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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.5

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Oh, was wondering if that was a dig at the "y'all" comment. Non-southerners just don't get it. :P

My mother was from Birmingham and my father from New Jersey. Maybe that's why I accept A+J=T. I identify with the person divided within himself.

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I was meaning his green eye is showing his kindness because in the time he was kind and caring he was referred to as a lannister and treated as one. He was kind because he had an identity.

The black one doesn't have an origin. It represents his evil side. We've seen his evil side come to light after A storm of swords. His evil side came to light when he no longer had a family or an identity to hide behind. He became spiteful and cruel.

His green eye represents the kindness he showed when he was referred to as a lannister (lannisters and green eyes).

His black eye when he no longer had any family and become a corpse of who he was. If that makes any sense. Tyrion isn't purely good or purely evil. He's a both and he struggles with finding out what one he is, good or bad (even in ADWD).

[...]

It's hard for me to look at the book this way in general, only because I don't see any of the characters' struggling between good and evil. I'm not a Christian so I don't habitually apply that model to anything (I'm not assuming you are a Christian, btw). Mainly I see characters in the book pursuing self-interest in conflicted ways.

Tyrion is selfish and bitter throughout the book; his self-pity increases after killing Tywin, perhaps. I don't think of it as evil, personally. I would point out that as Hand, when he is definitely serving his family, is when he is most violent in the books - he has people killed, in some cases out of spite, and he conceives the chain-and-wildfire defensive ploy, which is a pretty sick idea (although effective!). Then, after he severs from his family, we see him saving Aegon from the stone man, and helping Penny, and even Jorah. I think he's too complex for a simple light-vs-dark analysis.

And again, what would be the 'dark' in such an analysis? You say the black eye has no origin - it's his evil side. I don't think that is consistent with George. If it were Tolkien, you'd be absolutely right. But this is George.

[..]

It would though. He's becoming the monster everyone thought he was. What his father (in this sense tywin) thought he was.

Killing him was a major thing. It served as a detachment to his previous self, and continues to do so because he's constantly reminded of his actions and the treatment he received.

If he did find out Aerys was his dad (in this scenario) it would cancel this out. Tywin's previous wrong doings would be wiped clean, and Tyrion's wrong doings as well. There's no struggling with his good and bad side, it's just "your free from all your crimes"

I agree and disagree. Killing Tywin is certainly a major thing for him to do, and that's why I don't see it diminishing in importance if he finds out he had a different biological father. The psychic wound of killing his father (certainly that's what he believed at the time) goes too deep to be cancelled out by mere genealogy. I agree that he detached himself from his former life, irrevocably. Personally I look forward to Tyrion having a new journey - it's a rebirth of sorts, and he is forced into unfamiliar territory (internally and externally) which is always good reading in my opinion.

Where people seem to disagree most viscerally is whether this ruins his story with Tywin. I don't see how it could, honestly! There's a lot of back-and-forth on this upthread, and it gets personal sometimes. It makes me wonder whether people are reacting based on their own lives; fallout from our relationships with our fathers. We all question whether we received our father's love, whether we are legitimate in their eyes. That's testimony to the brilliance of the writing in my opinion.

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Moqorro has been brought up in the thread, not by me, though. Assuming that this man is talking the truth or saying everything he knows is just stupid - especially since we know he did keep quite a lot of his knowledge from Tyrion. Did he say he'd join Victarion Greyjoy and bring him to Meereen? No, he did not. This does not only refer to Tyrion-related stuff - it refers to everything Moqorro says or does, especially later when he is with Victarion.

If black hair doesn't prevail usually with Baratheons when they marry common blondes why the hell are then all known Baratheons black-haired? And all of Robert's bastards regardless of what colour the hair of their mothers were? Lannister genes don't protect against that, Gowen Baratheon and Tya Lannister are proof of that.

Oh, and it is an unconfirmed rumour that Orys Baratheon was Aegon's half-brother. The main Baratheon line as a confirmed drop of Targaryen blood through Alyssa Velaryon, though. And presumably through those matches Renly cites in ACoK.

I figured that they meant the marriage of Jocelyn to Aemon, and perhaps even Alyssa to Robar.. The Aemon/daughter of Borros match might also have happened, TPATQ did not mention anything past Aemond's plan to go betroth himself, and Aegon II had planned to marry another girl (or the same, who knows)..

Since those are the matches that seem to fit the timeframe Renly was talking about, I assumed those (the Jocelyn/Aemon match foremost) was meant,.

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Renly speaks 'of second sons and elder daughters' - no idea which house would have provided what, but he begins speaking about the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen so my guess is that Baratheon second sons married elder Targaryen daughters. But this was never the case in the history we know of.



It is supposed to have happened 'a hundred years past'.



I think George should consider rewriting this whole thing and have Renly mention his grandmother, Princess Rhaelle, there. 'Second sons' makes no sense whatsoever from a dynastic viewpoint as those second son Baratheons would only be important for the Baratheon claim to the Iron Throne if the first sons with no Targaryen blood did not continue the line. 'Elder daughters' is wrong, too, as Rhaelle was Egg's youngest daughter.



Considering Renly's general attitude he may not have a clear picture of his family's marriages in the second and first century, but he should have been very aware of the fact that a daughter of Aegon V was his paternal grandmother. You usually know if you great-grandfather was a king.



Baratheon marriages into House Targaryen - Jocelyn, Borros' daughter(s) - wouldn't be relevant for the Baratheon claim, either, as they would only give the Targaryens a claim to Storm's End, not the other way around. Not to mention that neither Aegon II nor Aemond ever fathered any legitimate children on their Baratheon brides. If we take the MUSH into account it does not seem as if Aemond ever married his Baratheon girl, presumably because this was supposed to happen after Aegon's throne was secured/Borros had make good on his word and led his vassals into battle against the Blacks (which he only did after Aemond's death). Borros' eldest daughter ends up with the silent sisters, and assume she is the one who was betrothed to Aemond as well as to Aegon II. If she was in KL when Aegon II was killed and Aegon III crowned the new regime would have arrested her just as they arrested Queen Dowager Alicent.


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Hi I was thinking about the tywin/aerys relationship and it just makes me think that maybe all tywin's children are his but he was the one who was a targ bastard...in the world of ice and fire the two are described as very close friends (like brothers) who become rivals, tywin pretty much rules the kingdom as hand...payne loses his tongue for saying so and aerys is preoccupied with bastards thinking many of his children are "no bastard may sit the iron throne"

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No, it's dog like behaviour.

Like I said if your trying to fit this in with A+J=T argument your taking some big stretches.

He sees tyrion as a man in the vision. Not a dragon.

The dragons old are aemon and bloodraven. Young, true, bright, dark probably refer to aegon and dany.

Don't see how Tyrion fits into this.

If anything Moqorro said pertains to fAegon it is 'False', definitely not 'true' or 'bright'.

Of course that is only if you understand about 'The Mummer's Dragon'

He won't become a dragon rider. The white dragon with the red veins foreshadowed jon becoming a dragonrider.

And once again the lengths people are going to make this work. Should we just doubt everything everyone says? Should we just discard whats written in the books so it can fit our own beliefs?

I don't know if moqorro is sincere. We currently know little about moqorro. We don't know if he knew about the slavers or tyrion being enslaved.

And if he did doesn't that adds up with the vision he saw, tyrion being a danger to dragons. No?

How does a white dragon with red veins foreshadow anything? Because Ghost is white with red eyes? That is not foreshadowing, those are just colors. Or do you also think Ser Shadrich will ride Viserion because his sigil is a white mouse with red eyes?

Ugh these tyrion threads are so boring. Don't mean to be rude but it's so exasperating and frustrating reading these pro arguments. None of them have decent logic behind them.

That is such a weird thing to say on a thread you are actively posting on.......

Plus it's the fact that the lannisters share the blood of a house founded by very strong valyrian blood. And married into the same house again who married into another valyrian house that shared targaryen blood.

Once again your not reading enough into the story. Instead your taking the cheap, cliche route.

What is 'very strong Valyrian blood'?

Can you name the marriages yo'u're talking about here in the bolded?

Tyrion is like the deuteragonist of a classical play. The deuteragonist would bounce between the protagonist, Daenerys in second of three acts of ASOIAF, the Second Dance of the Dragons (the first was the War of the Five Kings and the final act will be the War for the Dawn), and the antagonist, Aegon, further suggesting that old and young are House Targaryen and House Blackfyre, true and false are Daenerys Daughter of Aerys and Aegon son of Rhaegar, and bright and dark are the red dragon and the black dragon.

Tyrion's eyes may allude to the upcoming Dance between the new blacks, who will back Daenerys, who rides Drogon, and the new greens, who will back Aegon, who will ride Rhaegal.

Sansa III, Storm 28

Wow!! Excellent post :) Love the idea in the bolded, as I was catching up on the thread I came to the same conclusion :cheers:

Colombus, Ga huh ? Yeah I'm from Athens, but live in NYC now. The accent keeps me grounded :)

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Baratheon marriages into House Targaryen - Jocelyn, Borros' daughter(s) - wouldn't be relevant for the Baratheon claim, either, as they would only give the Targaryens a claim to Storm's End, not the other way around. Not to mention that neither Aegon II nor Aemond ever fathered any legitimate children on their Baratheon brides. If we take the MUSH into account it does not seem as if Aemond ever married his Baratheon girl, presumably because this was supposed to happen after Aegon's throne was secured/Borros had make good on his word and led his vassals into battle against the Blacks (which he only did after Aemond's death). Borros' eldest daughter ends up with the silent sisters, and assume she is the one who was betrothed to Aemond as well as to Aegon II. If she was in KL when Aegon II was killed and Aegon III crowned the new regime would have arrested her just as they arrested Queen Dowager Alicent.

They are relevant for the purposes of riding dragons.

One of the primary reasons A+J=T is credible is that there needs to be more than just the one dragon rider so there have to be more Targs. So people look for secret Targs. But the Baratheon hook up means that any of Robert's children can ride dragons. But not Cersei's.

Gendry can return as a dragon rider instead of Tyrion. So can any other of his children who survived Cersei. The twincest thing dooms the country in a whole new way. Unless of course Tywin is infertile and A+J=C+J+T.

The Baratheon hookup takes away the need for Tyrion to be a secret targ but also makes it more likely because it eliminates the need for Jon to be one. Jon can be Robert's legitimate son and still ride dragons.

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...so...... what's up guys?


Tyrion is all we have left now :(


Hopefully Dany wont have a problem with a dwarf/half-brother boyfriend to continue the Targaryen line.



Cuz I dont see her doing it with a wolf anytime soon :bawl: :crying: :bawl: :crying: :crying:


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Actually wasn't there a theory a while back about Dany getting knocked up by Tyrion and dying in childbirth?


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...so...... what's up guys?

Tyrion is all we have left now :(

Hopefully Dany wont have a problem with a dwarf/half-brother boyfriend to continue the Targaryen line.

Cuz I dont see her doing it with a wolf anytime soon :bawl: :crying: :bawl: :crying: :crying:

Tyrion and Dany? That would just be... creepy on so many levels.

"In the dark, my sellsword is as big as them all." :P

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Actually wasn't there a theory a while back about Dany getting knocked up by Tyrion and dying in childbirth?

ohhh never read that one, pls share if you find it :)

It can be renamed "Unlikely Voice of Reason"

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No, it's dog like behaviour.

Like I said if your trying to fit this in with A+J=T argument your taking some big stretches.

He sees tyrion as a man in the vision. Not a dragon.

The dragons old are aemon and bloodraven. Young, true, bright, dark probably refer to aegon and dany.

Don't see how Tyrion fits into this.

He sees Tyrion because he knows who Tyrion is. If he knew who the 6 other Dragons were he would name them as well.

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

He even says AND YOU. Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Daenerys) and false (fAegon), bright (Varys) and Dark (Ilryio and the Blackfyres), and you (Tyrion)

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ohhh never read that one, pls share if you find it :)

It can be renamed "Unlikely Voice of Reason"

I don't think there was a thread discussing it. I think that it was put forth by Fire Eater in one of the Moments of Foreshadowing threads.

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He sees Tyrion because he knows who Tyrion is. If he knew who the 6 other Dragons were he would name them as well.

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

He even says AND YOU. Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Daenerys) and false (fAegon), bright (Varys) and Dark (Ilryio and the Blackfyres), and you (Tyrion)

That's the thing though.. wouldn't he see them either ar dragons or as humans? The fact that he is able to identify Tyrion would then imply he saw Tyrion as a human, while he appears to have seen dragons for all the others.

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...so...... what's up guys?

Tyrion is all we have left now :(

Hopefully Dany wont have a problem with a dwarf/half-brother boyfriend to continue the Targaryen line.

Cuz I dont see her doing it with a wolf anytime soon :bawl: :crying: :bawl: :crying: :crying:

Tyrion can continue the line if he indeed is Aerys' son - with Sansa. If Dany is really infertile, or if she is otherwise unavailable (for example, if she dies in the final fights against the Others), that's a possible outcome. Especially taking into account that a resurrected Jon is unlikely to be fertile himself (could Melisandre get a normal child? I doubt it).

A surprising move in the last ep was that Varys joined Tyrion in Meereen. It looks like Tyrion takes over Barristan's position as governor of the city (conveniently close to the dragons) and Varys can take over those parts of Barristan that would require knowledge of Aerys' past.

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^^ I am still freaked out from Sunday, idk when it will wear off :(

Nothing really happened Sunday that was all that different than the books.

I will summarize in a spoiler box so as not to offend those who don't want us mentioning events from the show on this forum (a peculiar and annoying rule):

Jon is stabbed in both. The likelihood and manner of him being saved in the next season/book is the same in the show as it is at the end of DwD. Theon and the "bride" (Sansa rather than fake Arya) escape from Winterfell (cutting out them getting to Stanis's camp in the show but the basic thrust of that story line seems somewhat consistent once one replaces fake Arya with Sansa -- which of course, means Sansa is doing different stuff on the show than the books). Arya goes blind (cuts off before she regains sight -- but likely will happen in S6).Dany gets to Dothraki Sea (cuts off before being taken to the Dothraki capital but likely to happen in S6). Stannis may be dead in battle (from Briene rather than Boltons but same threat to Stannis in a larger sense). One difference is Myrcella's fate -- but Maggy the Frog's prophecy has told the readers long ago of her eventual fate one way or the other. Cersei's story arc basically went more or less the same way. I don't really see major differences in the overall story arcs.

So what is really the cause of the freak-out?

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That's the thing though.. wouldn't he see them either ar dragons or as humans? The fact that he is able to identify Tyrion would then imply he saw Tyrion as a human, while he appears to have seen dragons for all the others.

And there we go again with the "And". You can't have it one way and not the other. You know which I speak about.

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