I'm sorry, but they really blew the Drogon scene (book spoilers)

[Yela]

Don't understand all the complaints, I think it was wonderfully done, Dany's just a burden standing there, makes sense for her to get out and live and she knows she's too important to die. If me and my fat best friend were running away from a dog I can outrun, I would rather him escape in another direction without me so I can outrun the dog on my own without having him get bitten.

Also, Dany obviously loves her young child(Drogon) more than anyone in the stadium so it makes sense for her to make Drogon fly away than make Drogon get killed to protect her "friends". Besides, Drogon has done his job and killed most of the SotH. She knows they(except Tyrion and Missandei) can handle it by themselves.

[ummester]

Where did Drogon's spines go when Dany mounted him? Can someone who loved the scene explain that to me?

Personally, I didn't mind it - apart from they did the stupid puppy dog thing with Drogon's face again. The range of emotion they are trying to give this dragon feels a bit zany - I watched Jurassic World last night and the human/raptor relationship in that is much closer to how the Dany/Drogon relationship should be portrayed, without trying to do it on Drogon's face.

[Yela]

Where did Drogon's spines go when Dany mounted him? Can someone who loved the scene explain that to me?

Personally, I didn't mind it - apart from they did the stupid puppy dog thing with Drogon's face again. The range of emotion they are trying to give this dragon feels a bit zany - I watched Jurassic World last night and the human/raptor relationship in that is much closer to how the Dany/Drogon relationship should be portrayed, without trying to do it on Drogon's face.

I think there were gaps inbetween. So she prolly sat on the most comfortable spot(which prolly still isn't comfortable) where there no spikes.

[Philpenn]

Mayhaps Drogon can raise and lower his dorsal spikes like some other animals can.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

I just hate how all the sons look like ex body builders turned killers and we have no info on them

[boojam]

Where did Drogon's spines go when Dany mounted him? Can someone who loved the scene explain that to me?

Personally, I didn't mind it - apart from they did the stupid puppy dog thing with Drogon's face again. The range of emotion they are trying to give this dragon feels a bit zany - I watched Jurassic World last night and the human/raptor relationship in that is much closer to how the Dany/Drogon relationship should be portrayed, without trying to do it on Drogon's face.

Well Dany did a double take about those too, tho we don't know how stiff those spike are.

Notice in the last riding shots she is wearing her faux Dothraki breeches?

Seems she has always worn those riding 'pants' under gowns!

[cade]

Glad I lowered my expectations and tried to judge the sequence on its own merits, not as an adaptation or against what could've been done differently, because otherwise it would've failed hard. Part of me wants to pick it apart and point out how superior GRRM's version is, how the show is missing out on much of the real Dany, but plenty of others have done that very well and I don't want to dwell on coulda/shoulda/wouldas. Seen just for what it is, I've enjoyed it a lot, especially after some rewatches. It helps that I've never had much interest in or high standards for action choreography and CGI, so to me all those flaws are dwarfed by the emotional power of moments like Jorah fighting for his life and his queen, and seeing Dany secretly worried and rooting for him (excellently played by Emilia Clarke), and then, of course, seeing her face down, connect with and ride a dragon. That sense of wonder and epic history being made is one of the main things I love about this genre and the story of Daenerys.

Showing yet again that it's impossible to please everyone, there have been some totally contradictory criticisms by different people: 1A) Dany abandoned her friends in danger; 1B) "There was no apparent danger," so "why did Daenerys fly away?"; 2A) The Sons of the Harpy were unbelievably courageous and should've fled as soon as they saw Drogon; 2B) They were too afraid and should've fought back more.

Drogon was clearly in danger and not fighting back effectively after he'd been speared. Dany was trying to save him and, being the primary target whose escape would instantly result in mission failure for the Harpy (and fierce reprisal from Dany), she was smart enough to realize that if she leaves, so will her would-be assassins. Why would they stay and die attempting to kill some bodyguards, a dwarf she keeps to amuse her and a handmaiden? Thousands of Unsullied were surely on their way. Any Harpies dumb enough to stay would've been trapped and died for nothing. Their cause is lost unless they can kill the queen. Those she "abandoned" were no longer in danger.

As for why the Harpies were targeting Drogon rather than Dany with their spears, I think a dragon attacking your forces would naturally draw focus fire. Doubt they had any idea Dany would actually go flying away on him.

[ummester]

Mayhaps Drogon can raise and lower his dorsal spikes like some other animals can.

Yea, I take that as the most reasonable explanation. It looked like the scales on his chest were fluffing out, like feathers, so I suspect and scales and spines on his back would be similar - up when he is angry, aroused, whatever and down when he is relaxed. And see, this is exactly the kind of thing the animators should be showing his mood with - like a bird, or a reptile - not with his eyes, lips and cheeks which just seems entirely out of place. The CG animation director for this show is a child, who applies no thought or logical realism to his/her artistic standards - it's why we end up with stupid looking skeletons and puppy dog dragons.

NB - I did some CG design/animation schooling and a little bit of work with it a while ago - and something they used to hone into us was research, research, research. Study the real life things you are basing your fantastic creations on closely, think about the logic of how they work and their history, so you can include all the necessary realism and detail to make them believable. I don't think the CG people working on GOTs were schooled the same way.

[ShadowKitteh]

To those bitching about the Dany on his back special effects, i honestly think its a little difficult to animate something like that and it not look a little obviously fake. Its gonna look a little cheesy no matter how you cut the mustard. The only thing that could have helped make it not look too bad was to make her hair whip in the wind more and her dress needed to not be so goddamn white. It should have been torn at the bottom, and splattered with sand, dirt, and soot.

Lots of blood on it though.

[ShadowKitteh]

Where did Drogon's spines go when Dany mounted him? Can someone who loved the scene explain that to me?

Personally, I didn't mind it - apart from they did the stupid puppy dog thing with Drogon's face again. The range of emotion they are trying to give this dragon feels a bit zany - I watched Jurassic World last night and the human/raptor relationship in that is much closer to how the Dany/Drogon relationship should be portrayed, without trying to do it on Drogon's face.

Since S1E10, when Drogon was born, until now, EVERY. SINGLE. SCENE. they've been in, even when it's just Drogon, everything from their wings to their quill/spikes, LAY DOWN next to the body. Yes, even those spinal ones. I'm assuming her weight alone could move them, or Drogon would.

I'm pretty sure the Dragon artists have all read the books and know where they're going and have spoken to GRRM. I'm thinking they knew in advance they'd be designing one who could be ridden.

[boojam]

Yea, I take that as the most reasonable explanation. It looked like the scales on his chest were fluffing out, like feathers, so I suspect and scales and spines on his back would be similar - up when he is angry, aroused, whatever and down when he is relaxed. And see, this is exactly the kind of thing the animators should be showing his mood with - like a bird, or a reptile - not with his eyes, lips and cheeks which just seems entirely out of place. The CG animation director for this show is a child, who applies no thought or logical realism to his/her artistic standards - it's why we end up with stupid looking skeletons and puppy dog dragons.

NB - I did some CG design/animation schooling and a little bit of work with it a while ago - and something they used to hone into us was research, research, research. Study the real life things you are basing your fantastic creations on closely, think about the logic of how they work and their history, so you can include all the necessary realism and detail to make them believable. I don't think the CG people working on GOTs were schooled the same way.

Don't look like 'puppy dog' dragons to me. They are some of the most primal nobody's sweetheart type CGI dragons I have seen.

The people at Pixomondo are premiere CGI artists. Any economization in VFX are due to GoT's TV budget. To my eye Pixomondo's work on Hardhome and this sequence are best I have ever seen for TV work.

[ummester]

Don't look like 'puppy dog' dragons to me. They are some of the most primal nobody's sweetheart type CGI dragons I have seen.

The people at Pixomondo are premiere CGI artists. Any economization in VFX are due to GoT's TV budget. To my eye Pixomondo's work on Hardhome and this sequence are best I have ever seen for TV work.

It's the animation - the facial behavior - not so much the design. I like the design. I like everything about Drogo apart from when it gets cute with Dany.

They have made Drogon emote with it's eyes and mouth (as it makes cute squeaky sounds) - it pulls a half smile when it looks at Dany in the pit and in episodic 502. Even if a jaw that shape had the kind of muscles that could pull off a smile, Drogon wouldn't know how to. And the eyes go softer and start blinking in this episode and 502.

Here is a still shot at the start of his cute expressive range:

http://i.imgur.com/56dOiWA.jpg

Our family has turtles, a rabbit and a new puppy - only the puppy can make a face anywhere close to this, which seems to be a higher mammal thing. Dragons are egg layers, so would logically have more in common with egg laying animals. Quasi biological specifics aside, it just looks and sounds stupid when Drogon get's cute.

The only other cinematic dragon I have seen do it, outside of animated Disney style shows, is Sean Connery's Draco in Dragonheart and that dragon's anthropomorphism was because it spoke. Oh, PJs Smaug got close to this kind of facial emotion also - but it also spoke. If Drogon spoke, it would make sense, I guess, but then we would be pushing into an entirely different type of fantasy tone than what GoTs has established. Perhaps Drogon is going to talk? Like Ceasar in Planet of the Apes :) I guess no-one would see that coming - but they have set up the kind of dragon face for it. Future spoiler, Drogon is going to yell = BURN THEM ALL!

They shouldn't even be trying to convey emotion with Drogon's face, that's my point. The emotion should be conveyed with Drogon's body, the music and Dany's face. Like I said, check out the raptors in Jurassic World - they behave like birds or lizards but we, the viewers, can still tell that they are aware of their relationship with the humans via their overall body motions.

This is nothing to do with budget and everything to do with design, planning, storyboarding and so on. They could save money by employing less facial animators and rendering less up close frames and have a more effective dragon to boot, with better planning.

You know when Dany locked her other 2 dragons up in episode 410? That was done perfectly. You could tell the dragons were scared about mommy leaving them because they behaved and squawked like scared baby birds. You could tell Dany was upset, by the look on her face and then the music just added a layer to involve us emotionally. Why can't they take that same kind of approach to convey the emotional aspects of Dany's relationship with Drogo and stop trying to do it on his face? Whose lame brain decision was it to try and make Drogo's face emote on a mammalian level anyway?

[boojam]

It's the animation - the facial behavior - not so much the design. I like the design. I like everything about Drogo apart from when it gets cute with Dany.

They have made Drogon emote with it's eyes and mouth (as it makes cute squeaky sounds) - it pulls a half smile when it looks at Dany in the pit and in episodic 502. Even if a jaw that shape had the kind of muscles that could pull off a smile, Drogon wouldn't know how to. And the eyes go softer and start blinking in this episode and 502.

Here is a still shot at the start of his cute expressive range:

http://i.imgur.com/56dOiWA.jpg

Must be in the eye of the beholder, does not look 'cute' to me. Looks more inquisitive like. I don't see anything incorrect with Drogon looking a little winsome or even making 'purring' sounds at Dany, for a few moments. Don't see any 'smile'.

All the other dragons I have seen are movie done on a movie budget, some are of course just for the kids.

The criticisms you level could be applied to Smaug in the recent Hobbit movies.

[ummester]

Must be in the eye of the beholder, does not look 'cute' to me. Looks more inquisitive like. I don't see anything incorrect with Drogon looking a little winsome or even making 'purring' sounds at Dany, for a few moments. Don't see any 'smile'.

All the other dragons I have seen are movie done on a movie budget, some are of course just for the kids.

The criticisms you level could be applied to Smaug in the recent Hobbit movies.

I did comment on Samug in a later edit - Smaug talks, which sets a totally different tone, with a totally different kind of dragon - a sentient one.

You may think it's inquisitive - that's fine, I can see that emotion there also. Whatever it is, the way they are animating Drogon's face this season is way too intelligent for the character they have previously established for him. Drogon talking before the saga is out seems a distinct possibility with a face that has his current emotional range and you have to ask yourself, would a talking Drogon feel right? For me it wouldn't feel right at all.

Say there is a scale of cinematic dragon sentience, it would be something like, from least sentient to most.

Riegn of fire dragons - Verimithax - Draco - Smaug.

Where would Drogon fit? I have always thought he was around the Verimithax level, a little smarter then the Riegn of Fire dragons but no where near as smart as Draco or Smaug. Basically, a mid level animal, no where near as smart as Killer Whale, not even as smart as a dog, or elephant. Perhaps as smart as a wild cat, on the outside, or an intelligent bird, like a Galah. His face acts like he is as smart as Draco or Smaug - that would probably make him smarter than half the characters in GoTs, including Dany :D

[boojam]

I did comment on Samug in a later edit - Smaug talks, which sets a totally different tone, with a totally different kind of dragon - a sentient one.

You may think it's inquisitive - that's fine, I can see that emotion there also. Whatever it is, the way they are animating Drogon's face this season is way too intelligent for the character they have previously established for him. Drogon talking before the saga is out seems a distinct possibility with a face that has his current emotional range and you have to ask yourself, would a talking Drogon feel right? For me it wouldn't feel right at all.

Say there is a scale of cinematic dragon sentience, it would be something like, from least sentient to most.

Riegn of fire dragons - Verimithax - Draco - Smaug.

Where would Drogon fit? I have always thought he was around the Verimithax level, a little smarter then the Riegn of Fire dragons but no where near as smart as Draco or Smaug. Basically, a mid level animal, no where near as smart as Killer Wahale, not even as smart as a dog, or elephant. Perhaps as smart as a wild cat, on the outside, or an intelligent bird, like a Galah. His face acts like he is as smart as Draco or Smaug - that would probably make him smarter than half the characters in GoTs, including Dany :D

Eye of the beholder.

[ummester]

Eye of the beholder.

Except its not - his face has been tangibly visualized one way in previous seasons, like a reptile or bird and now with an abrupt level of sentience in this season. There is nothing eye of beholder about the change, as much as you can try and argue there is about a given state. If the change is deliberate and consistent, we can assume Drogon will be the most sentient character in the series by the time it is over and it has never been hinted, anywhere in GoTs or ASoIaF, that the dragons are sentient.

And, if Drogon's face has only been made anthropomorphic to relate how Dany sees him to the viewer, than GoTs is also breaking it's established rules. Unlike the books, the show has never been delivered with POV bias - it is as is, straight up.

[Daske]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already but the way Drogon moved looked very believable. That way of walking with wings turned up is very similar to how most palaeontologists believe pterodactlys shuffled about on land.

[dielsis]

If the change is deliberate and consistent, we can assume Drogon will be the most sentient character in the series by the time it is over and it has never been hinted, anywhere in GoTs or ASoIaF, that the dragons are sentient.

I agree - I dislike how it looks. However, I took the changes to mean that Drogon is a step above the other dragons - smarter, stronger, more connected to mom, etc. I don't think it's going to lead to speaking but I do think they are trying to hint that some dragons could have a level of sentience higher than expected and perhaps that's an explanation for Balerion and such.

It still looks crappy, though. I wish there were a better way to do it.

[ShadowKitteh]

Of course the dragons are sentient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

And I love the dragons and think the CGI is brilliant. Especially for television.

Dany riding drogon is better CGI than Legolas suring down stairs, and oliphant's trunk....

[robasp2]

Of course the dragons are sentient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

And I love the dragons and think the CGI is brilliant. Especially for television.

Dany riding drogon is better CGI than Legolas suring down stairs, and oliphant's trunk....

That was almost 10 years ago!

And 10 years before that they moved around miniatures and models.

BAD comparison.

Anyway I finally agree it was ok enough for TV after I analyzed quite a lot of TV series.