UnmaskedLurker Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I won't have the time for a few days, but I just wanted to say that I'm going to respond to this in detail.. I'll even write it on a post it or something so I won't forget (if it seems like I did, feel free to remind me). A busy week or two ahead, so it might be a while.. I felt I had to respond to this, at least, because I figured I could not respond to Suzanna without responding to this post of yours, UL. :) What? Jojen killed by a white wolf? Could you quote that for me? I can't recall that part. I will be waiting with baited breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Incorrect, the dream is on Ilyrio's covered litter ride from Pentos to meet up with Griff, Tyrion is drinking the whole time. Bittersteel was of course a huge proponent of the Blackfyres, obviously, Tyrion has no idea Illyrio is involved with them, but mere days after meeting him, and days before finding out about the GC and fAegon, he is having a dream about dragons and Bittersteel (the founder of the GC). And you think that is all stupid coincidence? I would say it's willful ignorance on your part. Willful ignorance? We getting into P&P now? And how do you know Illyrio is involved with the Blackfyres because he hired GC. That doesn't make sense. His contact is Connington, Rhaegar's buddy, Aegon is Rhaegar's son the rightful heir to the Iron Throne in other words not a Blackfyre. Tyrion is not I repeat not Aerys child, in any event if he was it is an uncle's duty to support and return the rightful king to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 What? Jojen killed by a white wolf? Could you quote that for me? I can't recall that part. This is from Addicted to Snow's theory. When Jojen & Meera first came to Winterfell, after swearing their oath, Meera immediately says "Where are the direwolves? My Brother would like to see them." Little Walder replied "Best be sure that they don't see him, or else they are like to take a bite out of him!" Bran finally left the great Hall, went to bed & had a wolf dream. Bran was inside of Summer, in the Gods Wood. The Direwolves were growling @ the Reeds. Meera mentions how large they are & Jojen says they they will get much much bigger. Meera was very leery & fingering her knife blade & telling Jojen to be careful, but Jojen only said "Relax Sister, this is not the day I die." NOTE:: Jojen repeated "this is not the day I die" when confronted by Direwolves for a 2nd time in the very next Bran Chapter... When GRRM repeats something to the reader, the reader should take note... Jojen's statement, "this is not the day I die" has always struck me as rather curious. Also worth noting is that Jojen can't possibly have seen a full grown direwolf before, yet he knows that they will get much, much larger... We later learn that Jojen has Green Dreams. Jojen knows how large they will get because he has seen a fully grown direwolf in his Green Dreams. This is why Jojen says "this is not the day I die." because Jojen has seen his own death in his dreams. Jojen knows how he will die. He knows that he will be eaten by a direwolf, and he has clearly shared this information with his sister. Meera is frightened because she thinks that this might be the day that he dies, but Jojen is not frightened at all, he is confident... Why? Because he is looking at a Black Direwolf & a Grey Direwolf; and he knows that it is a white wolf that will eat him... Fast Forward to ADWDs. Jojen is depressed, & he mopes around, wondering endlessly through the caves because he has accepted his fate... This means that Jojen knows that this cave is where he will meet his end... or where he will meet a white direwolf, shall we say... I just think it cannot be a coincidence that twice when confronted by direwolves Jojen states he wont die that day, it must mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Willful ignorance? We getting into P&P now? And how do you know Illyrio is involved with the Blackfyres because he hired GC. That doesn't make sense. His contact is Connington, Rhaegar's buddy, Aegon is Rhaegar's son the rightful heir to the Iron Throne in other words not a Blackfyre. Tyrion is not I repeat not Aerys child, in any event if he was it is an uncle's duty to support and return the rightful king to the throne. idk what P&P is, but in your last two posts you have stated that AJ= CJ (which has been confirmed by Ran and everyone that it is not possible, GRRm shut the door on it during WOIAF) and that Illyrio has nothing to do with Blackfyres, so I mean it's hard to have a conversation after that, there is too much to explain before we could move forward and sorry I dont feel like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I will be waiting with baited breath. O my.. I hope I will not disappoint then :) This is from Addicted to Snow's theory. I just think it cannot be a coincidence that twice when confronted by direwolves Jojen states he wont die that day, it must mean something. Any idea on how AtS's theory incorporates this part then? The moon was a black hole in the sky. Outside the cave the world went on. Outside the cave the sun rose and set, the moon turned, the cold winds howled. Under the hill, Jojen Reed grew ever more sullen and solitary, to his sister’s distress. She would often sit with Bran beside their little fire, talking of everything and nothing, petting Summer where he slept between them, whilst her brother wandered the caverns by himself. Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave’s mouth when the day was bright. He would stand there for hours, looking out over the forest, wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same. “He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.” “He’s being brave,” said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered. “He’s being stupid,” Meera said. “I’d hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came.” Makes it sound as if whatever fate awaits Jojen, it awaits him at home.. Does the theory account for that quote? Is there a thread for this? (she asks out of fear for getting too OT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 ok TWOIAF spells out the relationship Aerys and Joanna had, the affair. How his wife kicked her out of court due to the affair. Then it shows Aerys and Joanna in the same location in the year before Tyrion's birth, and Tywin trying to resign the morning after the tourney where 'something' definitely happened betwixt A and J, what happened exactly, we dont know. But something serious enough to make Tywin try and resign. So what exactly is negated in your view? Tyrion is having a dragon dream there. Only Targaryens have those. Tywin could say many things, but for GRRm to waste the great Tywin's last words with a throw-away statement? I have proven that is not like him at all, Showing everyone who has died's last words. Every single one is meaningful. Tyrion is a dragonlord, Drogon was attracted to him, plus the significance of a POV outside of Meereen seeing Drogon. In literature things matter. Yeah I know I 'got you on the app', it couldnt be more blatantly telling us something if it spit in our faces. Crabfork fight? I am not familiar... Yes Gemma did say that, and you know what Tywin did? He didnt speak to her at all, his sister whom he loved, for 6 straight months, simply because she told him Tyrion is similar to him. Strange reaction for a father no? Gemma is stating that Tyrion is smart like Tywin. Tyrion was raised by Tywin, so it makes sense that he would take after him a little right? Adopted children can still take after the people who raise them. Right about Red HErrings, but you said, version 1-5 of this thread are red herrings. What are the threads a red herring for? That implies that Unmasked Lurker is making these threads to cover up something else. What pray tell is he covering up by trying to distract other posters with this thread exactly? Page 115 TWoIaF isn't enough for Tywin to submit his resignation? Aerys commenting "ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud." in front of the whole court? Gimme a break that was all the incentive I would need. May I ask where in SSM (canon) does it say only Targaryen's dream dragons? The app and cell comment, I was making light of myself not you. I apologize if my comment was misconstrued. Shucks, my mother-in-law's last words were "You can go now, Gregory" (I was the last person to see alive). Last words are last words little and less may they be understood. Crabfork fight at CB with Thorne. See AGoT Tyrion pages 203/204 and 205 for Aemon's comment (paperback) Genna also said Tywin didn't speak to her for a year because of some unspecified disappointment. So Tywin couldn't have been that miffed (6 months) at Genna's Tyrion comment. It is just that in my view A+J=T is just patently wrong. I firmly believe the Lannister gene pool (from the info in TWoIaF)shallow and that getting two first cousins together will result in Tyrions more often than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It is just that in my view A+J=T is just patently wrong. I firmly believe the Lannister gene pool (from the info in TWoIaF)shallow and that getting two first cousins together will result in Tyrions more often than not. Yet when brother and sister Lannister have 3 kids together they have perfect beautiful blond haired children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 idk what P&P is, but in your last two posts you have stated that AJ= CJ (which has been confirmed by Ran and everyone that it is not possible, GRRm shut the door on it during WOIAF) and that Illyrio has nothing to do with Blackfyres, so I mean it's hard to have a conversation after that, there is too much to explain before we could move forward and sorry I dont feel like it. Chuckle...P&P Pride and Prejudice Jane Austen I'll wait for SSM (canon) to shut the door on AJ=CJ. Ran is not GRRM, he may have his ear but can he read his mind? Do you consider the Golden Company Blackfyres? At this point in I do not, not as long as Connington is front and centre with the true king Aegon at the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yet when brother and sister Lannister have 3 kids together they have perfect beautiful blond haired children? When and if GRRM explicitly states A+J=C+J is not possible, I am of the opinion that they are Aerys children not Tywin's. On that day I apologize profusely to all who I've offended with my faulty knowledge until then I'll hold my belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 When and if GRRM explicitly states A+J=C+J is not possible, I am of the opinion that they are Aerys children not Tywin's. On that day I apologize profusely to all who I've offended with my faulty knowledge until then I'll hold my belief. I admire that. Till the day GRRM kills Jeyne Westerling with out her having Robb Jr, I will stick to my guns that she is pregnant. And even afterwards I will figure who she had the baby and Robb Jr is wandering the countryside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 O my.. I hope I will not disappoint then :) Any idea on how AtS's theory incorporates this part then? The moon was a black hole in the sky. Outside the cave the world went on. Outside the cave the sun rose and set, the moon turned, the cold winds howled. Under the hill, Jojen Reed grew ever more sullen and solitary, to his sister’s distress. She would often sit with Bran beside their little fire, talking of everything and nothing, petting Summer where he slept between them, whilst her brother wandered the caverns by himself. Jojen had even taken to climbing up to the cave’s mouth when the day was bright. He would stand there for hours, looking out over the forest, wrapped in furs yet shivering all the same. “He wants to go home,” Meera told Bran. “He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.” “He’s being brave,” said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered. “He’s being stupid,” Meera said. “I’d hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came.” Makes it sound as if whatever fate awaits Jojen, it awaits him at home.. Does the theory account for that quote? Is there a thread for this? (she asks out of fear for getting too OT) I have been re-reading Bran's chapters for the past few days, and the 2 instances with the direwolves are very convincing. I think in the passage you quoted "He wants to go home" is stated as Jojen's wish more than part of his greendreams. Like he wants to leave the cave, but knows he has to stay or something. I want to re-read the rest of them and think about it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 1.Page 115 TWoIaF isn't enough for Tywin to submit his resignation? Aerys commenting "ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud." in front of the whole court? Gimme a break that was all the incentive I would need. 2.May I ask where in SSM (canon) does it say only Targaryen's dream dragons? The app and cell comment, I was making light of myself not you. I apologize if my comment was misconstrued. 3,Shucks, my mother-in-law's last words were "You can go now, Gregory" (I was the last person to see alive). Last words are last words little and less may they be understood. Crabfork fight at CB with Thorne. See AGoT Tyrion pages 203/204 and 205 for Aemon's comment (paperback) 4.Genna also said Tywin didn't speak to her for a year because of some unspecified disappointment. So Tywin couldn't have been that miffed (6 months) at Genna's Tyrion comment. 5.It is just that in my view A+J=T is just patently wrong. I firmly believe the Lannister gene pool (from the info in TWoIaF)shallow and that getting two first cousins together will result in Tyrions more often than not. Ill recap these, however we have discussed every single one of these points on these AJT threads in the last 6 month or so if you would like to read them for the info. 1. Aerys ripped out the tongue of the captain of the hands guard (illyn Payne) and Tywin did nothing at all, I think WOIAF proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tywin took a lot on the chin from Aerys. Also on his wedding night Aerys fondled Tywin's new bride, he also did not resign after that. It would take a lot more than just some inane comment to make Tywin resign. 2. *sigh* I dont know where the SSM is, it's just obvious from the reading, it is certainly mentioned in the books several times "Targaryens dream of things to come"....I'll find some quotes. That's why Targaryens are the ones always talking about it. There is much about it in WOIAF though, starting with Daenys the dreamer. Certainly other characters can have visions or make prophecies, but as far as a prophetic dream that contains an animal called a dragon, that is unique to the Targaryen family. Here is the wiki on it, which pretty much has all the info. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragon_dreams "There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest"--Bryden Rivers D&E 3. Sorry for your loss, but I meant in the books last words are meaningful, I can't account for every death in RL. Somewhere in these threads I have a list of all the deaths of important characters and their last words....all meaningful. 4. Where is the quote for that? 5.I doubt Tywin and Joanna were the first Lannister cousins to marry, it seems that most great houses have some stuff within the family (even the Starks) but Tyrion is certainly the first dwarf we've ever heard of in the Lannister or Targaryen family, so there is no accounting for what caused his dwarfism. However he was expected to die at birth, and we know that Aerys had many babies die on him previously with Rhaella. Chuckle...P&P Pride and Prejudice Jane Austen I'll wait for SSM (canon) to shut the door on AJ=CJ. Ran is not GRRM, he may have his ear but can he read his mind? Do you consider the Golden Company Blackfyres? At this point in I do not, not as long as Connington is front and centre with the true king Aegon at the head. lol ok, yeah I've read Pride and Prejudice. It simply does not come up enough in daily conversation for me to create an abbreviation for it (nor would I expect others to). http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104644-the-brightfyre-theory/ http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126482-the-blackfyre/ please read these if you havent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 To the three above posters I'm suggesting the whole A+J=T versions 1 through 5 is a red herring. It is all in your heads just as my "cozincest" is in mine.... Has anyone ever noted the most telling clue to A+J=T? AGoT Tyrion's first chapter...walks into the great hall and orders "a rasher of bacon Brunt Black"....now if that doesn't say he is Aerys son, what does? Why in the hell are people still responding to this person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 Why in the hell are people still responding to this person? While he seems to enjoy being snarky and thinks he is funny (when he really is not particularly funny), he actually does seem to believe the core of what he is saying (which seems to be that A+J=C+J and T+J=T based on a theory that the cousin/cousin marriage is what led "weak" genes which led to Tyrion's deformity -- his response to me in post#139 seemed sincere). So his writing style comes across as a bit "trollish" at times, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being (subject to being convinced he really is just a troll -- or incapable of carrying on an intellectually honest debate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 While he seems to enjoy being snarky and thinks he is funny (when he really is not particularly funny), he actually does seem to believe the core of what he is saying (which seems to be that A+J=C+J and T+J=T based on a theory that the cousin/cousin marriage is what led "weak" genes which led to Tyrion's deformity -- his response to me in post#139 seemed sincere). So his writing style comes across as a bit "trollish" at times, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being (subject to being convinced he really is just a troll -- or incapable of carrying on an intellectually honest debate). Id say the bolded is the case for anybody putting forth the twins being Aerys children, even if they present it in a more literate and respectful manner, as that whole theory is borne of spite from people who didn't pick up on Tyrion being Aerys son. And more specifically I dont even want to begin to try to understand what any of those genealogy acronyms stand for nor whatever the cousin genes thing means lol. But on top of other reasons, this theory always gets stagnated and ultimately seems weaker because people actually respond/give the time of day to people that post stuff like this, or that all 3 are Aerys and Tywin is infertile, or that dwarfs cant ride dragons..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Id say the bolded is the case for anybody putting forth the twins being Aerys children, even if they present it in a more literate and respectful manner, as that whole theory is borne of spite from people who didn't pick up on Tyrion being Aerys son. And more specifically I dont even want to begin to try to understand what any of those genealogy acronyms stand for nor whatever the cousin genes thing means lol. But on top of other reasons, this theory always gets stagnated and ultimately seems weaker because people actually respond/give the time of day to people that post stuff like this, or that all 3 are Aerys and Tywin is infertile, or that dwarfs cant ride dragons..... I never thought about the bolded before, it does make a lot of sense when you say it like that :) I'm sorry I was lowering the standards of this thread by responding :P (i just get bored at work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 I never thought about the bolded before, it does make a lot of sense when you say it like that :) I'm sorry I was lowering the standards of this thread by responding :P (i just get bored at work) I guess the bottom line for me is that I hope that this thread is as welcoming to people with opposing views as possible. I don't want trolls or jerks -- but people who really think that A+J=C+J and T+J=T (or just don't believe A+J=T) should be welcome and treated as respectfully as possible. Otherwise, we just end up talking to ourselves. My thinking gets crisper when I have to defend it to people who have contradictory theories. And sometimes I just get bored at work. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 1. Aerys ripped out the tongue of the captain of the hands guard (illyn Payne) and Tywin did nothing at all, I think WOIAF proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tywin took a lot on the chin from Aerys. Also on his wedding night Aerys fondled Tywin's new bride, he also did not resign after that. It would take a lot more than just some inane comment to make Tywin resign. That's because Tywin is as smart and patient as he is vindictive and ambitious. Tywin knows exactly who his King is, and you dont make an enemy of Aerys unless you have the ability to take him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 That's because Tywin is as smart and patient as he is vindictive and ambitious. Tywin knows exactly who his King is, and you dont make an enemy of Aerys unless you have the ability to take him down. Totally! :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider14 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'm new to all of the A+J=T, but the Moqorro quote re: tyrion with a big shadow, snarling, always seemed to me to refer to a lion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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