I'm sorry, but they really blew the Drogon scene (book spoilers)

[Nictarion]

I thought the CGI was decent. Not as good as when Drogon snatched the goat, but that was easier. It was the fight choreography that really threw me.

Fair enough.

[Joe Pesci]

It's feature film quality if that film happens to be The Never Ending story.

Hahahaha as soon as I saw her flying away I knew this would be brought up, at least she wasn't riding off on an oversized Muppet though :thumbsup:

Things could have been done a bit differently and gotten a better result imo, mainly her taking a more assertive control of Drogon like in the book. The hesitation of the SotH is strange in that if they bullrush the Unsullied their numbers would overwhelm them, but they also waited around with GW so at least it was established already, even if it lacks in common sense.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

People are soooooooooooooo stuck on that.

But first, the reasons were clearly laid out - the desperation of the camp that book readers don't see wasn't confusing to anyone but them. There is dialogue and imagery that completely supports that. Men falling over starving. Men clinging to a bowl of gruel barely able to eat it. Davos telling Stannis before they even left how dire it would be, and reminding him all along the way.

I agree - doing it for a stupid Red god because of what the Red witch said is stupid - but that's been Stannis' decent as he's sacrificed more and more to this Red God - he's become a religious zealot. It made perfect sense, it's just that it seems people have conveniently missed that Stannis' journey hasn't been toward the iron throne, it's been his decent into religious insanity.

Back to the thing that people seem sooooooo stuck on - his conversation with Shireen. I honestly don't know how people are watching the show progress and don't understand that these characters have emotional inner-lives. As he knew his situation was growing increasingly desperate, he was internally fighting against doing what the Red witch had already told him he needed to do. He kept believing that it wouldn't come to that, that he'd never have to make that decision. And he wanted to remind himself of why. Hence that scene. When Stannis has snapped about this in the past, that's EXACTLY the reaction of someone who knows something but doesn't want to be told it because they are fighting internally against it. He was battling over this decision, trying to convince HIMSELF that he would never do it, and banking on that he never would "have" to.

He didn't intend on it coming that far, his blind hope was that the Red witch was wrong way back in Season 3 when she said he would have to sacrifice his family. He has been fighting against it this whole time - it wasn't until he was walking through the ruins of the camp, being told all food was gone, 100's of horses, how they couldn't go back and they couldn't go forward - the actor did such a good job you can see his moment of realization when he looked over at the Red witch and Selyse - this was their most desperate hour.

All of this made crystal clear sense. I think people need to go back and watch this season again with Stannis without "he's a hero!" blinders on, because while he kept believing that it would never come to that - the season is about him slowly realizing that if he is going to believe that this Red God is going to make his bid for the throne happen, he had to really believe it all the way - this was his final step succumbing. The whole thing with the Red God to begin with was the easy way out, but he realized that he can't take the easy way out of the easy way - if he truly believed, he needed to believe all the way - enough to sacrifice his daughter, as the prophecy according to the Red Witch had already foretold.

If it was for the horrors of all that those in camp were going through, why didn't Stannis wait until at least.....the horse meat ran out? Also, I'm not so sure about the supposed desperation of the camp, because the scene I watched seem to show a bunch of people just as horrified at this outcome as many viewers were. The show doesn't show us an army full of crazy zealots asking for this sacrifice, forcing Stannis hand along with Mel and Selyse, they are just glorified extras that we have no idea about. Hell.....the soldiers look like they may just turn on him for doing this. I wouldn't be surprised if such a thing happens, or if most of them turn back themselves for Castle Black. Then again, Ramsay and the Magnificent Twenty might pick them all off anyway. Well, that would be the logical conclusion, but continuity episode to episode isn't something I count on for this show anyway.

[Dolorous Gabe]

snip

All of this made crystal clear sense. I think people need to go back and watch this season again with Stannis without "he's a hero!" blinders on, because while he kept believing that it would never come to that - the season is about him slowly realizing that if he is going to believe that this Red God is going to make his bid for the throne happen, he had to really believe it all the way - this was his final step succumbing. The whole thing with the Red God to begin with was the easy way out, but he realized that he can't take the easy way out of the easy way - if he truly believed, he needed to believe all the way - enough to sacrifice his daughter, as the prophecy according to the Red Witch had already foretold.

Thank you for the long reply. I appreciate that, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. There were other options to turn to before such a horrific decision.

I only really want to reply to the bolded. I am not, nor have I ever been, a Stannis fan. I find him an interesting character but so are the vast majority in GRRM's fascinating world.

Edited to add:

All it boils down to is - "creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen"

[JSPR_G]

I liked the scene. Not as much as in the books, but still. Emilia Clarke was really great, for the first time this season. Especially during Jorah's fight. She's actually a good actress when she isn't the cold queen of Meereen.

The only thing that bothered me were the extras running around. They just didn't stop running in circles. Everybody in the pit freezes when they hear and see Drogon, but the extras just keep running.

Drogon was beautifully made. The flying scene could've been more realistic, though. But it was better than I expected. This was the scene I feared the most because this has to be quite difficult to make. It's quite obvious that season 6 & 7 will have much more scenes with dragons and wights (and ice spiders, yeah!). I hope they'll have the budget and skills for it.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

So far, so good, and my anticipation was at a high level when we heard Drogon's call from over the wall. But then, instead of the action winding up to a fever pitch, it . . . just . . . stopped. Incredibly, all of the fighters involved in the staredown/standoff decided to stare at Drogon instead of continuing the fight. Folks, I'm sure a dragon flying overhead is mighty interesting - but nothing is as interesting as a man with a sword who wants to kill you who and is standing 12" away. Nevertheless, an entire line of SOTH actually turned their backs on Jorah and Daario--who did nothing about it! Hogwash!!!

Have to disagree. An agitated dragon swooping in and breathing down a fiery holocaust would stop every single person in their tracks, wild-eyed and jaws agape.

[PyromancersPiss]

As usual on these forums, this is getting blown way out of proportion. Was the scene perfect? No, and most scenes rarely are. But to say that "they blew the scene" and it was "destroyed"? THAT is the real "utter hogwash".

For starters, yes, we are all annoyed that these untrained Harpy have been able to kill so many Unsullied "so easily". Let's not forget that the Unsullied are great in battle and open field combat with their shields and long spears, but not necessarily so effective in closer quarters combat, as they were in the stands against shorter range weapons and daggers (this logic also applies to the scene in an earlier episode with Unsullied, Grey Worm, and Barriston). But notice that once the fight moved into the center of the pit, that the Unsullied were able to better keep the Harpy at bay and kill more of them. Why wouldn't the Harpy just charge all at once? Possibly because as you've all said, they have no training or military plan and they were waiting for some kind of opening (and no, Drogon landing was not an opening and we'll get to that) because it's very possible that these members of the Harpy are not on a suicide mission and do want to try to live more than make a mad dash suicide run and hope they may succeed.

if you rewatch the scene carefully, you will see that once Drogon appeared, many of the Harpy ran off, many were killed, many were burned, some were eaten. To imply that seeing a gigantic, fire-breathing, human-eating DRAGON (which by the way, hasn't actually been SEEN by any of the Harpy unless they saw it randomly flying around, or seen by ANYONE in years upon years)--wouldn't be enough reason to completely stop them all in their tracks and focus on the dragon instead of their "target" is completely and utterly ludicrous. The Queen was their target, sure, but as soon as that dragon landed on the ground, you'd better believe that the ones foolish enough to stick around had a new target.

Let's focus again on the specifics since we apparently have to break it down to this level: Harpy burned, eaten, and many running away. In the midst of danger, how many of them that stayed would feel confident enough to take their eyes off of the giant dragon to try and "easily kill the Queen" when the moment they look away could very well be the instant the dragon focuses its attention their way and kills them? That's not plausible to you? How about the fact that there were still plenty of Unsullied circled around Daenerys keeping the few remaining Harpy IN THAT CLOSE PROXIMITY (there were plenty more that WERE NOT that close to her but were back towards the pit walls due to Drogon) from advancing on her? How about the fact that the ones that close had daggers and not spears to throw and the ones who were further back could only throw a few spears into Drogon because yeah, you should probably try and take out the giant dragon in your path before trying to get closer to "your real target". AND if any of them tried to throw a spear at Dany during that time, the Unsullied would block it (let's not forget that Unsullied remain to their duty and are not as easily distracted too, even potentially by a dragon).

Could Dany have easily been hit by a spear while walking to Drogon? Sure!--IF one of the remaining Harpy had managed to notice her doing so and still had a spear, had REALLY GOOD AIM as an "untrained" regular person and had one that hadn't already been thrown into the giant menacing dragon that they very clearly could not take their eyes off of! Why didn't they hit her while she was standing there having her "moment" with Drogon before someone chucks another spear into him? Well, how do you know they weren't trying to hit her and just had bad aim? How do you know they weren't mystified by what was happening? How do you know that they weren't waiting to see if the dragon that just chowed down on some Harpy might chow down on Dany too? YOU JUST DON'T! Could she have been hit while she climbed on but before they had taken off? Again, sure!--BUT again, you'd need some damn good aim, still need a spear, and be one of the few willing to try and attack the dragon and all of that's just as likely as Drogon deciding to chomp her head off himself instead.

Clearly due to the editing, we didn't see ALL of the Harpy run off or get killed, nor did we get the full closure, but you know what, too bad. It's honestly a nitpicking detail. Have to give all the naysayers and D&D haters SOMETHING to complain about, right? I also would have loved to have seen a little less slow down of action, more urgency for Dany to get on Drogon, and more closure on what happened to all of the Harpy and why they weren't able to "easily" still kill Dany despite a giant dragon distracting them, but it just wasn't that important to do so and they did a DAMN good job with this scene and it was most certainly not any kind of failure.

In addition and to whoever said it, please stop saying that Jorah touching Dany has transferred grey scale to her and that it's a "plot hole". It's not a plot hole. We don't know enough about greyscale to answer that but there's some pretty likely evidence against it, such as the fact that you probably have to come in contact with the actual greyscale (ex. that one part of Jorah's right forearm) in order to contract it, whereas his hand that he touched Dany with is fine. Stonemen are completely covered in greyscale, hence touching any part of them causes the infection. In addition, as in the books with the Pale Mare plague not affecting Dany, it is entirely possible that she has some kind of resistance, but I like my first reason better.

And are there really people saying Hardhome didn't have anything to do with advancing the plot and that it was a waste? Wow, what a load of crap. I don't have the energy right now to argue against that one.

:bowdown: :cheers:

Bold #1

As a matter of fact the 1st SOTH that tries to make a charge at Daenerys is the 1st ones Drogon attacks. We all saw it, the guy that gets tossed around like a freakin' rag doll?!?

#2

Drogon roaring in her face was an homage to the book. For those of us that read the book Daenerys gets burned by him, in his fury he is attacking anyone and anything because the attempts to kill him are much more severe. Hizdahr has obviously planned for this possibility and quickly gives orders to kill him. It was definitely driven home by GRRM in ADWD that Daenerys could've easily been killed by Drogon's kiss of fire.

#3

I think D&D did a masterful job at condensing this overwhelmingly massive scene from the book. Yes, it would've been great to have it exactly like the books, especially the jailbreak of Viserion & Rhaegal and what they're up to... But I've watched this about 7 or 8 times and it gives me tears of joy every time. I doubt all these haters allow themselves to enjoy much in life. Why does everyone think they could do it better? So egotistical.

#4

It's becomes more contagious as it progresses. I would estimate that after 60-70% of the "incubation period" an infected person's entire external and internal make-up would be extremely contagious. So contact with any part of the body or bodily fluid (including sweat) would almost guarantee infection.

However, in the early stages only direct contact with the GS patch would cause infection.

And to all the haters that have/will said/say YOU DON'T KNOW THIS! Try reading "between the lines" lol :cool4:

[PyromancersPiss]

Some of the posts in this thread absolutely convince me that nothing could satisfy some folks.

I have watched that epic sequence twice, and I have no idea in the world how anyone who read that scene in the books and saw that scene replicated on a TV show...a TV show...can say it was "ruined".

That was feature-film quality work. I am extremely sensitive to poor CGI, and there were maybe two shots that were iffy at most - no more than I find in most feature film sequences.

It was so incredibly faithful to the books with very minor exceptions, and IMO, both improved how it played (Tyrion being with Dany's party instead of being a bystander, and Dany not needing to physically abuse Drogon to ride him - that didn't make any sense to me in the books to begin with and without all the back stories about Dragon's from the books would have confused people more than anything).

Half the harpies ran, half of them were stunned - anyone every hear of "Deer in headlights?"

Drogon was raised around the Unsullied, Mis. had fed them from her hands, Drogon's not an idiot he knew who he was going after (plus they helped him out by wearing those golden masks).

As the only one in my social group who has read the books, my phone was lighting up the second those credits were rolling - with "OMG!! DRAGONS!!!" and "NOW THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR!" and all the variations in between. And the ones that got deep enough to mention Shireen said "Thank goodness they didn't end there, because that would have been terrible to end with." When I've talked with a few since, BTW, not a single one was surprised by what happened to Shireen - it was traumatic, they hated watching it (some had to leave the room) but no one didn't see this coming for the past several seasons. I mean, they outright told you back in Season 3 if you paid attention.

The Unsullied not only understood the whole thing, it seems that they have somehow understood it even more than book readers did.

Best post I've seen since joining this "D&D hatefest" of a forum!

:cheers: :bowdown: :cheers:

[PatrickStormborn]

GRRM already had a big battle with the Others that they didn't have the budget to shoot in the show. So, maybe the show was just making up for the lack of the Fist of the First Men battle. I know the battle happens in the show, but we just see the aftermath.

Nope - we never see it first-hand in the books either.

[PyromancersPiss]

Thank you for the long reply. I appreciate that, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. If Davos can get back to CB, so could the rest of them with those stores of horsemeat they have (that wouldn't be great storytelling, but neither is a band of 20 men somehow lighting huge fires across a huge camp in heaps of snowfall and getting away without being seen). There were other options to turn to before such a horrific decision.

I only really want to reply to the bolded. I am not, nor have I ever been, a Stannis fan. I find him an interesting character but so are the vast majority in GRRM's fascinating world.

Edited to add:

All it boils down to is - "creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen"

Ever watched survivorman?

As a matter of fact, a buddy and I went camping in a pretty heavy snow/sleet/rain storm on memorial weekend in Mammoth Lakes, CA. We had a huge bonfire burning all night.

Setting a fire with wet wood/conditions is difficult for the inexperienced, but just like riding a bike otherwise.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Ever watched survivorman?

As a matter of fact, a buddy and I went camping in a pretty heavy snow/sleet/rain storm on memorial weekend in Mammoth Lakes, CA. We had a huge bonfire burning all night.

Setting a fire with wet wood/conditions is difficult for the inexperienced, but just like riding a bike otherwise.

That's not the same thing as setting a bunch of them to go off simultaneously in the middle of a fortified camp with an experienced battle commander without being detected. I get it that you're a show fan, and that's fine, more power to you, but some things don't bear defending.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

My main problem with the Drogon scene is that people are forgetting he isn't a fully matured dragon. He's what, maybe 6 or 7 years old? Full sized even Dany would have been hard pressed to control him whip or not.

Also, where were the rest of Dany's guard? I understand the Harpy's testing the inner circle, seeing which points might have a weakness, but it slowed down the entire scene. Too many bad guys and not enough good guys.

Of course the action stopped when Drogon appeared. He's a DRAGON! They're kinda rare and precious and unpredictable. Now, e need to release Drogon's brothers and get this Ice Party started.

If D&D are going to start moving through the remaining material at lightning speed, I realize some things are going to have to be sacrificed for time's sake, but don't shortcut on the dragons. It's what separates GoT from any other show on television right now and they are an integral part of the story.

[lovelikeangels]

i personally thought it was very odd during that one part where the fighting had broken out and everyone was surrounding Dany on the podium BUT HER ENTIRE BACK WAS STILL OPEN!?!?!

[Khal Boner]

Perhaps if they didn't blow the budget on Hardhome (which is an almost entirely fabricated and plot destroying D&D invention) they could have rendered the Daenerys/Drogon scene better.

The memo from the creators to the FX supervisor must have been badly written.

[boojam]

As it turns out, the scene was decent but no better, and I'm sorry, a "decent" result from such a marvelously cinematic book scene can't be considered as anything other than disaster. What went wrong? Not everything, but quite a few things.

I was not expecting a Peter Jackson composition , not enough time and money for that. I think David Nutter could be blamed here. Even tho I know he worked on HBO's The Pacific I can't say he is an action director, tho he does good work at smaller scale, he did the Red Wedding. There were real pacing problems with the action, of course Hollywood has a history of that, in the modern era several directors have emerged who can do properly staged big action. One thing of note was budget constraint. Not enough money for long shots and pull back, close ups substituted for even medium shots. Actually the long shots that were done were quite good. Nutter seemed to have a problem with choreography , simple placement of cast seemed off and on.

However I found the whole sequence better than decent, especially for the budget. It's supposedly 100 million dollars a season now, lets suppose they spent more than 10 million on episode 9, that's not enough, but that's what it had to be. For the budget they had I was satisfied with the CGI.

I would have like to have seen episodes 8's director Miguel Sapochnik to have done this one.

Still I was pleased enough with what I saw.

[boojam]

"Daenerys fly away? In the book, it was crystal clear that she had to get Drogon out of there, or he would be killed. In the show, there was no apparent danger, and in fact, the folks who were left behind were seen just staring her and Drogon down until they vanished out of sight, with apparently no SOTH-fighting business to be attended to at all.'

Seems just the opposite in the book. On the page Drogon seems to be triggered by having a rider into flying.

On the show Dany gives a look of concern than a look of determination to get Drogon out of there. She sen commands him with a Valyrian word.

I think the SoH lost interest in the fight when their target vanished.

[jbob]

The Harpies were about to attack Dany and the rest when the dragon suddenly roared. The Harpies become frightened and were in shock. They weren't counting on that and a dragon is a pretty scary thing. Everyone acts like Dragons are hard to kill. That part never bothered me. Only part I didn't like is that it really did look like Dany abandoned them. But it's obvious on a rewatch that most of the Harpies died or ran off.

[jugdesh258]

Also, where were the rest of Dany's guard? I understand the Harpy's testing the inner circle, seeing which points might have a weakness, but it slowed down the entire scene. Too many bad guys and not enough good guys.

We didn't invent the Secret Service until after Lincoln was assassinated

[hallam]

You guys don't deserve this show and I do not mean that nicely.

The scene was awesome. Of course the fight stops cold when it turns out Danny has a tactical nuclear weapon flying to her rescue. The sons of the harpy are irregulars, they are not trained, their officers (if they have any) have not been prepared for the arrival of a dragon.

The only small quibble I have is that the same number of fighters engage in each of the four sequences making it a little obvious that it is the same set repeated. I would have varied the numbers and done some costume changes to make them more distinct.

But no, fielding a dragon is going to win the first engagement from shock value alone.

Oh and protecting the queen and then getting her away to safety as soon as possible is what it is all about. Once she is gone the harpy won't have a clue what to do next and they know they have a limited time before reinforcements of unsullied arrive.

[PyromancersPiss]

That's not the same thing as setting a bunch of them to go off simultaneously in the middle of a fortified camp with an experienced battle commander without being detected. I get it that you're a show fan, and that's fine, more power to you, but some things don't bear defending.

Are you referring to a coordinated strategic assualt resembling guerilla warfare tactics? Because, it sounds like that's what you mean... LOL

They're all southerners out of their element, and you're surprised a covert operation was successfully achieved by the northerners on they're home turf?

And, yes it's my favorite show ever created, and IMO probably the best. By a landslide.

But I've read all 5 books, plus the WOIAF and all D&E, etc.

I think your are the one defending my friend. Instead of desperately seeking non-existent plotholes to make yourself feel smarter than everyone else... Why don't you crack a good beer and try to enjoy it? Or maybe a punching bag?

I don't know about you, but my life is filled with enough drama already. Why split hairs (troll) on something you enjoy enough (I'm assuming) to spend time on the internet talking about it.

As GRRM said, the books and show may take different roads but will end at the same destination. ...Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons!