Chinoiserie Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm new to all of the A+J=T, but the Moqorro quote re: tyrion with a big shadow, snarling, always seemed to me to refer to a lion...Why excactly? Dragons are bigger than lions and I think dragons are even refered as snarling in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 Why excactly? Dragons are bigger than lions and I think dragons are even refered as snarling in the books. For whatever it is worth, I did a search of the word "snarl" in Search of Ice and Fire for the 5 main books. It comes up 98 times, but not always in reference to the sound of an animal. When it does reference th sound of an animal, it is a reference to dogs (or hounds), wolves (or direwolves) or shadowcats. I was not able to find one that was a reference to dragons. I don't think that proves anything, of course. The quote is intentionally ambiguous. GRRM would not want readers to immediately assume that Tyrion is being referred to as a dragon -- that would give away too much. The point is that it serves a potential foreshadowing that Tyrion is a dragon (or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm new to all of the A+J=T, but the Moqorro quote re: tyrion with a big shadow, snarling, always seemed to me to refer to a lion... The first part of that quote: "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you." That to me sounds like he just called Tyrion a Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Yes that is exactly what it sounds like to me as well.^^^^ If he was saying tyrion is not a dragon the sentence would have gone like this; "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And then there's you, a snarling lion in the midst of it all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 For whatever it is worth, I did a search of the word "snarl" in Search of Ice and Fire for the 5 main books. It comes up 98 times, but not always in reference to the sound of an animal. When it does reference th sound of an animal, it is a reference to dogs (or hounds), wolves (or direwolves) or shadowcats. I was not able to find one that was a reference to dragons. I don't think that proves anything, of course. The quote is intentionally ambiguous. GRRM would not want readers to immediately assume that Tyrion is being referred to as a dragon -- that would give away too much. The point is that it serves a potential foreshadowing that Tyrion is a dragon (or not). I did the same search once and came up with the same blank... except this: "No one commands the dragon," Viserys snarled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 I did the same search once and came up with the same blank... except this: "No one commands the dragon," Viserys snarled. Good catch -- but of course, Viserys is not a dragon except in the most loosest sense if one considers all Targs to be dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Good catch -- but of course, Viserys is not a dragon except in the most loosest sense if one considers all Targs to be dragons. I would consider all Targaryens dragons, maybe some are not as worthy as the rest but they are considered dragons. Even random Targaryen bastards are referred to as Dragonseed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 When and if GRRM explicitly states A+J=C+J is not possible, I am of the opinion that they are Aerys children not Tywin's. On that day I apologize profusely to all who I've offended with my faulty knowledge until then I'll hold my belief. Well that's super convenient for you as GRRM's intellect is never going to deteriorate to the point where he feels the need to explicitly state for the record that they aren't Aerys; But clearly based on your whole Red herring back and forth you could see that being a possibility, because the things that're obvious to you are clearly based off the perspective of a forum lurker and not a book reader. I'm new to all of the A+J=T, but the Moqorro quote re: tyrion with a big shadow, snarling, always seemed to me to refer to a lion... If you are really new to the concept then forgive me calling out the Moqorro quote. (And again this is one of the many ways this particular topic is stagnated and why i liked the way the OP was worded from what i read of it, as people will go back and forth on one piece of Tyrion evidence as if its the turning point of the theory and not just one of a few dozen small clues that when seen in totality is tough to dispute. Nobody against the theory can ever come up with a reason for why there'd be so many subtle implications for no reason at all.) I cant imagine how it struck you as lion symbolism, as its not like the dragons were being referred to indirectly, it said dragons, but then its suppose to imply lion? I dont see the sense in that. And how is Tyrion casting a large shadow in the context of all these other dragons lurking around him? Even if he is seen as a literal lion and they literal dragons, or he's like mounted a lion that still doesnt equate to casting a large shadow compared to the other dragons. Shadows/shadow casting is constantly associated with dragons throughout the books. He's casting a large shadow as he's eventually going to mount and ride a dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 Well that's super convenient for you as GRRM's intellect is never going to deteriorate to the point where he feels the need to explicitly state for the record that they aren't Aerys; But clearly based on your whole Red herring back and forth you could see that being a possibility, because the things that're obvious to you are clearly based off the perspective of a forum lurker and not a book reader. If you are really new to the concept then forgive me calling out the Moqorro quote. (And again this is one of the many ways this particular topic is stagnated and why i liked the way the OP was worded from what i read of it, as people will go back and forth on one piece of Tyrion evidence as if its the turning point of the theory and not just one of a few dozen small clues that when seen in totality is tough to dispute. Nobody against the theory can ever come up with a reason for why there'd be so many subtle implications for no reason at all.) I cant imagine how it struck you as lion symbolism, as its not like the dragons were being referred to indirectly, it said dragons, but then its suppose to imply lion? I dont see the sense in that. And how is Tyrion casting a large shadow in the context of all these other dragons lurking around him? Even if he is seen as a literal lion and they literal dragons, or he's like mounted a lion that still doesnt equate to casting a large shadow compared to the other dragons. Shadows/shadow casting is constantly associated with dragons throughout the books. He's casting a large shadow as he's eventually going to mount and ride a dragon I don't recall ever seeing anyone make the point about the shadow quite the way that you have. As you might imagine, I have been over the issue of this particular vision many times and have seen it parsed to death (by myself included). But I don't think I have ever seen anyone point out that he really needs to be a dragon or on a dragon to cast the large shadow. I like it -- great analysis. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Well that's super convenient for you as GRRM's intellect is never going to deteriorate to the point where he feels the need to explicitly state for the record that they aren't Aerys; But clearly based on your whole Red herring back and forth you could see that being a possibility, because the things that're obvious to you are clearly based off the perspective of a forum lurker and not a book reader. You think to wound me, however never doubt the sincerity of my belief. I will match you quote for quote, reference for reference, paraphrase for paraphrase, tinhat for tinhat. If some of my rememberances of the top of head are less than accurate, so be it, I apologize for my faulty memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Unmasked, may I ask a question? Why does the OP in all versions as well as A+J=T aficionadoes ingore what could be considered the most obvious clue to the above? I'm speaking of Quaithe's warning. In my opinion she doubly warns Dany about Tyrion. First as "the Lion and the Griffin" then as "the Sun's son and the Mummers Dragon".Tyrion could easily be considered the "Mummer's Dragon". He is first specifically introduced to the reader in AGOT Jon 1 (I'm pretty sure no one would consider Eddard 1 as a specific intro) . What is the first impression the reader notes, Tyrion on a ledge somersaulting to the ground . What is the last impression ADWD Tyrion XI the reader notes, Tyrion's production of signing the Second Son contracts. Between those impressions there 16 of 48 Tyrion chapters in which he could be considered mumming. For instance the crab fork fight, his hearing at the Eyrie and interaction with Mord, meeting his father at Heddle's and introducing the Mountain clan leaders, Tyrion's first Council meeting, the game played on Varys, Pycelle and LF, the final day of his trial re Joffrey I could go on but I'll finish with the joust in the Fighting pit.I would that the warning makes an A+J=T argument only stronger. Only a handful of posts out of 2100+ note it, why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Unmasked, may I ask a question? Why does the OP in all versions as well as A+J=T aficionadoes ingore what could be considered the most obvious clue to the above? I'm speaking of Quaithe's warning. In my opinion she doubly warns Dany about Tyrion. First as "the Lion and the Griffin" then as "the Sun's son and the Mummers Dragon". Tyrion could easily be considered the "Mummer's Dragon". He is first specifically introduced to the reader in AGOT Jon 1 (I'm pretty sure no one would consider Eddard 1 as a specific intro) . What is the first impression the reader notes, Tyrion on a ledge somersaulting to the ground . What is the last impression ADWD Tyrion XI the reader notes, Tyrion's production of signing the Second Son contracts. Between those impressions there 16 of 48 Tyrion chapters in which he could be considered mumming. For instance the crab fork fight, his hearing at the Eyrie and interaction with Mord, meeting his father at Heddle's and introducing the Mountain clan leaders, Tyrion's first Council meeting, the game played on Varys, Pycelle and LF, the final day of his trial re Joffrey I could go on but I'll finish with the joust in the Fighting pit. I would that the warning makes an A+J=T argument only stronger. Only a handful of posts out of 2100+ note it, why is that? But that would make Tyrion the 'Mummer dragon', not the 'Mummer's dragon'. I think the mummer's dragon is Aegon, Varys being the mummer in this case. It also implies, to me at least, that the mummer's dragon is a false dragon, a mummer show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 But that would make Tyrion the 'Mummer dragon', not the 'Mummer's dragon'. I think the mummer's dragon is Aegon, Varys being the mummer in this case. It also implies, to me at least, that the mummer's dragon is a false dragon, a mummer show. Using the same logic, Tyrion could be considered along the same lines, as he is a creature of Varys and Illyrio at this point in the books, isn't he? Who got him out of KL? Who sent him on the trip down the Rhoyne? Who was pulling his strings until kidnapped by Mormount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Tyrion is neither a Lion nor a Mummer's dragon, he is all at once, he is the Sphinx, he is the Riddle : a monster, half-man (!), half-lion, with a serpent (dragon?) tail and (dragon?) wings. His face is even noseless, just like the famous Egypt statue and his mismatched eyes are those of a Chimera, another ancient creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Tyrion is neither a Lion nor a Mummer's dragon, he is all at once, he is the Sphinx, he is the Riddle : a monster, half-man (!), half-lion, with a serpent (dragon?) tail and (dragon?) wings. His face is even noseless, just like the famous Egypt statue and his mismatched eyes are those of a Chimera, another ancient creature. Well, that's interesting! If Tyrion's parentage is something Sarella knows, would it shed light on her 'game'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdo Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Using the same logic, Tyrion could be considered along the same lines, as he is a creature of Varys and Illyrio at this point in the books, isn't he? Who got him out of KL? Who sent him on the trip down the Rhoyne? Who was pulling his strings until kidnapped by Mormount? I don't think it fits - they are not representing Tyrion as a dragon to anyone, the way they have with Aegon. And he will get to Dany under his own steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 side note:Fourth episode of the new GoT season. (before the next book) Dany decides to execute Tyrion for whatever reason.Barristan steps in and say: "Stop! You don't want to be a kinslayer!"Episode ends.Just imagine the rage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I don't think it fits - they are not representing Tyrion as a dragon to anyone, the way they have with Aegon. And he will get to Dany under his own steam. Shucks, Dany should already recognize Tyrion as a mummer from viewing the dwarf joust at the fighting pit. When Tyrion is finally introduced to her as a Lannister, don't you think Dany will think of it with a view to Quaithe's warning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdo Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Shucks, Dany should already recognize Tyrion as a mummer from viewing the dwarf joust at the fighting pit. When Tyrion is finally introduced to her as a Lannister, don't you think Dany will think of it with a view to Quaithe's warning? As the Lion, probably she will. Not the Mummer's Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Tyrion is not the mummer's dragon. That is silly. Weirdo is right, he is the gargoyle, the chimera, the sphinx. fAgon is the mummer's blackfyre dragon. not the real thing, not Rhaegar's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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