A+J=T v.5

[Weirdo]

And there we go again with the "And". You can't have it one way and not the other. You know which I speak about.

That 'and' is so genius I bet George spent a day writing that one sentence, then treated himself to a week off. That sentence is uncrackable.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That's the thing though.. wouldn't he see them either ar dragons or as humans? The fact that he is able to identify Tyrion would then imply he saw Tyrion as a human, while he appears to have seen dragons for all the others.

There are a few reasons why Moqorro would refer to Tyrion as a man but the other only as dragons. What I think KVT IV is suggesting -- and it makes sense to me -- is that when Moqorro sees someone in a vision that he actually has met, the person appears as himself (or herself) in the vision. For people that Moqorro has never met, they only appear as a symbol. Moreover, it is also possible that perhaps Moqorro sees Tyrion as a dragon in the vision, but understands that this dragon is Tyrion and so references that dragon as Tyrion to Tyrion. Moqorro simply might decide not to be explicit in telling Tyrion that he appears as a dragon in the vision but leaves that information ambiguous. And arguably Moqorro DOES refer to Tyrion as a dragon explicitly, depending on how people view the word "And" (as discussed by others up-thread).

The bottom line is that each and every clue has an alternative explanation. GRRM will NOT at this point make an clue consistent ONLY with AJT. GRRM wants the readers not to be 100% sure and does not want to leave a clue that could reasonably be understood ONLY to mean AJT. And the OP acknowledges this fact. When I wrote the OP (go back to my original OP from v.2 of this thread (before consigliere edited it and made it more user friendly) and see that this language relating to Moqorro has basically been the same for each version of this thread), I was careful to acknowledge that Moqorro's vision could be read to mean that Tyrion merely was among the other dragons and was not a dragon.

The point of the OP is to give anyone who is interested all the basic information in the text of the various books that could be understood to point toward AJT. But as I have stated many times before, every single clue has an alternative "innocent" explanation. No one clue is consistent ONLY with AJT. While some are harder to explain away than others, not one has been presented in a way that doesn't give GRRM an "out" if it turns out that AJT is not true. The argument essentially is that the accumulation of evidence is what makes the theory so powerful -- not any one "sliver bullet" that serves as "proof" of the theory.

Why would GRRM put in so many clues that reasonably could be interpreted to mean that AJT is true? Tyrion's parentage is never explicitly presented as a mystery and no one ever speculates out loud that Aerys might be the father of Tyrion -- so these clues don't fit the normal definition of a red herring. As Ran stated, the revelations in WOIAF regarding Joanna at KL in the year prior to Tyrion's birth added "fuel to the fire" of AJT. Why would GRRM do that? Is it just an accident and GRRM really was just adding an interesting "world building" side anecdote that "accidentally" points in favor of AJT and GRRM really was not thinking about AJT at all when he wrote that part of WOIAF? Is GRRM simply "punking" his loyal fans to give them something to obsess about before WoW is published because GRRM likes to get people discussing stupid theories that will not be true?

It is easy to pick apart each individual piece of evidence as not "proving" AJT. Destruction is always easier than construction. No one has asserted that any one piece of evidence is "proof" of AJT. The question is why are there so many pieces of evidence that suggest that Tyrion is a dragonseed? Why does GRRM give Tyrion hair color different than the other Lannisters? Why does GRRM only have 3 main characters who have mothers who die in childbirth -- Dany (a known Targ), Jon (who almost certainly will be revealed to be a Targ) and Tyrion? Why does GRRM have Tyrion fascinated with dragons when no other non-Targ character seems to be described as having this fascination? Why does GRRM bother to let the readers know that Joanna was in KL the year prior to Tyrion's birth?

Could these all be innocent coincidences? I really don't think so -- GRRM is too careful a writer for that. Could they be a red herring? I don't think so -- as explained above, it does not fit the normal definition of a red herring. Could it be misdirection of a different kind? I don't think so -- misdirection needs a purpose and I don't see what these clues could be misdirection for. Could it be GRRM is just having fun misleading some readers? Maybe, but GRRM seems to be more serious of a writer than to lay out a bunch of clues (some going back to the first book) just to have it go nowhere in order to fool a handful of hard core fans.

So my challenge to you -- or any other opponents of AJT -- is the following. Don't be destructive -- be constructive. Don't pick at individual clues to show they don't "prove" AJT is correct. We all know that each individual clue can have an "innocent" explanation. And while the "story arc" type analysis (such as it "ruins" the Tywin/Tyrion relationship) is valid, it is completely subjective (some think it enhances the Tywin/Tyrion relationship, for example, and we have no idea which side GRRM really is on) and avoids addressing the mounting evidence in favor of AJT. So my basic challenge is for someone to give an alternative explanation for why GRRM would put all of the clues outlined in the OP into the story if most of these clues will amount to nothing.

[Gerg Sknab]

Red Herring!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

He sees Tyrion because he knows who Tyrion is. If he knew who the 6 other Dragons were he would name them as well.

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

He even says AND YOU. Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Daenerys) and false (fAegon), bright (Varys) and Dark (Ilryio and the Blackfyres), and you (Tyrion)

Yes that is exactly how I see it as well. Varys is the Brightflame and Illyrio is the Blackfyre :)

Tyrion can continue the line if he indeed is Aerys' son - with Sansa. If Dany is really infertile, or if she is otherwise unavailable (for example, if she dies in the final fights against the Others), that's a possible outcome. Especially taking into account that a resurrected Jon is unlikely to be fertile himself (could Melisandre get a normal child? I doubt it).

A surprising move in the last ep was that Varys joined Tyrion in Meereen. It looks like Tyrion takes over Barristan's position as governor of the city (conveniently close to the dragons) and Varys can take over those parts of Barristan that would require knowledge of Aerys' past.

ohhhh Good call :)

Nothing really happened Sunday that was all that different than the books.

I will summarize in a spoiler box so as not to offend those who don't want us mentioning events from the show on this forum (a peculiar and annoying rule):

Jon is stabbed in both. The likelihood and manner of him being saved in the next season/book is the same in the show as it is at the end of DwD. Theon and the "bride" (Sansa rather than fake Arya) escape from Winterfell (cutting out them getting to Stanis's camp in the show but the basic thrust of that story line seems somewhat consistent once one replaces fake Arya with Sansa -- which of course, means Sansa is doing different stuff on the show than the books). Arya goes blind (cuts off before she regains sight -- but likely will happen in S6).Dany gets to Dothraki Sea (cuts off before being taken to the Dothraki capital but likely to happen in S6). Stannis may be dead in battle (from Briene rather than Boltons but same threat to Stannis in a larger sense). One difference is Myrcella's fate -- but Maggy the Frog's prophecy has told the readers long ago of her eventual fate one way or the other. Cersei's story arc basically went more or less the same way. I don't really see major differences in the overall story arcs.

So what is really the cause of the freak-out?

Well it really came after the episode when Kit Harrington says he is not on next season at all. Then I went on RLJ thread and talked it out and realized that Jon is also not coming back, his body will die and he will live his 2nd life inside Ghost......and then possibly....Hodor :(.

As far-fetched as it is, it really does make a lot of sense and lines up with everything so far.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130335-rlj-v144/page-17#entry7111214

This is the post that sums it all up^^^

SO I am just very sad about it, I want Jon back in his old body, and I want Kit back :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: .

PLus, then i realized there is no more male sperm for house Targaryen except Tyrion, so that also made me freak out, the line is ending, the house will be extinct after Dany :bawl: :bawl:

Also I am upset about Stannis

[Gibzit]

Well it really came after the episode when Kit Harrington says he is not on next season at all. Then I went on RLJ thread and talked it out and realized that Jon is also not coming back, his body will die and he will live his 2nd life inside Ghost......and then possibly....Hodor :(.

As far-fetched as it is, it really does make a lot of sense and lines up with everything so far.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130335-rlj-v144/page-17#entry7111214

This is the post that sums it all up^^^

SO I am just very sad about it, I want Jon back in his old body, and I want Kit back :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: .

PLus, then i realized there is no more male sperm for house Targaryen except Tyrion, so that also made me freak out, the line is ending, the house will be extinct after Dany :bawl: :bawl:

Ever heard of matrileaneal marriages?

[Wouter]

Kit is simply lying. He is an actor, if D&D ask him that then it's part of his job. No need to freak out.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No...I just googled it and I think I understand. That the line passes through the mother instead of father?

Like Illyrio?

[Gibzit]

No...I just googled it and I think I understand. That the line passes through the mother instead of father?

Like Illyrio?

Yup.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yup.

Well yeah Dany could possibly continue the line, but she needs a Male Targ or her kids lose half of her BOTD.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Red Herring!

Please go on. A red herring is a misleading clue. Here is the relevant definition from dictionary.com:

something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.

As you can see from this definition, the purpose of a red herring is to divert the reader from figuring out what is really going to happen. For example, assuming RLJ to be true, Wylla or Ashara as the mother serve as red herrings because they give the readers an alternative explanation that make it less likely the reader will consider Lyanna to be Jon's mother. So giving the readers the suggestion that Wylla or Ashara might be Jon's mother fits the definition because the information diverts attention (by making the reader consider that Wylla or Ashara might be the mother) from the real problem or matter at hand (i.e., that Lyanna really is the mother) and thus serves as a misleading clue (making the readers try to figure out between Wylla and Ahara -- when the answer is really neither but actually Lyanna).

So please explain here what is the "real problem or matter at hand" for which the clues for AJT serve? What is the "real mystery" that is less likely to be solved because the readers are thinking that AJT is the case and thus are less likely to figure out the solution to the real mystery?

And note that Wylla and Ashara are not "hidden clues" but rather clues that are out there in the open. Robert speculates that Wylla is the mother and Cat speculates that Ashara is the mother. So the readers don't have to examine indirect clues that have multiple meanings to find the red herring. It is odd for GRRM to make AJT a red herring and then make all the clues in favor of AJT so ambiguous without anyone ever suggesting directly that AJT might be true.

So please -- saying "red herring" is not an argument. Please explain precisely how it works as a red herring.

[Gibzit]

Well yeah Dany could possibly continue the line, but she needs a Male Targ or her kids lose half of her BOTD.

If she really wants to keep the silver hair she could allways marry a Lyseni/Velaryon or something.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes that is exactly how I see it as well. Varys is the Brightflame and Illyrio is the Blackfyre :)

ohhhh Good call :)

Well it really came after the episode when Kit Harrington says he is not on next season at all. Then I went on RLJ thread and talked it out and realized that Jon is also not coming back, his body will die and he will live his 2nd life inside Ghost......and then possibly....Hodor :(.

As far-fetched as it is, it really does make a lot of sense and lines up with everything so far.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130335-rlj-v144/page-17#entry7111214

This is the post that sums it all up^^^

SO I am just very sad about it, I want Jon back in his old body, and I want Kit back :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: .

PLus, then i realized there is no more male sperm for house Targaryen except Tyrion, so that also made me freak out, the line is ending, the house will be extinct after Dany :bawl: :bawl:

Also I am upset about Stannis

I have been reading that theory from addictedtosnow for months now. It is nonsense. Jon is not coming back in Hodor. Jon is TPTWP. Jon must come back as Jon.

Kit almost certainly is lying. He may be missing from most of S6 while in Ghost, but he will be back either by the end of S6 or beginning of S7

As to Stannis, I have been fairly certain for a while that Stannis never makes it out of the North. He just does not fit into the overall story arc that is happening in Westeros. The action in the South will move to Cersei vs. the Faith and then the invasion by Aegon and then the invasion by Dany. There is no room for Stannis to be a player in the South again, and Stannis needs to die eventually for Jon to be clear to lead the charge in the North. So I would have hoped you were ready for whatever happens to Stannis

And I am not sure whether Brienne spared his life anyway. We never saw the sword cut off his head the way we did for Ned's death.

[Wouter]

Well yeah Dany could possibly continue the line, but she needs a Male Targ or her kids lose half of her BOTD.

Half the blood is still continuing the line, the Stark children also are only half the blood.

And if this means that the dragonriding gene will be lost within a couple of generations, that may well be part of the bittersweet ending that GRRM says he is aiming for. It is a bit of a theme that the magical creatures are slowly disappearing, in spite of a "last hurrah".

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have been reading that theory from addictedtosnow for months now. It is nonsense. Jon is not coming back in Hodor. Jon is TPTWP. Jon must come back as Jon.

Kit almost certainly is lying. He may be missing from most of S6 while in Ghost, but he will be back either by the end of S6 or beginning of S7

As to Stannis, I have been fairly certain for a while that Stannis never makes it out of the North. He just does not fit into the overall story arc that is happening in Westeros. The action in the South will move to Cersei vs. the Faith and then the invasion by Aegon and then the invasion by Dany. There is no room for Stannis to be a player in the South again, and Stannis needs to die eventually for Jon to be clear to lead the charge in the North. So I would have hoped you were ready for whatever happens to Stannis

And I am not sure whether Brienne spared his life anyway. We never saw the sword cut off his head the way we did for Ned's death.

ok I hope you are right. I am worried because what else is the point of showing us about the 2nd life in Varamyr's chapter? It'll have to come into play at some point. And that stuff about Jojen knowing a white wolf kills him does make a lot of sense.

yes I really really hope Kit is lying, or that D&D are lying to him and we are all getting tricked. that kind of international hoax would be OK with me if it means we get Jon back.

Well I was not prepared for Stannis to go down that way, especially not to Ramsay. Ramsay should have no victories. and just the HBO spoiler fact bothered the hell out of me wrt Stannis. This next book had better freaking come out in the next 8 months!!!!!

Half the blood is still continuing the line, the Stark children also are only half the blood.

And if this means that the dragonriding gene will be lost within a couple of generations, that may well be part of the bittersweet ending that GRRM says he is aiming for. It is a bit of a theme that the magical creatures are slowly disappearing, in spite of a "last hurrah".

that's a good point, that bittersweet ending would be better than what I'm picturing lol. GRRM's version of bittersweet could be "oh yeah all the humans died and the white walkers are on the IT now, but there is no more war." or something crazy.

[Wouter]

that's a good point, that bittersweet ending would be better than what I'm picturing lol. GRRM's version of bittersweet could be "oh yeah all the humans died and the white walkers are on the IT now, but there is no more war." or something crazy.

GRRM has been described (by Elio/Ran) as a romantic, not as a nihilist. Some of his fans are the latter and are looking forward to the end being endless cold winds raging over mass graves, but I do think GRRM will have his heroes (mostly) prevail in the end. At serious cost, though.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I would not be happy with that at all, Sauron cant win and Aragorn cant die!!!!

[UnmaskedLurker]

ok I hope you are right. I am worried because what else is the point of showing us about the 2nd life in Varamyr's chapter? It'll have to come into play at some point. And that stuff about Jojen knowing a white wolf kills him does make a lot of sense.

yes I really really hope Kit is lying, or that D&D are lying to him and we are all getting tricked. that kind of international hoax would be OK with me if it means we get Jon back.

Well I was not prepared for Stannis to go down that way, especially not to Ramsay. Ramsay should have no victories. and just the HBO spoiler fact bothered the hell out of me wrt Stannis. This next book had better freaking come out in the next 8 months!!!!!

that's a good point, that bittersweet ending would be better than what I'm picturing lol. GRRM's version of bittersweet could be "oh yeah all the humans died and the white walkers are on the IT now, but there is no more war." or something crazy.

The point of talking about the second life is that GRRM wants the readers to think that Jon is dead while Jon is in Ghost. My theory is that Jon takes off North of the Wall and the readers are basically not told what is going on at the Wall for quite a few chapters. During that time, Jon will be in Ghost and will incorrectly assume he is living his "second life" in Ghost and his original body is gone forever. I think someway, somehow, his body either will turn out not to be dead -- OR -- because he warged into Ghost, when he is resurrected, he won't be UnJon, but will be the original full-Jon (as going into Ghost will have prevented losing part of his "soul"). Of course, I am not sure how all this action plays out, but it makes sense to me that Jon thinks he is dead and stuck in Ghost, but eventually, somehow, Jon is able to get back into his own body and is fully and completely himself again -- other than being changed from the experience and having some "wolf-like" character added.

As for what qualifies as bittersweet -- that ending is not bittersweet by any normal person's definition.

GRRM has been described (by Elio/Ran) as a romantic, not as a nihilist. Some of his fans are the latter and are looking forward to the end being endless cold winds raging over mass graves, but I do think GRRM will have his heroes (mostly) prevail in the end. At serious cost, though.

:agree: 100% agree -- and I am getting tired of listening to all the nihilists predict that GRRM will give the series a nihilistic ending. He won't.

[oursisthefury69]

I truly don't think you even can put together all the clues big and small at this point, glad to see the discussion occurring now though.

Just from reading over this last page

1. Hilarious red herring definition exchange.

2. The Moqorro vision is terribly indicative of the spitefully nonsensical manner with which this theory is disputed, where people literally take things like said vision and Aunt Genna's comments to Jaime that're in support of this theory in actuality, yet use them against the theory like "oh well moqorro see's dragons and Tyrion = they're different/Tyrion isn't a dragon." Like no he's being mentioned in the same breath as all the other Dragons/Targs, and noted as casting a large shadow in the midst of them all. How does dwarf cast a large shadow? (which is ftr one of the bigger pieces of evidence in favor going back to like the 2nd Jon chapter in book 1) And whats the alternative to the way its being worded lol? Like you can't buy into it unless GRRM puts it like "dragons..... and you a small man, also a dragon....."

[oursisthefury69]

double post

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yes that is exactly how I see it as well. Varys is the Brightflame and Illyrio is the Blackfyre :)

ohhhh Good call :)

Well it really came after the episode when Kit Harrington says he is not on next season at all. Then I went on RLJ thread and talked it out and realized that Jon is also not coming back, his body will die and he will live his 2nd life inside Ghost......and then possibly....Hodor :(.

As far-fetched as it is, it really does make a lot of sense and lines up with everything so far.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130335-rlj-v144/page-17#entry7111214

This is the post that sums it all up^^^

SO I am just very sad about it, I want Jon back in his old body, and I want Kit back :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: .

PLus, then i realized there is no more male sperm for house Targaryen except Tyrion, so that also made me freak out, the line is ending, the house will be extinct after Dany :bawl: :bawl:

Also I am upset about Stannis

I refuse to go into R+L=J. Those threads are a deep dark hole, from which you will never return. But Jon is not going to be wargin Hodor. Neither Hodor nor anybody else are leaving that cave with all those wights about. If they were waiting to ambush Bran's arrival, it would be a gigantic plot hole to remove them and allow Bran's doomed friends to depart. I suppose Meera might try to fight her way free, but...