A+J=T v.5

[Rickyhunt]

I think this is more of wishful thinking on the part of the readers

it is true that tyrion has the pale hair and mismatched eyes but I think he is the true son or Tywin and Joanna

I think Tyrion is much more like Tywin that Cersei or Jaime he has the same brain for politics can be ruthless towards his enemies

I feel it is a complex relationship of father and son one that turns tragic over time

when Tywin says you're no son of mine it is right before he dies when tyrion shoots him with a arrow I doubt Tywin saying that while dying is a clear indicator of him not being his son I mean he was probably mad about dying and I think tyrion replies that unfortunately he is

Tywin hates Tyrion for killing his beloved Joanna for being a dwarf and for his wild antics which he thinks sullies the name of house lannister though I would say murdering little children and telling people to rape women would be much worse but clearly not in Tywin mind

[Winterfell Resident]

I tend to agree that Jamie and Cersei Lannister are both a product of the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen more so than Tyrion Lannister.

 

You have brought up wonderful points However, what I will say is this and that is if Tyrion is a Targaryen so is Jamie and Cersei.

 

Here is my reason for this.

 

 

The Targaryens have a long history of having wed within their family for the simple reason of keeping the blood pure. This goes  back all the way to the days of Valyria.

 

Also, we know that Aerys II Targaryen was named the Mad King because of his erratic actions shortly after leaving captivity from the duskendales.

 

And because of his erratic actions has led to a war that caused the 7 kingdoms to take sides and to remove the incumbent king from power.

 

The point that I am trying to make is this.

 

 

From when they were kids, Jamie and Cersei were extremely close.  There was an incident when Joanna Lannister first discovered Jaimie and Cersei having sexual interactions and that caused her to separate the two of them to different areas of  Casterly Rock.

As they gotten older they have made love numerously and as it has been revealed that their kids are Joffrey,Tommen and Myrcella.

 

I believe this is something that was passed down to them through their genes as far as keeping it in the family. I think it was something that was in them. And it is not their fault if they have a thing for each other.  I just believe it was something passed down to them from another generation. They were just acting out what was in them already but had know idea where it was coming from.  It certainly did not come from the Lannisters family tree as far as incest.

 

After Aerys II Targaryen imprisonment in Duskendale he became erratic and not trusting of others. This and the fact that he was getting those dreams of dragons caused him and most of his family destruction.  For example, having summoned Rickard Stark to Kings Landing to answer for his son Brandon Starks transgressions was understandable. However, killing them and watching one stark watch another stark killed in front of them was erratic. Then the man had the audacity to summon Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn to the courts to answer for some made up stuff was the final straw that broke the camel's back.

 

I say that to say this and that is King Joffrey through the small council had Ned Stark agree to lie about his role in having Joffrey removed from power and to serve out his remaining life at the wall was okay. But, to then renege on the deal that was struck only to behead Ned Stark to show the people of Westeros that he was a ruler to be feared was erratic.

 

This is what led to the true war of the 5 kings and presently has the entire 7 kingdoms in turmoil while the true threat is beyond the wall(the Others).  This was exactly a page from out of the Aerys II Targaryen play book shortly after leaving captivity from Duskendale.

 

The similarities are striking.  When it comes to Jamie and Cersei they are just screwing each other and not caring about what anyone else thinks. Not because they are just defiant but because there is something that is in them.  It is called Genes.

Joffrey's erratic behavior was not something he just decided to one day just have. No, it is just something that was in him. It is called Genes.

 

Now when you look at Tryion Lannister he does not have any of those behavior characteristics. Now I am not trying to say that it has to be found only in someone's behavior but  there was something what Jaimie's aunt, Genna, said to Jaimie when he was at riverrun about Tryion.  She told him that "Your brother Tyrion acts more like Tywin than you do."  She said that in a way where she paused and to let it marinate a bit before she dropped another bombshell.  She told Jaimie that Aerys II Targaryen had a thing for Joanna Lannister and that he wanted to bed her if they still could practice the old ways when the King would have the first rights. 

 

I am not trying to say that this was the slam dunk reason as to why Jamie and Cersei belongs to Aerys II Targaryen but Genna Lannister was around that time and she probably had a very good reason as to why she revealed some of this information to jamie. Maybe because Tywin,the Mad King and Joanna Lannister are all dead. Who knows.  But, Based on these pieces of information I have given  to you, I strongly believe that Jamie and Cersei are children of the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen and not Tyrion.

 

I may get a lot of flack from this reply but I am only basing this on what was written in the books so far.  I hope to hear some of your thoughts on my reply.

[Attitude]

I think we're trying to fill the 'blank' to much. 'The Dragon must have three heads.' With Dany and Jon (R+L=J is quite clear imo) we have two living dragons (Aemon being dead). We're missing one and at this point only Aegon fits the profile, but many think he is fake. Tyrion just fills the blank..

PS. I know that a 'head of the dragon' doesn't have to be a Targ, but having some random guy being the third head, not dragonblood related doesn't make sense, because in the books, only targs are linked to dragons. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

I tend to agree that Jamie and Cersei Lannister are both a product of the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen more so than Tyrion Lannister.

 

You have brought up wonderful points However, what I will say is this and that is if Tyrion is a Targaryen so is Jamie and Cersei.

 

Here is my reason for this.

 

 

The Targaryens have a long history of having wed within their family for the simple reason of keeping the blood pure. This goes  back all the way to the days of Valyria.

 

Also, we know that Aerys II Targaryen was named the Mad King because of his erratic actions shortly after leaving captivity from the duskendales.

 

And because of his erratic actions has led to a war that caused the 7 kingdoms to take sides and to remove the incumbent king from power.

 

The point that I am trying to make is this.

 

 

From when they were kids, Jamie and Cersei were extremely close.  There was an incident when Joanna Lannister first discovered Jaimie and Cersei having sexual interactions and that caused her to separate the two of them to different areas of  Casterly Rock.

As they gotten older they have made love numerously and as it has been revealed that their kids are Joffrey,Tommen and Myrcella.

 

I believe this is something that was passed down to them through their genes as far as keeping it in the family. I think it was something that was in them. And it is not their fault if they have a thing for each other.  I just believe it was something passed down to them from another generation. They were just acting out what was in them already but had know idea where it was coming from.  It certainly did not come from the Lannisters family tree as far as incest.

 

After Aerys II Targaryen imprisonment in Duskendale he became erratic and not trusting of others. This and the fact that he was getting those dreams of dragons caused him and most of his family destruction.  For example, having summoned Rickard Stark to Kings Landing to answer for his son Brandon Starks transgressions was understandable. However, killing them and watching one stark watch another stark killed in front of them was erratic. Then the man had the audacity to summon Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn to the courts to answer for some made up stuff was the final straw that broke the camel's back.

 

I say that to say this and that is King Joffrey through the small council had Ned Stark agree to lie about his role in having Joffrey removed from power and to serve out his remaining life at the wall was okay. But, to then renege on the deal that was struck only to behead Ned Stark to show the people of Westeros that he was a ruler to be feared was erratic.

 

This is what led to the true war of the 5 kings and presently has the entire 7 kingdoms in turmoil while the true threat is beyond the wall(the Others).  This was exactly a page from out of the Aerys II Targaryen play book shortly after leaving captivity from Duskendale.

 

The similarities are striking.  When it comes to Jamie and Cersei they are just screwing each other and not caring about what anyone else thinks. Not because they are just defiant but because there is something that is in them.  It is called Genes.

Joffrey's erratic behavior was not something he just decided to one day just have. No, it is just something that was in him. It is called Genes.

 

Now when you look at Tryion Lannister he does not have any of those behavior characteristics. Now I am not trying to say that it has to be found only in someone's behavior but  there was something what Jaimie's aunt, Genna, said to Jaimie when he was at riverrun about Tryion.  She told him that "Your brother Tyrion acts more like Tywin than you do."  She said that in a way where she paused and to let it marinate a bit before she dropped another bombshell.  She told Jaimie that Aerys II Targaryen had a thing for Joanna Lannister and that he wanted to bed her if they still could practice the old ways when the King would have the first rights. 

 

I am not trying to say that this was the slam dunk reason as to why Jamie and Cersei belongs to Aerys II Targaryen but Genna Lannister was around that time and she probably had a very good reason as to why she revealed some of this information to jamie. Maybe because Tywin,the Mad King and Joanna Lannister are all dead. Who knows.  But, Based on these pieces of information I have given  to you, I strongly believe that Jamie and Cersei are children of the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen and not Tyrion.

 

I may get a lot of flack from this reply but I am only basing this on what was written in the books so far.  I hope to hear some of your thoughts on my reply.

If you read World of Ice and Fire, you would see that GRRM pretty much closed off the possibility that the twins are children of Aerys (Joanna apparently was on CR at that time), while he really opened the door for Tyrion as son of Aerys (by placing Joanna at KL in the year prior to Tyrion's birth). The evidence for AJT is fairly comprehensive -- don't try to pick them apart one by one. Ask yourself why GRRM would put in all these assorted clues if they mean nothing?

[purple-eyes]

If you read World of Ice and Fire, you would see that GRRM pretty much closed off the possibility that the twins are children of Aerys (Joanna apparently was on CR at that time), while he really opened the door for Tyrion as son of Aerys (by placing Joanna at KL in the year prior to Tyrion's birth). The evidence for AJT is fairly comprehensive -- don't try to pick them apart one by one. Ask yourself why GRRM would put in all these assorted clues if they mean nothing?

 

I agree. The world book really gave a lot of hints for A+J=T. 

This is very likely to be true. 

[Attitude]

If you read World of Ice and Fire, you would see that GRRM pretty much closed off the possibility that the twins are children of Aerys (Joanna apparently was on CR at that time), while he really opened the door for Tyrion as son of Aerys (by placing Joanna at KL in the year prior to Tyrion's birth). The evidence for AJT is fairly comprehensive -- don't try to pick them apart one by one. Ask yourself why GRRM would put in all these assorted clues if they mean nothing?

 

I agree that awoiaf made A+J=J+C pretty much impossible, and it supports A+J=T, but still doesn't prove anything.

 

I agree. The world book really gave a lot of hints for A+J=T. 

This is very likely to be true. 

 

It gave 'some' hints, not a lot. And it's still not very likely. 

[King Jaime Lannister]

Good post Unmasked Lurker (creepy fucking name)

 

My personal opinion is that Tyrion IS probably the bastard of Tywin, or it will never be resolved.  Martin has ABSOLUTELY thrown in all these details on purpose.  Even if only to piss us all off and make things more interesting. 

 

I just don't understand how the main arguments against it are:

"Jaime is Cersei seems better to me."    This is no way has anything to do with Tyrion.  These two theories are in no way mutually exclusive.  

 

"Too many secret identities."                   Seriously?  Do you know what series you are reading?  Identity is one of the main themes!  It is a Song of Ice and FIRE.  Why wouldn't there be a couple secret targs (fire) in the story? 

 

Time-line crap.  Tywin was the hand to Aerys.  The King would have been around Joanna a million times.  

 

"Tyrion is too much like Tywin.  That irony is too good.  It would be BAD WRITING"  

     Seriously?  Bad writing?   To this I say that Jon believes he is Ned's son.  Most of us think otherwise. So work with me.  Jon constantly thinks of Ned when making important decisions and demonstrating traits of leadership.  Ned raised Jon, and thus taught him many things.  He "rubbed off" on Jon.  Why would it be different with Tywin and Tyrion.  Many of Tywin's effective traits "rubbed off" on Tyrion.  If you want to go the genetic route, both Jon and Tyrion have the Stark and Lannister blood on their mother's side. 

 

I just don't understand how so many people angrily dismiss the idea that Tyrion is a Targ bastard.  I think it is up there with (f)Aegon or the Pink letter, as a mystery created by Martin for us to puzzle out.  

[King Jaime Lannister]

sorry double post

[purple-eyes]

 

I agree that awoiaf made A+J=J+C pretty much impossible, and it supports A+J=T, but still doesn't prove anything.

 

 

It gave 'some' hints, not a lot. And it's still not very likely. 

 

Ok, Maybe not a lot, just quite a few. 

But it looks quite standing out and I am sold on this honestly. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

I agree that awoiaf made A+J=J+C pretty much impossible, and it supports A+J=T, but still doesn't prove anything.

 

 

It gave 'some' hints, not a lot. And it's still not very likely. 

Of course it does not "prove" anything. GRRM writes this mystery in a way that there is no possible way to "prove it" prior to the big reveal. But this is literature -- not a court of law - so I am not trying to prove anything. I merely am trying to demonstrate that the clues are overwhelmingly in support of A+J=T, and GRRM seems to be laying down the groundwork for such a reveal. But just because I cannot see where else he might be going with these clues does not make me right. But the hints are much more than "not a lot". Go back to the OP. I list quite a few clues -- so I don't know on what basis you think this reveal is not very likely.

 

Good post Unmasked Lurker (creepy fucking name)

 

My personal opinion is that Tyrion IS probably the bastard of Tywin, or it will never be resolved.  Martin has ABSOLUTELY thrown in all these details on purpose.  Even if only to piss us all off and make things more interesting. 

 

I just don't understand how the main arguments against it are:

"Jaime is Cersei seems better to me."    This is no way has anything to do with Tyrion.  These two theories are in no way mutually exclusive.  

 

"Too many secret identities."                   Seriously?  Do you know what series you are reading?  Identity is one of the main themes!  It is a Song of Ice and FIRE.  Why wouldn't there be a couple secret targs (fire) in the story? 

 

Time-line crap.  Tywin was the hand to Aerys.  The King would have been around Joanna a million times.  

 

"Tyrion is too much like Tywin.  That irony is too good.  It would be BAD WRITING"  

     Seriously?  Bad writing?   To this I say that Jon believes he is Ned's son.  Most of us think otherwise. So work with me.  Jon constantly thinks of Ned when making important decisions and demonstrating traits of leadership.  Ned raised Jon, and thus taught him many things.  He "rubbed off" on Jon.  Why would it be different with Tywin and Tyrion.  Many of Tywin's effective traits "rubbed off" on Tyrion.  If you want to go the genetic route, both Jon and Tyrion have the Stark and Lannister blood on their mother's side. 

 

I just don't understand how so many people angrily dismiss the idea that Tyrion is a Targ bastard.  I think it is up there with (f)Aegon or the Pink letter, as a mystery created by Martin for us to puzzle out.  

 

As to my screen name, I lurked on the boards without registering for years. When I finally decided to register, I considered that I was "unmasking" myself as a former "lurker" on the boards -- hence the name. If it also comes off as creepy -- so much the better.

 

As to the rest of your post, I basically agree. But here is the difference between AJT and the rest of the mysteries. We know that the identity of Jon's mother is not revealed. We know that not everyone accepts that Aegon is real. We know that the Pink Letter, on its face, appears to have potentially been written by someone other than Ramsey. Virtually every reader knows that these issues are, in some sense, a mystery. Tyrion is different -- he is not presented as a mystery -- he is presented as the son of Tywin. Without looking at all of these clues, there simply is no reason for a reader to question this issue. I think 99% of readers assume Tyrion is the son of Aerys and don't even know there is a question about his parentage (maybe not quite 99%, but a high percentage).

 

But that is why these clues are so persuasive to me. They don't work as red herrings because no one ever speculates that Tyrion might not be the son of Aerys -- other than Tywin, but almost everyone writes those statement off as spite and not statements of fact. So why slip in so many clues to a mystery that almost no one realizes is a mystery at all -- unless the clues really are clues that Tywin is not really the father of Tyrion but rather Aerys is instead. I keep wracking my brain for an alternative reason to slip in all of these clues -- and I come up empty.

[King Jaime Lannister]

Yeah I see what you mean about those other issues being presented by Martin in text.  
I think where we agree is Martin has slipped in A TON of clues.  I heard of this theory after my first re-ready.  Now I am on another read and I see it everywhere. 

[Attitude]

Of course it does not "prove" anything. GRRM writes this mystery in a way that there is no possible way to "prove it" prior to the big reveal. But this is literature -- not a court of law - so I am not trying to prove anything. I merely am trying to demonstrate that the clues are overwhelmingly in support of A+J=T, and GRRM seems to be laying down the groundwork for such a reveal. But just because I cannot see where else he might be going with these clues does not make me right. But the hints are much more than "not a lot". Go back to the OP. I list quite a few clues -- so I don't know on what basis you think this reveal is not very likely.
 
 
As to my screen name, I lurked on the boards without registering for years. When I finally decided to register, I considered that I was "unmasking" myself as a former "lurker" on the boards -- hence the name. If it also comes off as creepy -- so much the better.
 
As to the rest of your post, I basically agree. But here is the difference between AJT and the rest of the mysteries. We know that the identity of Jon's mother is not revealed. We know that not everyone accepts that Aegon is real. We know that the Pink Letter, on its face, appears to have potentially been written by someone other than Ramsey. Virtually every reader knows that these issues are, in some sense, a mystery. Tyrion is different -- he is not presented as a mystery -- he is presented as the son of Tywin. Without looking at all of these clues, there simply is no reason for a reader to question this issue. I think 99% of readers assume Tyrion is the son of Aerys and don't even know there is a question about his parentage (maybe not quite 99%, but a high percentage).
 
But that is why these clues are so persuasive to me. They don't work as red herrings because no one ever speculates that Tyrion might not be the son of Aerys -- other than Tywin, but almost everyone writes those statement off as spite and not statements of fact. So why slip in so many clues to a mystery that almost no one realizes is a mystery at all -- unless the clues really are clues that Tywin is not really the father of Tyrion but rather Aerys is instead. I keep wracking my brain for an alternative reason to slip in all of these clues -- and I come up empty.

I just dont see it that way. Just because there is info that points to something and nothing else makes sense, doesn't make ot true. Not EVERY sentene is a reference. A lot of the quotes could've been random and not related at all even if its true

[UnmaskedLurker]

I just dont see it that way. Just because there is info that points to something and nothing else makes sense, doesn't make ot true. Not EVERY sentene is a reference. A lot of the quotes could've been random and not related at all even if its true

Of course the info pointing a certain direction does not guarantee that direction is the correct conclusion. I have admitted this point over and over again. Prior to WOIAF, I considered that the support and textual clues could have been random. Human beings are prone to find order out of chaos. So I was quite nervous that what I saw as clues were completely unintentional as clues and thus might point to nothing other than GRRM writing stuff for no reason other than "world building" and others saw clues hidden within. But then WOIAF came out. Prior to WOIAF, one of the main arguments I heard against AJT was that apparently Joanna was nowhere near Aerys at the time that Tyrion was conceived -- Joanna was at CR and Aerys at KL. But then GRRM goes out of his way to point out that Joanna was at KL in the year prior to the birth of Tyrion. And GRRM gives a lot of other information suggesting a sexual relationship between Joanna and Aerys. At that point, I no longer considered it plausible that readers were seeing clues that were not really clues at all.

 

So what are the remaining realistic possibilities if AJT is not correct. Can these clues be a red herring? I don't think so. The clues are never stated explicitly as anyone speculating Aerys as Tyrion's father. No one ever states this out loud or seems to think it. A red herring needs to be laid out as an explicit answer to a mystery to make the real answer less obvious. But no one ever states this theory. And even if they did, it would be a red herring for what? What would the "real" mystery be? It just does not work as a red herring.

 

So if it is not just random world building that people turned into clues and if it is not a red herring, what else can it be? Is GRRM just "punking" the small number of fans who would read about these clues and come to this conclusion just to have it not happen? So few people even know about AJT, let alone accept it as a theory, what is the point? Why did GRRM add all these clues -- pile on significantly in WOIAF, if the theory is not true? I have yet to hear a plausible answer to that question.

[oursisthefury69]

I think this is more of wishful thinking on the part of the readers

it is true that tyrion has the pale hair and mismatched eyes but I think he is the true son or Tywin and Joanna

I think Tyrion is much more like Tywin that Cersei or Jaime he has the same brain for politics can be ruthless towards his enemies

I feel it is a complex relationship of father and son one that turns tragic over time

when Tywin says you're no son of mine it is right before he dies when tyrion shoots him with a arrow I doubt Tywin saying that while dying is a clear indicator of him not being his son I mean he was probably mad about dying and I think tyrion replies that unfortunately he is

Tywin hates Tyrion for killing his beloved Joanna for being a dwarf and for his wild antics which he thinks sullies the name of house lannister though I would say murdering little children and telling people to rape women would be much worse but clearly not in Tywin mind

Lot of "I think" and "I feel" in this post vs what you've read.

 

 

I agree that awoiaf made A+J=J+C pretty much impossible, and it supports A+J=T, but still doesn't prove anything.

 

 

It gave 'some' hints, not a lot. And it's still not very likely. 

"Yea i agree that the worldbook deviates from the rest of itself just for the sake of supporting Tyrion being Aerys son, but it doesn't prove anything." Like ok lol if your going to put the onus of irrefutable proof on the opposite side then we're gona have to wait for GRRM to just put a lil side note in the next book stating it outright to satisfy you.  Literally is = to going into the R+L=J thread and being like "yea theres evidence that supports it, but that doesnt prove anything.  Like the only reason you have a leg to stand on is because the author takes decades between books and isn't elementary enough to spell it all out for you 

[Attitude]

Of course the info pointing a certain direction does not guarantee that direction is the correct conclusion. I have admitted this point over and over again. Prior to WOIAF, I considered that the support and textual clues could have been random. Human beings are prone to find order out of chaos. So I was quite nervous that what I saw as clues were completely unintentional as clues and thus might point to nothing other than GRRM writing stuff for no reason other than "world building" and others saw clues hidden within. But then WOIAF came out. Prior to WOIAF, one of the main arguments I heard against AJT was that apparently Joanna was nowhere near Aerys at the time that Tyrion was conceived -- Joanna was at CR and Aerys at KL. But then GRRM goes out of his way to point out that Joanna was at KL in the year prior to the birth of Tyrion. And GRRM gives a lot of other information suggesting a sexual relationship between Joanna and Aerys. At that point, I no longer considered it plausible that readers were seeing clues that were not really clues at all.
 
So what are the remaining realistic possibilities if AJT is not correct. Can these clues be a red herring? I don't think so. The clues are never stated explicitly as anyone speculating Aerys as Tyrion's father. No one ever states this out loud or seems to think it. A red herring needs to be laid out as an explicit answer to a mystery to make the real answer less obvious. But no one ever states this theory. And even if they did, it would be a red herring for what? What would the "real" mystery be? It just does not work as a red herring.
 
So if it is not just random world building that people turned into clues and if it is not a red herring, what else can it be? Is GRRM just "punking" the small number of fans who would read about these clues and come to this conclusion just to have it not happen? So few people even know about AJT, let alone accept it as a theory, what is the point? Why did GRRM add all these clues -- pile on significantly in WOIAF, if the theory is not true? I have yet to hear a plausible answer to that question.

So you take the mere sentence stating: joanne was/might have been around aerys during tyrions conceiving as a statement for all other info to suddenly be clues? Well I personally consider that odd, but that's your choice.

I personally do not believe in A+J=T because of two reasons basicly:

1. R+L=J Has way more support and is very likely to be true. Having a second hidden Targ doesn't make sense considering GRRMs writing style (at least that's how I see it)

2. What does A+J=T bring to the story? His epic 'revenge' (or w/e you want to call it, cant think of a better english word atm) on Tywin wouldn't make a lot off sense. Just like the possible reveal that Tywin already was poisoned by Oberyn (not proven, but very likely) would screw that totally up. His entire storyarc was about struggeling with his fathers approval (I should say: lack of approval). Tywin NOT being his father would screw that entire storyline over. And what does it bring: nothing much at this point.. maybe being the third head of the dragon and becoming King in the end.. but was does that mean? The real endgame will be about the Others, at least thats how I see it.

But that's just my opinion. Very little evidence is there to actually support it, and most seems circumstantional to me. But you are free to think differently and I hope you succeed in convincing me ;)

[oursisthefury69]

Of course the info pointing a certain direction does not guarantee that direction is the correct conclusion. I have admitted this point over and over again. Prior to WOIAF, I considered that the support and textual clues could have been random. Human beings are prone to find order out of chaos. So I was quite nervous that what I saw as clues were completely unintentional as clues and thus might point to nothing other than GRRM writing stuff for no reason other than "world building" and others saw clues hidden within. But then WOIAF came out. Prior to WOIAF, one of the main arguments I heard against AJT was that apparently Joanna was nowhere near Aerys at the time that Tyrion was conceived -- Joanna was at CR and Aerys at KL. But then GRRM goes out of his way to point out that Joanna was at KL in the year prior to the birth of Tyrion. And GRRM gives a lot of other information suggesting a sexual relationship between Joanna and Aerys. At that point, I no longer considered it plausible that readers were seeing clues that were not really clues at all.

 

So what are the remaining realistic possibilities if AJT is not correct. Can these clues be a red herring? I don't think so. The clues are never stated explicitly as anyone speculating Aerys as Tyrion's father. No one ever states this out loud or seems to think it. A red herring needs to be laid out as an explicit answer to a mystery to make the real answer less obvious. But no one ever states this theory. And even if they did, it would be a red herring for what? What would the "real" mystery be? It just does not work as a red herring.

 

So if it is not just random world building that people turned into clues and if it is not a red herring, what else can it be? Is GRRM just "punking" the small number of fans who would read about these clues and come to this conclusion just to have it not happen? So few people even know about AJT, let alone accept it as a theory, what is the point? Why did GRRM add all these clues -- pile on significantly in WOIAF, if the theory is not true? I have yet to hear a plausible answer to that question.

I mean first and less importantly good job with your whole red herring back and forth, Im beyond certain the great majority of people don't know that word before they come on these forums, and then immediately begin misusing it lol, I've never seen a term so consistently misused and mis-defined.

 

To the bold, don't you start to feel that's one of the main reasons he came out with the book? Its like the entire context/path of the book is diverted for the sake of spending a lot of time discussing the Aerys/Tywin relationship and time period, and not even in relation to the downfall of the Targ dynasty as much as it is just part of the Casterly Rock/Westerlands sections 

[Lord Varys]

Hidden Targaryens are all over the place. People forget that Maester Aemon being a Targaryen actually came as a surprise during the first reading of AGoT. And then there come Aegon and Bloodraven as the three-eyed crow in ADwD. Jon Snow alone would already be only part of theme, not the only one.

[Attitude]

Lot of "I think" and "I feel" in this post vs what you've read.
 
"Yea i agree that the worldbook deviates from the rest of itself just for the sake of supporting Tyrion being Aerys son, but it doesn't prove anything." Like ok lol if your going to put the onus of irrefutable proof on the opposite side then we're gona have to wait for GRRM to just put a lil side note in the next book stating it outright to satisfy you.  Literally is = to going into the R+L=J thread and being like "yea theres evidence that supports it, but that doesnt prove anything.  Like the only reason you have a leg to stand on is because the author takes decades between books and isn't elementary enough to spell it all out for you 

The evidence that is there isn't enoug for me to believe it. And GRRM probably will never say in the books if it's true or not, maybe outside of it. However, we are SURE that we will learn Jons parentage. Which makes me wonder: does it even matter who Tyrions father is? Probably not..

[purple-eyes]

Hidden Targaryens are all over the place. People forget that Maester Aemon being a Targaryen actually came as a surprise during the first reading of AGoT. And then there come Aegon and Bloodraven as the three-eyed crow in ADwD. Jon Snow alone would already be only part of theme, not the only one.

 

yes, literally everywhere. Dark star. Tyrion. Jon. Aemon. Blood raven. fake Aegon. 

[Attitude]

Hidden Targaryens are all over the place. People forget that Maester Aemon being a Targaryen actually came as a surprise during the first reading of AGoT. And then there come Aegon and Bloodraven as the three-eyed crow in ADwD. Jon Snow alone would already be only part of theme, not the only one.

Sorry for double post.. this sucks on mobile phone..

Not knowing who somebody really is besides his first name, not knowing someone is still alive (because of age and because of baby switch) is different from stating: this guy is a son of ned and a ??? and later on revealing he is a targ. Doing it with tyrion would be a lot more similar.