Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.5

Recommended Posts

The A+J = T theory puts forth the claim that Tyrion Lannister is the illegitimate son of Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

Note: Individually, none of these clues prove that Tyrion's biological father is Aerys. However, when taken together, these clues provide a strong argument in favor of the theory.

Personal Note: I want to express my thanks to Consigliere who lived up to his name fabulously by editing, reformatting and enhancing my prior OP in the manner presented below (which is a tremendous improvement both in terms of the substance and presentation of the OP).

Clues in favor of A+J = T:

- Pale blond hair (sounds closer to Targ color than Lannister color) with patches of black hair (the Black hair could be from Betha Blackwood, the grandmother of Aerys, which might be even more compelling evidence given that there is no known source of black hair on the Lannister side).

- Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

- Fascination with fire (pretended it was dragonfire) and dragons / dreamed of dragons / asked his uncle for a dragon as a gift / admired the dragon skull (while possibly others had some of these traits, readers hear few if any other examples).

- Barristan admits to Dany that Aerys lusted after Joanna, is the woman he would have wanted to marry and took inappropriate liberties during the bedding ceremony at her wedding (not an indication of sex at that time—just that Aerys wanted Joanna).

- Tywin refuses to let Tyrion inherit CR even though Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the King’s Guard and tells Tyrion, “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine” (perhaps actually a confession that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might not be Tywin’s true-born son or perhaps really just a clue from the author).

- Tywin on deathbed telling Tyrion, “You are no son of mine” (either a literal confession or a clue provided by the author).

- Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

- References to Tyrion having cast the shadow of a king.

- Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

- Uses the alias of Hugor Hill (Hugor of the Hill was the name of the first king of the Andals and Hill are bastards from the Westerlands—if Aerys were known to be Tyrion’s father, Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill—and use of the name Hugor Hill could be interpreted to mean that Tyrion is a "royal bastard").

- Tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.” (Perhaps a message from the author that this dwarf really is a bastard).

- Tells Jon, “Most of my kin are bastards,” … “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” (Perhaps a hint from the author that Tyrion and Jon are kin).

- Dreams he has two heads and kills Lannisters, while one head is laughing and one is crying (is the laughing head Targ and the crying head Lannister?).

- Joanna was rumored to have had an affair with Aerys and was dismissed from court by Rhaella because Aerys was making Joanna a whore (suggesting that an affair occurred between Joanna and Aerys while Aerys and Rhaella were married and might have continued even after Joanna married Tywin).

- Joanna visited KL in 272 AC for the Anniversary Tourney and Aerys made a humiliating remark about her breasts. Tywin attempted to resign the next day, and Aerys refused to accept the resignation (this timeline makes the birth of Tyrion in 273 AC consistent with Aerys as the biological father, and Tywin’s desire to resign could be more easily explained as a reaction to an insult regarding her breasts).

- Aerys seems to lose respect for Tywin after the period of time during which Aerys would have impregnated Joanna with Tyrion.

- The fifth book is titled A Dance with Dragons. However the book is not really focused much on the actual dragons or a battle between Targs or Targ descendants (as the Dance OF Dragons was). So why the title? Had GRRM simply decided that because he had picked the title years ago when he thought different material would be covered in that book he nevertheless kept the title? No. The better theory is that the title is a clue. Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) focused on most all of the characters other than Dany, Jon and Tyrion (who are essentially absent from that book) but A Dance with Dragons primarily focuses on these three characters. So the title of book 5 could be an additional clue pointing towards Tyrion being a dragon.

Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard:

  1. Distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark).
  2. Mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye).
  3. Capable rulers but hated nonetheless.
  4. Kinslayers.

Similarities amongst Tyrion, Jon (assuming R+L=J) and Dany:

  1. Mothers died as a result of their births.
  2. Fathers / presumed fathers (Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin and Ned) killed.
  3. Lived in the shadow of older brothers.
  4. Outcasts.
  5. Unexpectedly rose to leadership roles.
  6. Lovers died arguably by their own hand (Shae / Ygritte / Drogo).
  7. Attempted assassinations.
  8. Third child of one of his or her parents (Joanna / Rhaegar / Rhaella).
  9. Each killed someone in a position of power (Tywin / Janos / Kraznys).
  10. Each has been betrayed (Shae / Bowen / MMD).
  11. Each used the help of "raiding" warrior tribes in battle (Mountain Clan / Wildings / Dothraki)

Frequently Asked Questions / Counter Arguments:




1. Would the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion be undermined?

This is entirely subjective. Some readers will consider the relationship ruined and others enhanced by finding out that Tywin rightfully suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Assuming the author was planning such a development in the narrative, the author had sufficient leeway to write the relationship as he did, particularly given that any reveal of Tyrion’s birth father will occur only after Tywin is dead. GRRM might not consider a revelation after Tywin’s death to have any real effect on the import their interactions (or might even consider them more interesting in light of the revelation).

2. If Aerys raped Joanna, wouldn’t she have taken moon tea instead of carrying the pregnancy to term?

The evidence is somewhat ambiguous whether Joanna went to Aerys willingly, so the encounter might not have been rape. Even if Aerys raped Joanna, Joanna might have had her own reasons to carry the fetus to term (we have been told little about Joanna or her personality or values). Further, moon tea might not be 100% effective, so she might have taken moon tea, which failed. Other forms of terminating a pregnancy in Westeros might require more extreme measure that Joanna either might not have been able to obtain or might not have wanted to take the risks involved. In addition, Joanna might have thought it was most likely Tywin’s child and did not want to terminate the pregnancy under these circumstances. Bottom line, we don’t know enough about Joanna or the circumstances of the pregnancy to conclude that Joanna definitely would have terminated the pregnancy.

3. Genna says to Jaime, “I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” Does this imply that Tyrion is Tywin's biological son?

Not necessarily. Genna was talking personality and not necessarily inherited traits. Tyrion wanted Tywin’s approval and thus would try to be like Tywin. Tywin’s refusal to speak to his sister for one-half a year indicates that Tywin might have been upset because he was reminded that the son most like himself was the one that might not even really be Tywin’s biological son.

4. Tommen’s hair also is pale blond, and he certainly is 100% Lannister.

As he grew older, Tommen’s hair became golden blond, while Tyrion’s hair remained pale blond as an adult.

5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

- A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

- If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

- His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

- His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

- His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

- His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

6. GRRM inserted these “clues” intentionally to serve as red herrings.

A typical definition of red herring is “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.” Usually, such a misleading or distracting clue is intended to prevent the actual solution to a mystery from being too obvious to the readers (classically, for example, by introducing multiple suspects in a murder to keep the identity of the real murderer from being discovered too easily). Further, a red herring often is explicitly stated as a potential theory by a character. If A+J=T is a red herring, the true “mystery” from which the theory serves as a distraction is unclear. Certainly, no other mystery that has been explicitly introduced in the series is obscured by the introduction of these clues regarding A+J=T. In addition, no character explicitly contemplates that Aerys might be the biological father to Tyrion. Thus, the clues for A+J=T do not satisfy any of these criteria for a typical red herring.

7. Tywin would not give Tyrion a classic Lannister name if there were doubt as to paternity.

Tyrion probably is named after Tyrion the Tormentor, a Lannister king who enjoyed making women bleed. Tywin might have found the reference irresistible given the nature of Joanna’s death (which likely involved quite a bit of blood after Tyrion’s birth).

8. What about the SSM stating that Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned; suggesting that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father?

This analysis reads too much into an SSM. It is not possible to know for sure what was going through GRRM’s mind when answering the question. This sentence was not part of a carefully crafted piece of literature but a quick written answer to questions (notice the grammatical error, using “like” rather than “likely” shows that it was likely written quickly). R+L=J is a more widely circulated theory than A+J=T, so GRRM might have thought the need to refer to Ned by name for clarity sake, but did not think the same care was needed for the reference to Tywin. Bottom line, the SSM never explicitly states that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father, just references Tywin as Tyrion’s father, which Tywin was regardless of the identity of Tyrion’s birth father. Because GRRM is careful to refer to Ned as “Ned” rather than “Jon’s father” does not guarantee that GRRM would take the same care with Tywin, particularly if GRRM wanted the mystery of A+J=T to remain hidden to those readers who uncovered R+L=J.

Additional Analysis:

Links to Previous Threads:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's more Jamie/Cersei being his children and Tyrion being Tywins true son.

It would make Jamie a kinslayer and would mean he failed to protect his brothers wife and her children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Tywin/Tyrion relationship is clearly tainted by the Tywin/Aerys relationship. Tywin makes some pretty unfair comparisons between Tyrion and Aerys that no one else seems to pick up on, and Tywin is constantly chastising Tyrion for drinking and whoring, which were Aerys' two favorite pastimes. Really, you can read any Tywin/Tyrion conversation and imagine Tywin is speaking to Aerys.



The breaking point in the Tywin/Aerys relationship comes when Aerys claims the gods took Joanna and gave Tyrion to teach Tywin humility. The psychological transference angle isn't hard to piece together.



I don't really accept A+J=T, but I think Tywin might have. I see it as his defining delusion, the Achilles heel of an otherwise invincible man.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's more Jamie/Cersei being his children and Tyrion being Tywins true son.

It would make Jamie a kinslayer and would mean he failed to protect his brothers wife and her children.

Impossible, Joanna was in Casterly Rock and Aerys in Kings Landing for a few years before Jaime and Cersei were born.

________________________

The dragon dreams were a strong indicator that Tyrion may be a Targ. I think a strong argument we have too is we are always reminded that the kinslayer is cursed, as Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character it would make sense for him not to be a kinslayer, for that Tywin could not be Tyrion's father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The dragon dreams were a strong indicator that Tyrion may be a Targ. I think a strong argument we have too is we are always reminded that the kinslayer is cursed, as Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character it would make sense for him not to be a kinslayer, for that Tywin could not be Tyrion's father.

Dreaming about one day having a dragon doesn't really sound like the other (prophetic) dragondreams we've heard about..

And Tyrion, most likely, would still be regarded a kinslayer in whatever case. If he's not Tywins son, he is his cousin...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion does not only dream about one day having a dragon, he actually dreams about riding a dragon and being a lost Targaryen princeling/Valyrian dragonlord. If he is indeed Aerys' son, and if he becomes a dragonrider, his dreams could easily qualify as prophetic dreams - just as the dreams of Aegon V about dragons flying over Westeros again may have been prophetic dreams about Dany's dragons.



We have to keep in mind that we have never gotten an actual description about Tyrion's dragon dreams as a child, nor has George given us a detailed description (or allowed us to participate in) Tyrion's recent dreams about dragons. I doubt that this is a coincidence. And what we got - him fighting with Selmy and Bittersteel and having two heads like Maelys the Monstrous (one weeping and one laughing) strongly indicates a sort of double identity (Lannister and Targaryen) as well as a psychological imbalance (him not being sure what he wants to do about his family).


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion does not only dream about one day having a dragon, he actually dreams about riding a dragon and being a lost Targaryen princeling/Valyrian dragonlord. If he is indeed Aerys' son, and if he becomes a dragonrider, his dreams could easily qualify as prophetic dreams - just as the dreams of Aegon V about dragons flying over Westeros again may have been prophetic dreams about Dany's dragons.

We have to keep in mind that we have never gotten an actual description about Tyrion's dragon dreams as a child, nor has George given us a detailed description (or allowed us to participate in) Tyrion's recent dreams about dragons. I doubt that this is a coincidence. And what we got - him fighting with Selmy and Bittersteel and having two heads like Maelys the Monstrous (one weeping and one laughing) strongly indicates as a sort of double identity (Lannister and Targaryen) as well as a psychological imbalance (him not being sure what he wants to do about his family).

:agree:

Especially the latter is a great pick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion does not only dream about one day having a dragon, he actually dreams about riding a dragon and being a lost Targaryen princeling/Valyrian dragonlord. If he is indeed Aerys' son, and if he becomes a dragonrider, his dreams could easily qualify as prophetic dreams - just as the dreams of Aegon V about dragons flying over Westeros again may have been prophetic dreams about Dany's dragons.

We have to keep in mind that we have never gotten an actual description about Tyrion's dragon dreams as a child, nor has George given us a detailed description (or allowed us to participate in) Tyrion's recent dreams about dragons. I doubt that this is a coincidence. And what we got - him fighting with Selmy and Bittersteel and having two heads like Maelys the Monstrous (one weeping and one laughing) strongly indicates a sort of double identity (Lannister and Targaryen) as well as a psychological imbalance (him not being sure what he wants to do about his family).

The fighting with Selmy and Bittersteel with two heads foreshadows his role as the betrayer in the Second Dance of the Dragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think so. I'm not even sure this dream is supposed to foreshadow all that much. It shows that he is conflicted about what he himself wants but the fact that George decided to make him a sort of Targaryen in that dream - Maelys the Monstrous - suggests that there may be more to his blood/ancestry than we used to think. There was no need for two heads, George could have done the same thing with his mismatched eyes for example - say, one laughing and one weeping eye.



We should not look to the First Dance to get hints for the Second. George is trying to not spoil his own books, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think so. I'm not even sure this dream is supposed to foreshadow all that much. It shows that he is conflicted about what he himself wants but the fact that George decided to make him a sort of Targaryen in that dream - Maelys the Monstrous - suggests that there may be more to his blood/ancestry than we used to think. There was no need for two heads, George could have done the same thing with his mismatched eyes for example - say, one laughing and one weeping eye.

We should not look to the First Dance to get hints for the Second. George is trying to not spoil his own books, after all.

Oh yes we should...

She took Ser Arys by the hand, and wove her fingers through his own. "Have you ever seen the arms of House Toland of Ghost Hill?"

He had to think a moment. "A dragon eating its own tail?"

"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again."

The Soiled Knight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's more Jamie/Cersei being his children and Tyrion being Tywins true son.

It would make Jamie a kinslayer and would mean he failed to protect his brothers wife and her children.

I understand the "ironic" satisfaction of having Tyrion being the only "true" child of Tywin -- but other than that "benefit" of such a twist, all of the clues and plot imperatives really point in the opposite direction. WOIAF makes it clear that Joanna and Aerys were at the same location in the year prior to Tyrion's birth but likely nowhere near each other when Cersei and Jaime were conceived. The evidence in the OP for Tyrion being a Targ are much more numerous than any evidence for C&J being Targs (there really are none of note). And the payoff for Tyrion being a Targ is that he would be the third head of the dragon and third dragon rider. I am not sure what would be accomplished from a plot point of view for C&J to be children of Aerys and Tyrion the son of Tywin -- especially given that both fathers are dead.

So while it makes sense to me why you might "want" that plot development to occur -- it seems highly doubtful that it will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion does not only dream about one day having a dragon, he actually dreams about riding a dragon and being a lost Targaryen princeling/Valyrian dragonlord. If he is indeed Aerys' son, and if he becomes a dragonrider, his dreams could easily qualify as prophetic dreams - just as the dreams of Aegon V about dragons flying over Westeros again may have been prophetic dreams about Dany's dragons.

We have to keep in mind that we have never gotten an actual description about Tyrion's dragon dreams as a child, nor has George given us a detailed description (or allowed us to participate in) Tyrion's recent dreams about dragons. I doubt that this is a coincidence. And what we got - him fighting with Selmy and Bittersteel and having two heads like Maelys the Monstrous (one weeping and one laughing) strongly indicates a sort of double identity (Lannister and Targaryen) as well as a psychological imbalance (him not being sure what he wants to do about his family).

lots of character have prophetic dreams. Cersei, Jaime, Sansa are ones that come to mind. Plus shireen.

Dragon dreams are prophetic dreams that is involved with dragons. Tyrion's "dragon dreams" are out of desire, like aegon the unlikely's dreams was.

Aegon's brother daeron had prophetic dreams and he dreamed of dragons coming back again.

Aegon however didn't have dragon dreams, he dreamed of dragons out of desire and want. He confused this with prophetic dreams and thought it meant he would hatch dragons.

People are doing the exact same thing. Confusing dreams of want and desire with dragon dreams.

Plus targaryen hair is silver with gold highlights.

It's not a blend like the show makes it out to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The child who is most like Tywin only for it to turn out Tyrion is not his biological child would be the bigger irony for me.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

Your aware this only helps to disprove this theory. He's seeing targaryens and the blood of targaryens as dragons but he sees tyrion for what he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Tyrion can't be a dragon rider. As I've pointed out before and someone else on another thread, the white dragon foreshadowing foreshadows Jon being a dragon rider.

The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red

White and red are the colours of the old gods and the colour of Ghost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Tyrion can't be a dragon rider. As I've pointed out before and someone else on another thread, the white dragon foreshadowing foreshadows Jon being a dragon rider.

The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red

White and red are the colours of the old gods and the colour of Ghost.

Mmm... reminds me of a certain paste. The first drop is bitter, but it's so satisfying. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion does not only dream about one day having a dragon, he actually dreams about riding a dragon and being a lost Targaryen princeling/Valyrian dragonlord. If he is indeed Aerys' son, and if he becomes a dragonrider, his dreams could easily qualify as prophetic dreams - just as the dreams of Aegon V about dragons flying over Westeros again may have been prophetic dreams about Dany's dragons.

We have to keep in mind that we have never gotten an actual description about Tyrion's dragon dreams as a child, nor has George given us a detailed description (or allowed us to participate in) Tyrion's recent dreams about dragons. I doubt that this is a coincidence. And what we got - him fighting with Selmy and Bittersteel and having two heads like Maelys the Monstrous (one weeping and one laughing) strongly indicates a sort of double identity (Lannister and Targaryen) as well as a psychological imbalance (him not being sure what he wants to do about his family).

Nicely said, sometimes I wish this board had a like button. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fromt the last thread, Jo Maltese said;

Viserion has got golden eyes, not red. This is a key element on my belief of AJT ;-)
As for the absence of dragon foreshadowing in Jon's arc, well, I have to say it has always made me wonder... Sure, there are those huge shadows of him on the wall (a clear wink to dragon ID in GRRM's code IMHO) but otherwise... Nada. Therefore I am not sure he is ever going to be a rider. He is The Dragon after all, the PtwP and AA (my belief) so he does not need a dragon but he needs Lightbringer (Dawn? Longclaw? Dany?)
As for AJT, yes, I remember how much disdain I got for developing on it on this forum (then a newbie) a few years ago from the self-promoted guardians of the Song significance... Funny, you do not hear them much these days...

I was thinking about this some more. If Ghost must die to let Jon live then he will be without magical animal and will definitely get a dragon. if Ghost lives, then I agree with you that Jon may not ride a dragon.

******Yes you do not hear anything from that group these days, more than anything I am sure that it is because the books and the short stories have not been going their way. They were wrong about many many things and were too embarrassed to keep coming on here, mainly they all just hated the Targaryens and Dany to the extreme. But I always have said, like it or not, these books are about the Targs.....

I don't think so. I'm not even sure this dream is supposed to foreshadow all that much. It shows that he is conflicted about what he himself wants but the fact that George decided to make him a sort of Targaryen in that dream - Maelys the Monstrous - suggests that there may be more to his blood/ancestry than we used to think. There was no need for two heads, George could have done the same thing with his mismatched eyes for example - say, one laughing and one weeping eye.

We should not look to the First Dance to get hints for the Second. George is trying to not spoil his own books, after all.

I think the dream is clearly a dragon dream, it is Tyrion seeing the last Blackfyre Rebellion. Think about it, he has this dream 2 days after meeting Ilyrio Mopatis for the first time, the last Blackfyre alive who has been planning to put fAegon on the IT for 20 years or so in secret. He already has the golden company working for him. TYrion knows none of that, yet here he is having a dream about Bittersteel, the founder of the GC and one of the half brothers of Dameon Blackfyre. A staunch figure int he Blackfyre history. Tyrion has never met Bittersteel, nor has he ever seen a dragon in real life, but they are both in this very significant dream. Bittersteel represents Illyrio and the Blackfyre's, they all fight for the same cause, to put a Blackfre back on the throne..... and Tyrion has 2 heads because he will have to chose which side of himself he will embrace, the Targaryen side or the Lannister side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×