GRRM himself weights on on "Maegor the Third", Night's King

[DMC]

In regards to 'Maegor III,' how is this any different from when Tywin mentioned 'King Orys' that was betrayed by his brother or something after the Purple Wedding last season? It seems pretty clear that they aren't too interested in establishing any type of 'show continuity' in terms of past kings, which is hardly a main to be concerned about when it comes to show continuity....

In regards to GRRM being perturbed with D and D, I think this quote from his recent post is the closest thing we'll get to public frustration:

Yes, I know that THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER named me "the third most powerful writer in Hollywood" last December. You would be surprised at how little that means. I cannot control what anyone else says or does, or make them stop saying or doing it, be it on the fannish or professional fronts. What I can control is what happens in my books, so I am going to return to that chapter I've been writing on THE WINDS OF WINTER now, thank you very much.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I think a lot of people here have memorised the Targaryen kings.
Wish I hadn't, but whatever. It's with me now. Maegor 3 sounds like a good king.

Third most powerful writer in Hollywood?

When was he awarded that, 2010?

[Hayyoth]

Ok, I'm totally confused?

There is a Nights King in the books - he is not a show invention.

What the hell can the Nights King have to do with a Targ King? There are 1000s of years between the Nights King heading into the north and the Valyrian shepherds even finding the 14 flames, let alone the Targ dynasty being established?

Or are these things totally unrelated and GRRM is just nitpicking? I really don't get it? Does Maegor have any bearing on the current story at all? If not, he is superfluous back story.

All that matters in GRRMs statement seems to be that book Nights King (Night's King, Nightsking, Knights King - again, who really gives a fuck) is well and truly dead, suggesting he is out of the picture. This is a huge difference from the show and worries me that something is not right about the communication between GRRM & D&D. I don't see why the show would factor in an important mythological character, that requires a massive FX budget, if he wasn't important to the ending that GRRM sold them way back when?

I'm guessing the Others in the books DO have a leader of some kind and he will be a huge factor. D&D have decided to make their leader of the White Walkers the Nights King, because it's kewl and will give the fanboys a semi, even though he'll follow a similar(ish) plot as the book Other's leader and being the Nights King will make zero difference to how he behaves or how the plot concludes. Have to say though I'm disapointed, I had assumed the revelation of the NK was a genuine spoiler and pointed to the reveal of a great backstory, but nope.

[Facebookless Man]

There is absolutely no reason to believe ASOIAF has any kind of Evil Dark Lord Of Doom character, and seeing how such a character is a trite cliché, it's absolutely unsurprising that D&D thought it would be awesome to make one up.

[roxWolfox]

I can't think of one Dark Fantasy that doesn't have an Evil Dark Lord/Lady/Creature of Doom.

[White Raven]

Yes, I know that THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER named me "the third most powerful writer in Hollywood" last December. You would be surprised at how little that means. I cannot control what anyone else says or does, or make them stop saying or doing it, be it on the fannish or professional fronts. What I can control is what happens in my books, so I am going to return to that chapter I've been writing on THE WINDS OF WINTER now, thank you very much.

Maybe George will get so frustrated with the show and show reactions that he speeds up his writing a little... *wishful thinking*

[ummester]

I'm guessing the Others in the books DO have a leader of some kind and he will be a huge factor. D&D have decided to make their leader of the White Walkers the Nights King, because it's kewl and will give the fanboys a semi, even though he'll follow a similar(ish) plot as the book Other's leader and being the Nights King will make zero difference to how he behaves or how the plot concludes. Have to say though I'm disapointed, I had assumed the revelation of the NK was a genuine spoiler and pointed to the reveal of a great backstory, but nope.

But how do we know whether GRRM originally planned the NK to be of relevance and sold that ending to HBO, changing his mind after the fact, or whether HBO made it up?

I can't tell anymore - I think its all BS, from GRRM and the show runners - they are all totally full of shit and had no hard plan for how to end this thing, way I'm reading into it now. Total lack of the rule of P's.

[ummester]

GRRM makes no attempt to conflate the two issues. He is responding to a question from The Dragon Demands (who does the GoT wiki) on his blog.

I could only read what was posted here before - I'll read the blog now.

[GilletteMace]

Mace is the man! Nothing he says is without reason, actually he is the smartest guy in westeros.

[Natmus]

I'm more interested in George's comment about book-Mace not being the type to make a mistake like that. Hint that book-Mace is more than he seems perhaps?

Book-Mace is still alive and Hand of the King at the end of aDwD, which is an accomplishment in itself. Consider how all the previous Hands have ended: Tywin, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, and back to Arys' time. All died of unnnatural causes. Only Tyrion survived, but he was only Acting Hand.

While it is easy to speculate that book-Mace soon will be killed as well, it has not actually happened yet, so for the time being we can give book-Mace the benefit of the doubt and consider him the best survivor of the Hands we know.

[ummester]

Yes, I know that THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER named me "the third most powerful writer in Hollywood" last December. You would be surprised at how little that means. I cannot control what anyone else says or does, or make them stop saying or doing it, be it on the fannish or professional fronts. What I can control is what happens in my books, so I am going to return to that chapter I've been writing on THE WINDS OF WINTER now, thank you very much.

You know, it seems a bit arrogant to me that GRRM would even entertain the notion that being a good writer would allow him to control people. Especially for an older guy? Did he seriously say this?

[Philpenn]

Coworker told me about this yesterday. Happy to be able to disregard all theories of the "Night King" being the Night's King.

[Cas Stark]

You know, it seems a bit arrogant to me that GRRM would even entertain the notion that being a good writer would allow him to control people. Especially for an older guy? Did he seriously say this?

I don't know, if I were him I would want to make Benioff stop using me as a shield for the poor plot and character development he's writing in his show.

I guess if I read that correctly, GRRM found Linda's twitter rant endearing and he won't be cutting ties. LOL.

Do people really still want to try and claim that he and D&D are totally sympatico on the show and he's not at all dissastified and there are no issues there?

[Direwight]

You know, it seems a bit arrogant to me that GRRM would even entertain the notion that being a good writer would allow him to control people. Especially for an older guy? Did he seriously say this?

Firstly, It said "powerful", not "good". Secondly, nothing in that indicates that he entertains the notion that he'd be able to control people. Thirdly, of course some people think that he's got enough authority regarding ASOIAF/GoT/whatever that he could "control" what some people say or do, so saying that it isn't so can be taken at face value. Fourthly, everyone entertains the notion of being able to control people anyway.

Seems like a very neutral statement to me, not an indication of some kind of abnormal desire to control people.

[Pizza Roll]

There is absolutely no reason to believe ASOIAF has any kind of Evil Dark Lord Of Doom character, and seeing how such a character is a trite cliché, it's absolutely unsurprising that D&D thought it would be awesome to make one up.

You're a clever man

Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien — he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy — there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys.

http://ttp://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin

[~DarkHorse~]

So the Night's King is show-fanfiction who wanted to manufacture a Dark Lord...how unsurprising

This could be one of the rare changes I like.

The Night's King is an interesting character, especially if the show include the backstory and not just the cool name. I will be disappointed if the Others have no leader/character to associate them with in the books. Giving them a leader makes it look like they have intelligence and a strategy as opposed to being a disorganized force being controlled by god knows what. They would just be a species where you can't differentiate one between the other, an army without a King or a commander. Maybe, it is just me but I don't find that appealing. It also means we are likely to get an epic duel between the Night's King and Jon (possibly Dany via dragon back) which would be cool.

[ummester]

Firstly, It said "powerful", not "good". Secondly, nothing in that indicates that he entertains the notion that he'd be able to control people. Thirdly, of course some people think that he's got enough authority regarding ASOIAF/GoT/whatever that he could "control" what some people say or do, so saying that it isn't so can be taken at face value. Fourthly, everyone entertains the notion of being able to control people anyway.

Seems like a very neutral statement to me, not an indication of some kind of abnormal desire to control people.

Really? I thought the more natural assumption is that control is ultimately an illusion and the only human you can ever even attempt to control is yourself.

I don't know, if I were him I would want to make Benioff stop using me as a shield for the poor plot and character development he's writing in his show.

I guess if I read that correctly, GRRM found Linda's twitter rant endearing and he won't be cutting ties. LOL.

Do people really still want to try and claim that he and D&D are totally simpatico on the show and he's not at all dissastified and there are no issues there?

Not at all. I think there are definitely issues there - but I think that choosing a side works entirely against what GRRM is trying to preach with his saga. Besides, I don't know either of them in person and as such have no reason to trust what any of them say. I suspect they are all full of shit - and I find this is the most reasonable assumption to make about the majority of people you don't know now, because most of them are :)

But there definitely seem like their are problems in the GRRM, D&D, HBO relationship, brewing just out of sight ATM.

All that matters for me, and I suspect most fans, is how the rest of a story they have become engrossed in is told. The issue I find, when you really try and think about it without bias, or picking a side, is that neither of them know how to tell the rest of this tale to the standard they started it.

[Cas Stark]

Really? I thought the more natural assumption is that control is ultimately an illusion and the only human you can ever even attempt to control is yourself.

Not at all. I think there are definitely issues there - but I think that choosing a side works entirely against what GRRM is trying to preach with his saga. Besides, I don't know either of them in person and as such have no reason to trust what any of them say. I suspect they are all full of shit - and I find this is the most reasonable assumption to make about the majority of people you don't know now, because most of them are :)

But there definitely seem like their are problems in the GRRM, D&D, HBO relationship, brewing just out of sight ATM.

All that matters for me, and I suspect most fans, is how the rest of a story they have become engrossed in is told. The issue I find, when you really try and think about it without bias, or picking a side, is that neither of them know how to tell the rest of this tale to the standard they started it.

It only matters in one of those people, but yes I agree, that person appears to be still mired in some kind of mental abyss, based on his schedule which was allegedly cleared? some time last year, yet still looks chock full of side projects, it is anyone's guess when Winds will come out and what kind of structure it's going to have. Truth be told, the Ds were always riding on GRRMs work, the further they've gotten from it, the more they have faltered, I'm not saying they have no talent, but they are seriously overrated and given much too much credit for the show's success, which mostly belongs to the author and Nina Gold the casting director.

[ummester]

It only matters in one of those people, but yes I agree, that person appears to be still mired in some kind of mental abyss, based on his schedule which was allegedly cleared? some time last year, yet still looks chock full of side projects, it is anyone's guess when Winds will come out and what kind of structure it's going to have. Truth be told, the Ds were always riding on GRRMs work, the further they've gotten from it, the more they have faltered, I'm not saying they have no talent, but they are seriously overrated and given much too much credit for the show's success, which mostly belongs to the author and Nina Gold the casting director.

For sure - they were riding on his work. They were adapting it.

I do believe they did start as his biggest fans - something just seems to have happened that has pushed them somewhat apart and I can't really guess at what, though I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with a disconnected element, like cast disagreeing with how their characters are portrayed, or something, than either of them. Though I do believe it would be better for the story overall if GRRM was still working closely with D&D and telling it through them.

I mean this is the thing here - GoTs has become like Star Wars, it has become a cultural phenomenon, a story that is bigger than any of its cast, D&D, HBO or GRRM. They should all work together to best service the story, if they really were all better people. Unfortunately, just like the characters in GRRMs books, and like George Lucas, none of them probably are better people - they are all too full of their own misgivings and the story, that is worth more than any of them ever could be, will suffer as a result. As much as George Lucas tried, he could never really control Star Wars, he never really owned it - once it got out there it became its own thing. GRRM, D&D, HBO and probably the cast should all learn from that and put the story in front of any of them.

[GilletteMace]

egos and success... on all sides.