that's completely irrelevant.

...But I feel the entire premise is wrong. GRRM has said that he doesn't intend to give conclusive proof that one religion is "true" and the others are "false". There are obviously supernatural powers in this world, but whether gods actually exist will remain a mystery open to interpretation.

And that means that we'll never get a cosmic "good guys/bad guys" scenario. The Others may be the bad guys (and even that's not 100% certain...), but they're not gods. And if the Great Other does exist, then he (she? it?) is not a god either.

[Sly Wren]

I think the plan of removing the gods and leaving men in charge is the overarching goal of the Citadel, the less you have magic the more you advance science. It seems pretty clear from the Citadel chapters in AFFC They are actively trying to play down if not downright remove magic from their sphere of influence.

Yeah--or at least really undermining it.

But as has been said by many before me, struggling to see how to "remove" magic. The Children say it's in the earth, water, etc. We've seen blood magic. So, how to get rid of magic when it seems you'd have to get rid of life, too?

Seems wiser to just stay away from the ice and fire craziness and focus on humans--can't get rid of the nuclear options via these gods, but can avoid them, not get sucked in by their promises of super-human power and dominance.

[Richard Writhen]

Yes. Any God that would be appeased by the sacrifice of one's own child would be evil. Which is why R'llor prolly dropped Stannis...