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Small Questions v.10101


Jon Weirgaryen

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Lysa's pregnancy was certainly an accident.. Jon Arryn didn't need a new wife until after the Battle of the Bells. Which happened months after LF had been sent away from Riverrun.

You suggest that Hoster wanted LF to sleep with Lysa and get her pregnant, at a time where Jon Arryn still have two living heirs. Next, you propose that Lysa remained pregnant for multiple months, (at which time, the pregnancy would have been visible), until Jon Arryn's heirs both died (which Hoster could not have predicted), and he begs for Hosters help.

Which also doesn't make the fact that Jon's marriage to Lysa was arranged after the Battle of the Bells (death of his last heir), while Ned's marriage to Catelyn seems to have been arranged before.

Lysa's pregnancy was definitely an accident if she was given moon tea after she revealed she was pregnant. If she was given moon tea after she was married it almost certainly was not.

In Hosters pre-death ramblings about "tansy" and you will have other sons and trueborn too. Cat comes to the conclusion that when Lysa believed she was pregnant following her marriage she actually was. Cat thought Hoster was comforting her about the miscarriage. We know from Lysa that he was comforting her after the moon tea.

If Cat was right and Lysa was pregnant that first time and Hoster comforted her after it, Lysa was given moon tea after her marriage.

Jon Arryn's spouse was not killed at the battle of the bells, his nephew was. Jon had an heir but no children--not for lack of trying. A lady from a great house, proven to be fertile was what Jon Arryn needed to continue his line before the battle of the bells.

Hoster's rift with the Blackfish was over a failed arranged marriage, Hoster had tried to marry Lysa off to Jamie, Hoster betrothed Cat to Brandon.... It is a fair assessment to say Hoster was actively shopping his relatives that were of marrying age at the time of Lysa's accidental pregnancy.

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She would have had to get into the castle to get to the bolt hole out the sewer, and the bolt hole wouldn't have done her any good since it doesn't exit the city, which only adds to the problem since it emptied into the river!

I think I might be confused. Aren't the docks on the river? Didn't Arya have to bully her way past the gold cloaks to get back into one of the gates?

It's probably moot anyhow since I doubt she could find the sewer again if she wanted to.

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I think I might be confused. Aren't the docks on the river? Didn't Arya have to bully her way past the gold cloaks to get back into one of the gates?

It's probably moot anyhow since I doubt she could find the sewer again if she wanted to.

Nope. She bullied her way past guardsvat the castle.
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Does the general population/other kingsguard know that Ser Duncan the Tall is the same guy who caused the trial at the Ashford?

I'd say, yes, the story would be known, wouln't it? And no, Dunk did not actually cause the trial. He played a very important role in rescuing the innocent from government violence, which eventually culminated in the trial and the death of Prince Baelor.

Prince Aerion is the one to blame, if I was being asked.

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Lysa's pregnancy was definitely an accident if she was given moon tea after she revealed she was pregnant. If she was given moon tea after she was married it almost certainly was not.

In Hosters pre-death ramblings about "tansy" and you will have other sons and trueborn too. Cat comes to the conclusion that when Lysa believed she was pregnant following her marriage she actually was. Cat thought Hoster was comforting her about the miscarriage. We know from Lysa that he was comforting her after the moon tea.

If Cat was right and Lysa was pregnant that first time and Hoster comforted her after it, Lysa was given moon tea after her marriage.

"She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father’s care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert’s rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. “Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they’ll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They’ll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it.” She was so happy.

But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child . . ." -ASoS p. 38-39

Catelyn describes Lysa getting her moon blood, not a violent abortion that Hoster mumbles about.

If Lysa was still pregnant from LF she would have been 4-5 months pregnant which would have been a violent and blood abortion. This scenario is not possible.

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Does the general population/other kingsguard know that Ser Duncan the Tall is the same guy who caused the trial at the Ashford?

I would not say it was widely known, but it wasnt a secret either

"Sixteen years ago." Dunk's mellow winey haze was gone. He felt angry, and near sober. "Lord Butterwell's steward is the master of the games, a man named Cosgrove. Find him and enter my name for the lists. No, wait ... hold back my name." With so many lords on hand, one of them might recall Ser Duncan the Tall from Ashford Meadow. "Enter me as the Gallows Knight." The smallfolk loved it when a Mystery Knight appeared at a tourney.

The Mystery Knight
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"She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father’s care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert’s rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. “Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they’ll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They’ll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it.” She was so happy.

But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child . . ." -ASoS p. 38-39

Catelyn describes Lysa getting her moon blood, not a violent abortion that Hoster mumbles about.

If Lysa was still pregnant from LF she would have been 4-5 months pregnant which would have been a violent and blood abortion. This scenario is not possible.

Lord Hoster groaned. "Dead," his hand groped for hers. " You'll have others... sweetbabes and trueborn"

"Forgive me" he said so softly she could scarcely hear the words. "Tansy.... blood... the blood... gods be kind..."

The violent bloody abortion Hoster mumbles about--- which does fit the your description of an abortion of 4-5 months...

Cat reflects...

Lysa had miscarried five times, twice in the Eyrie, thrice in King's Landing... but never at Riverrun where Lord Hoster had been there to comfort her. Never, unless... unless she was with child that first time... aSoS ss page 38

"That first time" is after her marriage as you were kind enough to provide the quote for....

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Lord Hoster groaned. "Dead," his hand groped for hers. " You'll have others... sweetbabes and trueborn"

"Forgive me" he said so softly she could scarcely hear the words. "Tansy.... blood... the blood... gods be kind..."

The violent bloody abortion Hoster mumbles about--- which does fit the your description of an abortion of 4-5 months...

Cat reflects...

Lysa had miscarried five times, twice in the Eyrie, thrice in King's Landing... but never at Riverrun where Lord Hoster had been there to comfort her. Never, unless... unless she was with child that first time... aSoS ss page 38

"That first time" is after her marriage as you were kind enough to provide the quote for....

If Lysa was 4-5 months pregnant when she married Jon Arryn Catelyn would have known at the time and not have been guessing about it years later. Everyone would have known.

Also, why would Hoster have LF get his daughter pregnant months before the Robellion broke out?

ETA: Catelyn describes Lysa, after having married Jon and having a wedding night, as having a normal period, and NOT a violent abortion from a 4-5 month pregnancy.

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Who was stuck in the tree before Bloodraven?

What/Who led him to that cave?

1) We don't know.

2) We don't know.

It was most likely a greenseer, either human or a CotF. Though it might have been the case that the CotF (someone like Leaf) brought him there because they were without a greenseer who could still talk/interact, and sought out Bloodraven and brought him there because it is a good place to 'plug into' the Weirnet.

ETA: Also, as LM said, not small questions.

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If Lysa was 4-5 months pregnant when she married Jon Arryn Catelyn would have known at the time and not have been guessing about it years later. Everyone would have known.

Also, why would Hoster have LF get his daughter pregnant months before the Robellion broke out?

ETA: Catelyn describes Lysa, after having married Jon and having a wedding night, as having a normal period, and NOT a violent abortion from a 4-5 month pregnancy.

But when Lysa's blood had come not long after and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child. aSoS ss page 39

This is the "normal period" that you referred to and the "first time" Catelyn referred to as the only time when Lord Hoster would have been at hand to comfort Lysa after a miscarriage. We know from Lysa that Hoster was comforting her from moon tea to abort Littlefinger's child.

Hoster refers to Lysa's baby a son, he calls it dead, and moans about the blood... that does not sound like an early term abortion.

Jon Arryn needed a yound wife, poven to be fertile...

Hoster tried to marry his daughters, to the heir of the Lannisters and Starks. With the Baratheon heir set to marry a Stark, the only great lord or future great lord remaining was Arryn. If Jon Arryn required Lysa to be proven fertile before the marriage, Hoster could hardly refuse.

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But when Lysa's blood had come not long after and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child. aSoS ss page 39

This is the "normal period" that you referred to and the "first time" Catelyn referred to as the only time when Lord Hoster would have been at hand to comfort Lysa after a miscarriage. We know from Lysa that Hoster was comforting her from moon tea to abort Littlefinger's child.

Hoster refers to Lysa's baby a son, he calls it dead, and moans about the blood... that does not sound like an early term abortion.

Jon Arryn needed a yound wife, poven to be fertile...

Hoster tried to marry his daughters, to the heir of the Lannisters and Starks. With the Baratheon heir set to marry a Stark, the only great lord or future great lord remaining was Arryn. If Jon Arryn required Lysa to be proven fertile before the marriage, Hoster could hardly refuse.

Considering this is the small questions thread you could take your crackpot to a thread of it's own.

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But when Lysa's blood had come not long after and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child. aSoS ss page 39

This is the "normal period" that you referred to and the "first time" Catelyn referred to as the only time when Lord Hoster would have been at hand to comfort Lysa after a miscarriage. We know from Lysa that Hoster was comforting her from moon tea to abort Littlefinger's child.

Hoster refers to Lysa's baby a son, he calls it dead, and moans about the blood... that does not sound like an early term abortion.

Jon Arryn needed a yound wife, poven to be fertile...

Hoster tried to marry his daughters, to the heir of the Lannisters and Starks. With the Baratheon heir set to marry a Stark, the only great lord or future great lord remaining was Arryn. If Jon Arryn required Lysa to be proven fertile before the marriage, Hoster could hardly refuse.

Yet by the time Jon needed a fertile wife, LF was long gone..

Also, Lysa had 'early died' from Hoster's moon tea, and Hoster himself comments on 'all that blood', IIRC, which indicates something quite towards the extreme (due to too much tansy, I suspect). Neither of those things are a simple 'she had been a little late'.

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Yet by the time Jon needed a fertile wife, LF was long gone..

Also, Lysa had 'early died' from Hoster's moon tea, and Hoster himself comments on 'all that blood', IIRC, which indicates something quite towards the extreme (due to too much tansy, I suspect). Neither of those things are a simple 'she had been a little late'.

Did Lysa take her moon tea for Littlefinger's child after her marriage?

was the question.

Cat's understanding puts Lysa's miscarriage at after the wedding. Hoster's comments and Lysa's comments in Sansa VII aSoS show the miscarriage to be Lysa's moon tea.

Is there anything in text that proves Cat is mistaken about the timing?

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Thanks, I guess it is unlikely that she got back into the red keep and used the bolt hole she found in AGOT. Are there any theories on how she got out?

Mine is that the fishmarket, outside the city's walls, had to stay available, so you can access it through a postern gate, not guarded. But once you're in the fishmarket, technically outside the city, you can't leave it, because each boat on the Blackwater is guarded (as seen in Arya's chapter), and east and west of the fishmarket guards block the way and forbid anyone to pass.

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Mine is that the fishmarket, outside the city's walls, had to stay available, so you can access it through a postern gate, not guarded. But once you're in the fishmarket, technically outside the city, you can't leave it, because each boat on the Blackwater is guarded (as seen in Arya's chapter), and east and west of the fishmarket guards block the way and forbid anyone to pass.

Thanks! That does make sense. Besides, how can they keep the gates closed for so long anyhow? How are the merchants and farmers going to get back once they have delivered their goods to the markets?

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