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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.5

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Balerion the kitten,



not sure when exactly Cersei, Jaime, or Sansa had prophetic dreams. Jaime has had two weird dreams, yes, but nothing about them seemed prophetic to me. And the only dream of Cersei's I remember was the one about her being cut to pieces by the Iron Throne - which was a nightmare, nothing that's actually going to happen. In regards to Sansa's prophetic dreams I don't remember anything.



Shireen dreamed about dragons eating her - this may nothing but a nightmare, too, referring to the ghastly stone dragons of Dragonstone. There is no indication that she will be eaten by dragons.



Maester Aemon gives us the impression that Egg's dreams were the same sort of dragon dreams as Daeron and Aerion had. It is not for you to dismiss those dreams as 'dreams out of desire'. People usually don't control their dreams, and thus don't dream about stuff they want or desire. The fact that Aegon V wanted to bring the dragons doesn't mean he dreamed about dragons because of that. In fact, I'd expect that Egg's persisting dreams about dragons later in life led him to believe that the dragons could or would actually come back. And as this fit nicely with his policies and intentions to continue with his reforms desire and dreams eventually became intertwined and led to Summerhall.



Tyrion himself seems to believe that he dreamed about dragons because he wanted a dragon, but this does not prove that this is the case. Tyrion does not suspect or assumes that he may have Targaryen blood (or a Targaryen parent) and was thus never inclined to come to the conclusion that he became fascinated by dragons because of his dragon blood. There are hints that he began dreaming about dragons before he even knew what they were since he obviously did not yet know that they had died out when he first asked Gerion for a dragon as nameday present. Surely the first thing anyone would learn about dragons would be the fact that the Targaryens once had dragons but they eventually all died.



Nobody is saying that Tyrion only had special dragon dreams - those dragons involving revenge fantasies were most likely normal dreams. Yet the important thing there is that Tyrion developed a fascination with dragons at all - a Lannister would more likely jump on the lion train, imagining he had a pet lion defending him and devouring his enemies. Tyrion later identifies as a lion repeatedly but, apparently, not in his childhood. He seems to have rationalized his dragon side away - as the silly dream of a dwarf child who wanted to be special fitting symbolically all to well with the fact that the dragons of old were gone from the world (and thus becoming a dragonrider like he dreamed was as silly a hope as growing tall).



People have tried to differentiate between Targaryen prophetic dreams and dreams about literal dragons but this makes no sense to me. The fact that Targaryens see other people with dragon blood as literal dragons in their dreams is a pretty big hint that Targaryens and their descendants actually have literal dragon blood (as Daeron or Daemon II did, apparently, not see other people symbolized by their banners in their dreams). This certainly can lead to a confusion as to whether a Targaryen or a literal dragon is meant when such beast shows in the dream of a Targaryen - in Daeron's dream about Baelor it was easier to realize that a prince was meant than in Daemon's dream about the dragon egg hatching at Whitewalls - but there is simply no basis to assume (as some have done) that the prophetic dragon dreams of the Targaryens always have to refer to non-literal dragons (Targaryens/Blackfyres or their descendants).



I cannot imagine how Egg's dreams about dragons flying over Westeros should not refer to literal dragons. Just as Dany's dreams of the big black dragon prior to the hatching of her dragon eggs was a prophetic vision of Drogon, or part of her bonding process with the dragon eggs eventually leading to/enabling the hatching of the dragon eggs.



LM,



well, I'm not taking that as a hint that the First Dance will resemble the Second Dance closely enough so that we can deduce stuff from our knowledge about the First.


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If A+J=T, then there's plenty of irony if that's what you're after. Tyrion kills Jaime's father, as Jaime kills Tyrion's, for instance.



Also, it's very possible that Tyrion kills Shae in the very same bed where he might have been conceived, which resulted in his mother's death - if that tunnel into the Tower of the Hand (marked by a Targaryen mosaic) was Aerys's way to get to Joanna, then Tyrion took the same route to kill Tywin's lover as Aerys did to 'kill' Tywin's wife. I have a long speculative post about all the symbolism in that chapter in an earlier version of this thread somewhere.


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Your aware this only helps to disprove this theory. He's seeing targaryens and the blood of targaryens as dragons but he sees tyrion for what he is.

No, I am aware of no such thing. I am aware that some people interpret this vision to be evidence against Tyrion being a "dragon". In respect of that view, in the OP, I write the following: "(Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons)." So I admit that it might mean that Tyrion is just among the dragons and not one of the dragons.

But I believe that the better reading is that Tyrion is the seventh dragon among the other 6 dragons. There are reasonable explanations for why the other 6 are described in the vision as "dragons" while Tyrion seems to appear as himself, such as Moqorro has not met the other 6 but has met Tyrion or that maybe Tyrion does appear as a dragon but Moqorro choses not to reveal that fact to Tyrion. Certainly, GRRM could not reveal at that time that Tyrion was a dragon -- so "spoiler" protection required Moqorro not to refer to Tyrion as a dragon.

At a minimum, this vision connects Tyrion to 6 other Targs -- that suggests something.

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fromt the last thread, Jo Maltese said;

I was thinking about this some more. If Ghost must die to let Jon live then he will be without magical animal and will definitely get a dragon. if Ghost lives, then I agree with you that Jon may not ride a dragon.

******Yes you do not hear anything from that group these days, more than anything I am sure that it is because the books and the short stories have not been going their way. They were wrong about many many things and were too embarrassed to keep coming on here, mainly they all just hated the Targaryens and Dany to the extreme. But I always have said, like it or not, these books are about the Targs.....

I think the dream is clearly a dragon dream, it is Tyrion seeing the last Blackfyre Rebellion. Think about it, he has this dream 2 days after meeting Ilyrio Mopatis for the first time, the last Blackfyre alive who has been planning to put fAegon on the IT for 20 years or so in secret. He already has the golden company working for him. TYrion knows none of that, yet here he is having a dream about Bittersteel, the founder of the GC and one of the half brothers of Dameon Blackfyre. A staunch figure int he Blackfyre history. Tyrion has never met Bittersteel, nor has he ever seen a dragon in real life, but they are both in this very significant dream. Bittersteel represents Illyrio and the Blackfyre's, they all fight for the same cause, to put a Blackfre back on the throne..... and Tyrion has 2 heads because he will have to chose which side of himself he will embrace, the Targaryen side or the Lannister side.

Jon is the special snowflake that was promised. He's gonna get the hottest girl, the fastest car and the most bitchin sword. He's gonna keep Ghost and take Drogon. (The can be only one!) And he'll have Satin on the side.

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Balerion the kitten,

not sure when exactly Cersei, Jaime, or Sansa had prophetic dreams. Jaime has had two weird dreams, yes, but nothing about them seemed prophetic to me. And the only dream of Cersei's I remember was the one about her being cut to pieces by the Iron Throne - which was a nightmare, nothing that's actually going to happen. In regards to Sansa's prophetic dreams I don't remember anything.

Shireen dreamed about dragons eating her - this may nothing but a nightmare, too, referring to the ghastly stone dragons of Dragonstone. There is no indication that she will be eaten by dragons.

Maester Aemon gives us the impression that Egg's dreams were the same sort of dragon dreams as Daeron and Aerion had. It is not for you to dismiss those dreams as 'dreams out of desire'. People usually don't control their dreams, and thus don't dream about stuff they want or desire. The fact that Aegon V wanted to bring the dragons doesn't mean he dreamed about dragons because of that. In fact, I'd expect that Egg's persisting dreams about dragons later in life led him to believe that the dragons could or would actually come back. And as this fit nicely with his policies and intentions to continue with his reforms desire and dreams eventually became intertwined and led to Summerhall.

Tyrion himself seems to believe that he dreamed about dragons because he wanted a dragon, but this does not prove that this is the case. Tyrion does not suspect or assumes that he may have Targaryen blood (or a Targaryen parent) and was thus never inclined to come to the conclusion that he became fascinated by dragons because of his dragon blood. There are hints that he began dreaming about dragons before he even knew what they were since he obviously did not yet know that they had died out when he first asked Gerion for a dragon as nameday present. Surely the first thing anyone would learn about dragons would be the fact that the Targaryens once had dragons but they eventually all died.

Nobody is saying that Tyrion only had special dragon dreams - those dragons involving revenge fantasies were most likely normal dreams. Yet the important thing there is that Tyrion developed a fascination with dragons at all - a Lannister would more likely jump on the lion train, imagining he had a pet lion defending him and devouring his enemies. Tyrion later identifies as a lion repeatedly but, apparently, not in his childhood. He seems to have rationalized his dragon side away - as the silly dream of a dwarf child who wanted to be special fitting symbolically all to well with the fact that the dragons of old were gone from the world (and thus becoming a dragonrider like he dreamed was as silly a hope as growing tall).

People have tried to differentiate between Targaryen prophetic dreams and dreams about literal dragons but this makes no sense to me. The fact that Targaryens see other people with dragon blood as literal dragons in their dreams is a pretty big hint that Targaryens and their descendants actually have literal dragon blood (as Daeron or Daemon II did, apparently, not see other people symbolized by their banners in their dreams). This certainly can lead to a confusion as to whether a Targaryen or a literal dragon is meant when such beast shows in the dream of a Targaryen - in Daeron's dream about Baelor it was easier to realize that a prince was meant than in Daemon's dream about the dragon egg hatching at Whitewalls - but there is simply no basis to assume (as some have done) that the prophetic dragon dreams of the Targaryens always have to refer to non-literal dragons (Targaryens/Blackfyres or their descendants).

I cannot imagine how Egg's dreams about dragons flying over Westeros should not refer to literal dragons. Just as Dany's dreams of the big black dragon prior to the hatching of her dragon eggs was a prophetic vision of Drogon, or part of her bonding process with the dragon eggs eventually leading to/enabling the hatching of the dragon eggs.

LM,

well, I'm not taking that as a hint that the First Dance will resemble the Second Dance closely enough so that we can deduce stuff from our knowledge about the First.

Nobody said you had to, bud. Carry on.

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Balerion the kitten,

not sure when exactly Cersei, Jaime, or Sansa had prophetic dreams. Jaime has had two weird dreams, yes, but nothing about them seemed prophetic to me. And the only dream of Cersei's I remember was the one about her being cut to pieces by the Iron Throne - which was a nightmare, nothing that's actually going to happen. In regards to Sansa's prophetic dreams I don't remember anything.

Shireen dreamed about dragons eating her - this may nothing but a nightmare, too, referring to the ghastly stone dragons of Dragonstone. There is no indication that she will be eaten by dragons.

Cersei dreams she's naked on the iron throne, the swords cutting her, while people are laughing at her (clear sign of the walk of shame, naked and being mocked because she couldn't handle power).

Jaime dreams of his mother, something many dreams (targ dreams) have. Jon will almost definitely find out his parentage in the crypt dream and Daenerys fever dreams connected her with long lost ancestors. He also dreamed of seeing cersei sleep with moon boy. He then killed him and smashed Cersei's teeth with his gold hand that worked like a normal one. Foreshadowing he'll kill Cersei with the hands necklace, hands made of gold. The valonqar prophecy states "wrap his hands around your pale white throat".

Courtesy of D&D we've now got a confirmed spoiler for winds

Shireen will get sacrificed. As many good threads have pointed out she will probably be sacrificed by Mel to save Jon, I'm aware the shows different but I don't know how exactly.

Her dream if being eaten by dragons is symbolizing her death by dragons. Jon symbolizing the dragon and eating her and her life force

Sansa did have a dream that had prophetic meaning to it, I'll go look up after this.

And aemon said that their dreams killed them. Aegon's dreams killed him because they weren't true, he wasn't sleep dreaming, his dreams were hope dreams. Like "oh I dream of riding a dragon".

Daeron's dreams killed him because he couldn't handle them. Mentally it broke him because dragon dreams are frightening, as daenerys and daeron have said.

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Well, prophetic dreams should be a little bit more specific to count as prophetic dreams if the only thing pointing towards Cersei's walk is people laughing about her. Where is Tyrion in the real story? He is the main protagonist of Cersei's nightmare, no?



Jaime dreaming about his mother isn't a prophetic dream at all, and neither was his dream about Brienne and him meeting Rhaegar's ghost in the bowels of Casterly Rock.



If we take D&D's talk about Shireen seriously, then Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in the books, too - after all, they say this is George's idea, no? All they did was to move this whole thing into that season whereas George can only do that after Stannis and his daughter are reunited for the burning. The idea that Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen in the books to resurrect Jon makes no sense to me - after all, Jon should come back in the show the same way he does in the books, no? Which means Shireen shouldn't be involved in that at all as she is dead in the show by then.


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And aemon said that their dreams killed them. Aegon's dreams killed him because they weren't true, he wasn't sleep dreaming, his dreams were hope dreams. Like "oh I dream of riding a dragon".

Daeron's dreams killed him because he couldn't handle them. Mentally it broke him because dragon dreams are frightening, as daenerys and daeron have said.

Maybe I am missing your point, but you realize that Aegon and Daeron were both Targs, right?

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Maybe I am missing your point, but you realize that Aegon and Daeron were both Targs, right?

Yes, I said they were brothers.

You do realize not all targs have prophetic dreams right?

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Well, prophetic dreams should be a little bit more specific to count as prophetic dreams if the only thing pointing towards Cersei's walk is people laughing about her. Where is Tyrion in the real story? He is the main protagonist of Cersei's nightmare, no?

Are you suggesting that wasn't prophetic?

Jaime dreaming about his mother isn't a prophetic dream at all, and neither was his dream about Brienne and him meeting Rhaegar's ghost in the bowels of Casterly Rock.

Other dreams as well, moonboy one springs to mind

If we take D&D's talk about Shireen seriously, then Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in the books, too - after all, they say this is George's idea, no? All they did was to move this whole thing into that season whereas George can only do that after Stannis and his daughter are reunited for the burning. The idea that Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen in the books to resurrect Jon makes no sense to me - after all, Jon should come back in the show the same way he does in the books, no? Which means Shireen shouldn't be involved in that at all as she is dead in the show by then.

The show do things completely different. Sansa's in bloody winterfell replacing jeyne. They get to where they want and take different routes. Right now Stannis isn't near shireen, mel is. D&D only said

she would be sacrificed because of kings blood. No mention of how it would happen

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Well, prophetic dreams should be a little bit more specific to count as prophetic dreams if the only thing pointing towards Cersei's walk is people laughing about her. Where is Tyrion in the real story? He is the main protagonist of Cersei's nightmare, no?

Jaime dreaming about his mother isn't a prophetic dream at all, and neither was his dream about Brienne and him meeting Rhaegar's ghost in the bowels of Casterly Rock.

If we take D&D's talk about Shireen seriously, then Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in the books, too - after all, they say this is George's idea, no? All they did was to move this whole thing into that season whereas George can only do that after Stannis and his daughter are reunited for the burning. The idea that Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen in the books to resurrect Jon makes no sense to me - after all, Jon should come back in the show the same way he does in the books, no? Which means Shireen shouldn't be involved in that at all as she is dead in the show by then.

Mel got Stannis and Jon confused once already - looking into the fire, she asked to see Azor Ahai, expecting to see Stannis, then was confused when R'hllor shows her snow. If she puts Shireen in the fire because she believes the Pink Letter and wants to revive Stannis, she might ask R'hllor to revive Azor Ahai, reviving Jon against her expectations. Assuming Jon is this Azor Ahai everyone is talking about.

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Yes, I said they were brothers.

You do realize not all targs have prophetic dreams right?

Yes, I realize that. But what I think I am missing from the analysis is what you are trying to demonstrate from describing those dreams. The dreams of Aegon and Daeron perhaps were prophetic dreams. Just because the dreams killed them does not mean they were not prophetic -- it might mean they misinterpreted the prophecy. For example (not making this argument -- just a possible explanation), Aegon might have thought the dream meant that he was supposed to bring back dragons personally when it really just meant that dragons were destined to come back. So maybe his misinterpretation led to death. I just don't know how we can be sure the dreams were not prophetic dreams. Misunderstanding a prophecy is different than not having a prophecy.

But even if Aegon V did not have prophetic dreams, he certainly dreamed about dragons -- and was a Targ -- and Tyrion dreamed about dragons -- connection? Any other examples of people in the series dreaming about dragons who are not Targs?

Personally, I think Tyrion probably is having prophetic dreams -- but even if they are just dreams about dragons -- these dreams still suggest a Targ connection.

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Mel got Stannis and Jon confused once already - looking into the fire, she asked to see Azor Ahai, expecting to see Stannis, then was confused when R'hllor shows her snow. If she puts Shireen in the fire because she believes the Pink Letter and wants to revive Stannis, she might ask R'hllor to revive Azor Ahai, reviving Jon against her expectations. Assuming Jon is this Azor Ahai everyone is talking about.

Interesting. Just might happen. That certainly would resolve any doubt on who really is AAR, wouldn't it?

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Yes, I realize that. But what I think I am missing from the analysis is what you are trying to demonstrate from describing those dreams. The dreams of Aegon and Daeron perhaps were prophetic dreams. Just because the dreams killed them does not mean they were not prophetic -- it might mean they misinterpreted the prophecy. For example (not making this argument -- just a possible explanation), Aegon might have thought the dream meant that he was supposed to bring back dragons personally when it really just meant that dragons were destined to come back. So maybe his misinterpretation led to death. I just don't know how we can be sure the dreams were not prophetic dreams. Misunderstanding a prophecy is different than not having a prophecy.

But even if Aegon V did not have prophetic dreams, he certainly dreamed about dragons -- and was a Targ -- and Tyrion dreamed about dragons -- connection? Any other examples of people in the series dreaming about dragons who are not Targs?

Personally, I think Tyrion probably is having prophetic dreams -- but even if they are just dreams about dragons -- these dreams still suggest a Targ connection.

Nah not really, the only characters who have ever dreamed of dragons in ASOIAF (in any form, prophetic or not) are, Shireen, Teora, Tyrion and Dany, and Aemon mentions him and his brothers and uncles had them.

We know for a fact that Dany, Shireen, Aemon all have BOTD, House Toland certainly has some Targargyen blood in it. So Tyrion would in fact be the only person who dreams of dragons whom we dont know if he has Targ blood or not. So just by this, what other explanation could there be?

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House Toland certainly has some Targargyen blood in it.

Evidence other than circular logic?

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^^^ LOL get over it.




Targaryens dream about dragons, she even used the word 'dance'.





I dont need 'circular logic', I can read and I have common sense.


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Evidence other than circular logic?

Not really circular logic because Teora is not just having a dream about dragons -- she is having almost certainly a prophetic dream including dragons.

Here is the except where she describes the dream:

It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."
"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."
"I'm not. They're coming."
"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"
Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."
"Seven save us." Lady Nymella gave an exasperated sigh.
"If you did not eat so many creamcakes you would not have such dreams. Rich foods are not for girls your age, when your humors are so unbalanced. Maester Toman says -- "
"I hate Maester Toman," Teora said. Then she bolted from the table, leaving her lady mother to make apologies for her.

I think this exchange describes what looks like a prophetic dream about dragons -- which is something that I thought everyone agreed was done only be people with BotD. The debate seemed to be whether other dreams that only included dragons might not have a Targ connection -- but that everyone agreed that only a Targ has "dragon" dreams which are supposedly prophetic dreams. Well, this seems like a prophetic dream to me -- so that strongly indicates she has BotD.

ETA: Put the WoW quote in spoiler box -- sorry I forgot originally.

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