The Laughing Storm's daughter and Celia Tully

[Bael's Bastard]

The Laughing Storm Lyonel Baratheon's daughter was betrothed to Aegon V's heir Prince Duncan, while Celia Tully was betrothed to Aegon's second son and eventual successor Jaehaerys (II).

To be betrothed to marry the first and second in line to the king is a pretty big deal. So do we have any candidates or ideas of who these Queens-who-never-were might have gone on to marry after their royal betrothals were broken?

[Lord Varys]

No candidates, but it seems to me that the unknown Baratheon girl met a tragic end. Yandel talks about Duncan causing her much grief when he dumped her. Perhaps she was very much in love with him.

We know nothing about Celia Tully, however I'd find it interesting if she became the Lady of Riverrun and Hoster's and Brynden's mother, although I'm not sure if the time line would allow that.

[Bael's Bastard]

How old is Hoster? Jaehaerys broke the betrothal in 240.

[Fat Mac]

How old is Hoster? Jaehaerys broke the betrothal in 240.

Hoster should have been born then. Also, Walder Frey mentioned living through 5 Lords Tully. I mean, I guess he could be using the term Lord generally, but I took it as 5 men. I'm guessing Celia was an aunt.

As to OP, I'm assuming they married prominent Riverlords and Stormlords. I read a theory on Reddit that the Baratheon girl married a Lord Estermont, thereby solving the Estermont family tree discrepancy.

Also, kind of off topic but kind of related, is it in good order to assume great-uncle Harbert was a Baratheon, a son of Lyonel and brother to Ormund?

[Lord Varys]

Well, according to the birth calculations Celia could possibly be Hoster's mother if she took another man and gave birth to Hoster the same year the betrothal was broken. Not impossible but perhaps not all that likely. The five Lord Tullys could be easily resolved either by Walder skipping the woman, counting her among the lords, or by Hoster's mother never ruling as Lady of Riverrun because she predeceased her own father - say, she died in childbirth delivering Brynden.

I'd go with Harbert being Ormund's younger brother, yes. The Laughing Storm should have had quite some children as he lived for quite some time being already around in 209 AC, although we don't know how he old he is there - he doesn't seem to be Lord of Storm's End at that time. Harbert's line should be quite insignificant if it exists, by the way, as he wouldn't be of Ormund and Rhaelle's Targaryen-Baratheon branch - which means his descendants may have a claim to Storm's End but not to the Iron Throne.

[Bael's Bastard]

My impression is Hoster was too old to be born 240 or later, but I am not sure how old he was when he died. I thought he was well into his sixties when he died?

I would also expect Lyonel Baratheon to have had more children than just Ormund and the daughter that had been betrothed to Prince Duncan, though I suppose it is not impossible he didn't.

Lyonel seemed to already be old enough to father children in 209, and Duncan broke the betrothal to his daughter and married Jenny the year before Jaehaerys and Shaera secretly married in 240.

That is thirty years alone, not counting however much longer he lived between 239 and 259-260 when Ormund is called a lord.

[Fat Mac]

The wiki places Hosters birth between 237 and 240. I'd lean more towards 237, personally, which would put his death at around age 62.

Regarding Lyonel, wasn't the daughter that was supposed to marry Duncan referred to as his "eldest" daughter? I might need to check the book again, but if it does say that, it means he had at least one more daughter, bringing his total to at least 4 kids (assuming Harbert was one).

Here's the theory I read that says Lyonel's daughter actually married Eldon Estermont, in case anyone's interested in reading:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2tuwym/spoilers_all_solving_a_grrm_mistake_suggests_who/

[Bael's Bastard]

IIRC it says "a daughter of" Lyonel, but no indication either way on whether she was the only daughter or there were others.

[Fat Mac]

IIRC it says "a daughter of" Lyonel, but no indication either way on whether she was the only daughter or there were others.

You're right, I double checked. I guess I took the book saying "a" daughter instead of "the" daughter as him having more than one.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Do we actually know that Ormond was the son of Lyonel?

[Lord Varys]

I'd assume that Lyonel had many daughters, and was perhaps first married to a barren wife (or a wife who died in childbirth), and eventually remarried around the same time Egg married Betha. Else this whole marriage contract thing makes little sense. Lyonel was old enough to marry around in 209, and those children would then be certainly too old to marry any Targaryens who were born in the 220s. Ormund and Harbert may be the only sons Lyonel had, and they could have been his youngest children. The daughter Duncan spurned should have been the third youngest child, being slightly elder than Ormund.

Rhaelle was Egg's youngest child, and considering that Duncan was betrothed to Lyonel's daughter for two years one should expect that Lyonel had already arranged a marriage for his eldest son and heir if Ormund was one of his older children - which would subsequently have made the Ormund-Rhaelle match impossible. Continuing the male branch of House Baratheon would have been of paramount importance, after all.

Honestly, I think it is a mistake to include Lyonel in this whole marriage contract thing. It would have made more sense if the spurned Baratheon was Lyonel's eldest son, with Lyonel possibly still being around as Lord of Storm's End. But then, we don't know how old the Laughing Storm is in THK. He isn't yet Lord of Storm's End, and he is certainly a young man, but I don't think he is of the age of Aerion/Dunk (16) or Daeron (18) either, but around twenty or perhaps already in his twenties as he is already an established and experienced tourney champion who has already made himself a reputation and a big name.

[Mithras]

Jon Arryn was said to be older than Hoster to emphasize the age difference between him and Lysa. It is mentioned that he was 20 years older than Hoster but apparently he was not older than Hoster's father. Else it would be mentioned that he was older than Lysa's grandfather in order to emphasize the age difference between them.

[WhitewolfStark]

We know nothing about Celia Tully, however I'd find it interesting if she became the Lady of Riverrun and Hoster's and Brynden's mother, although I'm not sure if the time line would allow that.

Celia would have been old enough to have been Hoster's aunt, most likely.

Hoster's born somewhere in the late 230s (somewhere between 237 - 240 per the Wiki), so she wasn't his mother.

As for figuring who was likely Hoster's mother...

Typically, I'd say look at the household and see if you can find a person who holds a comfy position but has a "good name" so to speak. Typically high-ranking positions in a household (steward, master-at-arms, etc.) could have gone to a younger brother of a lady who married into the house. That was one solution in the old days, that if a girl makes a good marriage, she can help her younger brothers (and sometimes nephews or cousins as well) find positions in her household.

So I personally think that Hoster's mother was possibly a Wayn, with Utherydes being a cousin to the Tullys.

Also some Tully on their tree needs to be named Aloysius. I mean, we have Elmo, Kermit, Grover, and Oscar. Aloysius would just match. :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jon Arryn was said to be older than Hoster to emphasize the age difference between him and Lysa. It is mentioned that he was 20 years older than Hoster but apparently he was not older than Hoster's father. Else it would be mentioned that he was older than Lysa's grandfather in order to emphasize the age difference between them.

It was mentioned that Jon Arryn was old enough to be Lysa's grandfather... The fact that he was not compared to her actual grandfather, could easily have been because the grandfather was simply no longer alive..

[Lord Varys]

Not to mention that George may not have known who her actual grandfather was.

I'm inclined to believe that the Tullys have Lothston blood, thus a good candidate for Hoster's mother or grandmother could be a Lothston (a sister or aunt of Mad Danelle). An interesting idea for Celia's eventual husband could be the heir to the first Lord Whent - with Hoster's wife Minisa being the younger sister of Celia's husband. We don't know when exactly the Lothstons were put down, only that it happened during the reign of Maekar I, and that Mad Danelle's madness and sorcery stuff were the cause - although Danelle doesn't seem to have been the last Lothston to rule Harrenhal (that one was a Lord Lothston).

The first Lord Whent could already have had children of his own by then, and if we assume the Whents got Harrenhal in, say, 230 AC, Celia and the Whent heir to Harrenhal could have been about the same age in 240 AC.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Do we actually know that Ormond was the son of Lyonel?

I am pretty sure Lord Lyonel fathered at least four children - Ormund, Harbert, the eldest Baratheon daughter who Duncan spurned and maybe a younger daughter. Ormund then married Rhaelle and probably only had one child with her (indicating the marriage was short due to childbirth or Ormund's death during the War of the Ninepenny Kings), that child being Steffon. Steffon being half-Targaryen is cousins with Aerys and becomes buddies-buddies with him.

It's confirmed in the World of Ice and Fire and it's on the wiki - which is very much canon I think.

[The Wondering Wolf]

It's confirmed in the World of Ice and Fire and it's on the wiki - which is very much canon I think.

The source for the wiki is apparently The World of Ice and Fire and the book doesn't confirm it.

A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel's heir.

Peace was restored only after the Kingsguard knight Ser Duncan the Tall faced Lord Lyonel in a trial by battle, Prince Duncan renounced his claim to crown and throne, and King Aegon V agreed that his youngest daughter, the Princess Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel's heir.

I think it's really remarkable that Ormond is never called Lyonel's eldest son or son at all. Maybe he was a grandson, solving the timeline issue Lord Varys mentioned. But I guess it doesn't really matter for the topic anyway.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The source for the wiki is apparently The World of Ice and Fire and the book doesn't confirm it.

I think it's really remarkable that Ormond is never called Lyonel's eldest son or son at all. Maybe he was a grandson, solving the timeline issue Lord Varys mentioned. But I guess it doesn't really matter for the topic anyway.

Interesting observation...

[Lord Varys]

Well, the grandson idea isn't bad at all. The marriages were brokered in 237 AC, one year after the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, and who is to say that Lyonel's eldest son and heir didn't die there or during the Peake Uprising or some other way. Ormund being Lyonel's grandson would make things much easier.

[Fat Mac]

Ormund being Lyonel's grandson is certainly interesting. One of the reasons I wish we got a Baratheon family tree. I don't think its too out of the question to still have him be his son though. If Steffon was born in 246, Ormund would probably be around 20 years older, placing his birth somewhere in the 220s. Now, Lyonel would be more than 20 at this point, given he was probably at least 20 in 209. If Lyonel was born in lets say 189, it could make sense for Ormund to be born around 225 or so. It could work if Ormund was one of Lyonel's later children. If Lyonel had a few daughters (I'm thinking its obvious that his daughter is older than Ormund), before any sons, it makes sense for his first son to be born in his thirties. Rickon was born when Ned was in his 30s, same with Tyrion, Viserys, Edmure and probably some others. It would also explain him keeping to have children.

The main reason I'm questioning Ormund being Lyonel's grandson is, do we have any indication that Lyonel is married as of 209? If he wasn't then the Baratheons must have all been young parents between him and Steffon. Say he wasn't, but got married in had a kid around 210 at the earliest (this kid being the father of Ormund), that places 36 years between the birth of hypothetical father of Ormund and Steffon. Which would mean, father of Ormund and Ormund would both have had to have their children around 18. Again, certainly not out of the question, seeing as Steffon did the exact same thing, but it makes it a little clunky imo.