[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

[Khal Boner]

There is no explanation (and none given) how Tyrion and Jorah and company are alive. They were last seen beset against odds so hopeless a dragon had to run away. Yet the next scene they feature in, all are alive and unwounded. That seems rather swiss-cheesy to me.

Use your imagination. Most of the Harpies were running away at the end of last weeks episode. They wanted to kill the queen, not her guards, translator and a dwarf they'd never heard of. Maybe a column of unsullied arrived in time to get them out of there. Who cares, it's not a documentary.

[Night'sQueen]

There's a lot of really tedious chatter on these boards that HBO are doing it wrong because they leave out this or that or they tweak this or that or they include some stuff at the expense of of other stuff or whatever. There are even those that like to accuse the show runners of creating "fan fiction", or tiresome conversations about "He didn't say ghost". or whatever.

All I have to say is, if that's the way you demand literary adaptations in cinema or TV are supposed to work, then be prepared for a lifetime of disappointment.

As much as I would have like to have seen Jamie's sojourn through the river lands, (the biggest change IMO), I have no problem with the change they made and I understand why they made it. That's just about the biggest change I can think of this season.

It might not be their best, but I enjoyed this season.

Oh, and Benjen is not coming back. Get over it.

Not many people talking sense around here. Well played.

Yeah. The neat part is the show Melisandre seems to understand this and for the first time, we see her genuinely afraid for her life. I found that really cool to be honest. She knows she failed. She knows if Stannis lives, hes gonna kill her. She knows if Stannis dies, its her fault. Either way, she knows she done fucked up.

The thing about Jon was that the situation was entirely different and took away the sense of urgency in the books. While i did like the Benjen nod, it didnt feel like Jon was gearing up to go kick ass and take names with Watch members and wildlings. Therefore it felt a little cheap. The scenes that did feel cool were Cersei's and Dany's. Those, imo, made perfect sense. Arya's did to an extent, but Arya in the books is more subtle and taking her subtlety away bugs me.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Yep. Hes not out of the cast, that is why. That interview is just BS on a stick. Looks like a troll and its a damn good one because some of you guys are buying it. Kit's coming back, guys. Also, Stannis isnt dead. Olly is also correct that Benjen isnt dead. That shit was foreshadowing on a cracker. I also feel like Ghost is going to be gnawing on some domes. The only character that might be dead is Myrcella.

Awesome.

[Rhaegun]

If you've gone out of your way to establish that the snow is melting, do not show any snow-storming in the episode, have scenes of people walking over ground only partially covered in snow, and then show two people jumping off of an 80 feet wall without ever showing a snow drift below them it just looks like they committed suicide. That's just sloppy. All they would have had to do is establish big snow drifts, but they did the exact opposite, showing the thin snow cover.

Actually, I agree the Renly thing isn't a plot hole, but the rest of them are. And there are several others, as I mentioned and as others mentioned.

So people think this was an escape attempt? Looked like suicide to me. I must be watching a different show.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

Thanks Khal. I agree. It's TELEVISION. They have 20 more hours to finish the saga. They can't show every transitional occurence to ward off potential plot holes. Is it impossible they escaped? No, it's not? Okay, then, deal with it.

From my second viewing, the harpies were greatly reduced and fleeing. I'm sure the Unsullied in reserve showed up and rescued them. Why dwell on *that*. Enjoy the show!

[Rhaegun]

Double post, sorry

Edited June 15, 2015 by Rhaegun

[LmL]

Also, yeah, Varys just walks out on to the balcony in Mereen? At the top of the pyramid? He's not a faceless man, and Mereen isn't his city...

Stannis being along in the woods after the battle where his whole force was routed is completely unrealistic.

Mel riding from Winterfell to the Wall inside of one episode in the middle of Winter. I mean, one episode to the next, we all give them a pass, but in the same episode?

Then we have the straight cheesy: three dudes sitting on the step in the throne room like there's nothing to do. Just so boring. A city in chaos, if only there was something to do. Anyone know any good stories? Man, so boring around here.Then we have the "OH!! You turned away from watching the tower thirty seconds too soon. So close! Man!"

We had our obligatory "let's make any already dark scene truly horrific by adding in unnecessary and upsetting violence for shock factor" of the week... pedophilia isn't bad enough, let's have him hit beat the little girls. Par for the course from these guys.

[Grail King]

Can someone please explain to me why did Dany remove her ring after seeing the Dothraki?

bread crumbs per D & D

[draft0]

Anyway, some of you are living in an alternate reality where the show has no logistical constraints at all, when in reality writing a book and making a big budget cable show are two different things. Location filming, actors, timing, CGI, entertainment purposes (audience pleasing), these are all things that put actual constraints on the plot.

Had HBO made ADWD and AFFC into 4 seasons as some of the Pollyanna's around here wanted to happen, then the show would have gone the way of Rome and been cancelled before arriving at a conclusion.

Okay, fine, you like that a bunch of boring stuff from AFFC/ADWD was cut. I don't agree but I respect that.

Why do I care about the logistics of making a cable TV show? I'm not making the show, I'm watching it. What I see is what I critique.

I like both, and understand they cant exactly do and show everything from the books, and I get the books have more depth. I read the books to get the juicy stuff and to feel fulfilled, while I enjoy the show for the entertainment factor and because this is the only way you'll see this novel get adapted.

I agree with this.

Edited June 15, 2015 by draft0

[LmL]

So people think this was an escape attempt? Looked like suicide to me. I must be watching a different show.

Ha ha ha, my point exactly. It was supposed to be an escape attempt. Hilarious.

[Attitude]

Just a question to be clear; the deaths we've 'seen' in this episode are:

Stannis (off screen)

Selyse (hanged herself)

Myrcella (poisoned by Ellaria)
Jon Snow (Stabbed by his brothers)

If I look at the game of thrones page, all of these are confirmed...

[EobardThawne]

Cool as Hardhome was, does anyone think that CGI would have been much better spent constructing an actual battle between Winterfell and Stannis so his death and the crushing of this army he's been building since S2 wasn't so anticlimatic?

[Mladen]

Jeez, I feel like we first need to explain what a plot hole is. Is something that has no explanation neither in the show or out of it.

Ellaria wants war. Fine.

Kills Myrcella would cause war? Fine.

Yet, this murdering plan was set to happen while the FUCKING HEIR OF DORNE was travelling with the girl to King's Landing. That's idiotic.

How can Dorne go to war if KL has a hostage? Wan't that the point of sending Myrcella to Dorne? That Dorne wouldn't fight? Now Dorne cannot fight KL because KL has Doran's only son.

The ship didn't turn back. They are taking Trystane to KL and probably as a prisoner. So, unless Jaime goes fully idiot and says "no, I don't believe you have to do with this because you loved her", he will keep Trystane as a hostage as well. And you all thing KL will be ok. about Dorne killing their princess?

Ellaria didn't start a war, she simply fucked up Doran.

Wait, someone actually missed that gaping plot hole size of Dornish birthmark? LOL...

[EobardThawne]

Biggest disappointment- Stannis' death. In a way I'm glad he's gone because of the character assassination to him, and I don't think I honestly could have tolerated them trying to sort that mess, but it was still horribly anticlimatic I feel. For a character that's been around since S2 and an actor of Dilane's caliber he could have gotten a much, much better send off. Honorary disappointed mention to STILL no Stoneheart or Greyjoys. Also, Bran did not, contrary to their statement, show up this season, so his one scene must have been cut. Most ridiculous moment goes to Sansa/Theon jumping off the walls without showing how high the snow was and some people convinced they jumped to their deaths rather than face Ramsey.

BEST moments- Jon's death was handled really well. Yes, with a screaming Wun Wun and it all being a bit more anarchic and chaotic it could have been better but I still think it was done well. The true best moment was CERSEI and her walk. Sheer brilliance and straight from the page. You see, D and D? The best scenes more often than not come straight from the books. But that was truly brilliant. Lena Headey, hate Cersei as we may, is one hell of an actress, and they nailed "Ser Robert" and his design.

I hope Winds of Winter comes out before S6. I loved some scenes this series, but it felt a bit off the whole way through beyond just book changes- rushed writing, weird and superfluous and frankly stupid plots like Dorne's, and deaths purely for shock- Shireen, Barristan (GIVE ME BARRISTAN)- left it the weakest season so far. Oh well. Bring on Winds of Winter, George.

[Khal Boner]

pedophilia isn't bad enough, let's have him hit beat the little girls. Par for the course from these guys.

Going for the cheapshots now.

[lancerman]

Jeez, I feel like we first need to explain what a plot hole is. Is something that has no explanation neither in the show or out of it.

Ellaria wants war. Fine.

Kills Myrcella would cause war? Fine.

Yet, this murdering plan was set to happen while the FUCKING HEIR OF DORNE was travelling with the girl to King's Landing. That's idiotic.

How can Dorne go to war if KL has a hostage? Wan't that the point of sending Myrcella to Dorne? That Dorne wouldn't fight? Now Dorne cannot fight KL because KL has Doran's only son.

The ship didn't turn back. They are taking Trystane to KL and probably as a prisoner. So, unless Jaime goes fully idiot and says "no, I don't believe you have to do with this because you loved her", he will keep Trystane as a hostage as well. And you all thing KL will be ok. about Dorne killing their princess?

Ellaria didn't start a war, she simply fucked up Doran.

First off NO that's not a plot hole.

A plot hole is a some type of action (whether it's a missing event or an actual event) which renders another event impossible as a result. It's a missing element. Quite literally a hole in the plot. It makes another event impossible.

By the way your whole logic falls apart with the fact that when Lysa held Tyrion hostage Tywin had his banners attack the Riverlands in retaliation. He was the heir to House Lannister at the time with no expectation that Jamie would ever be released of his vows. They still went to "war" (though in a smaller scale).

Trystane whether he is executed or is a prisoner doesn't effect Dorne nearly as much because they can more easily legitimize a bastard, especially since they don't have the same stigma, furthermore it forces Doran's hand because without Myrcella there is nothing to be gained from the Lannister's. We also don't know if Dorne has anymore legitimate people in the line of succession anyways.

[fael097]

Cersei has really nice, natural breasts.

That is the nicest thing I can say at this point.

You know nothing. It's a body double.

[Shienberg]

Stannis died when he lost to fucking Ramsey. Literally a joke.

I'm sure someone has addressed this but I am not sifting through 25 more pages to check. Stannis lost half of his men and all of his horses. Calvary defeats infantry in any war ever. Ramsay did not defeat Stannis. Stannis defeated Stannis when he burned Shireen and lost his men's loyalty. Stannis was a great commander, not a god.

[A Man Has Said]

As Ramsay Snow said, "If you think this is going to turn out well, you haven't been paying attention."

The whole season has been a crock of shit. And I've always been more fond of the books than the show, but seriously, I blame GRRM more than I do D&D. He wrote himself into a corner in the first three novels, and after two false starts and 11 years, AFfC and ADwD were in many respects not nearly as good as the first three. Thus, harder for Benioff and Weiss to adapt.

Attending EVERY Comicon in the WORLD hasn't given Martin much time to work on TWoW, either. Add to that his penchant for editing every anthology that comes along* and the Jean Cocteau, I seriously doubt that he will ever finish the series, though I would love to have him prove me wrong.

And no, I don't mind at all that he watches the odd NFL football game. But as someone who has been in the position of avoiding working on something myself, I know the signs. Taking on other projects (the anthologies) and assigning them a higher priority is the best way to screw the pooch and not feel TOO guilty about it. The fact that GRRM referred to AFfC as "a real bitch" and ADwD as "Two bitches and a bastard" should give you some indication of his mindset.

* - (is that really necessary? There's no-one else in the field of fantasy and science fiction who could do that? Really?)

[lancerman]

Cool as Hardhome was, does anyone think that CGI would have been much better spent constructing an actual battle between Winterfell and Stannis so his death and the crushing of this army he's been building since S2 wasn't so anticlimatic?

There's a very good chance that the Pink Letter was Stannis' death scene in the books. So no I think there is a very good chance they gave us enough. We saw an army that was clearly outnumbered charging into a force that was completely overwhelming. We saw the result of the carnage. Stannis got a few good licks in before someone who had a legitimate reason to kill him avenged Stannis' first sin on the show.

[draft0]

I'm sure someone has addressed this but I am not sifting through 25 more pages to check. Stannis lost half of his men and all of his horses. Calvary defeats infantry in any war ever. Ramsay did not defeat Stannis. Stannis defeated Stannis when he burned Shireen and lost his men's loyalty. Stannis was a great commander, not a god.

Have to say I really liked that scene. Sort of ties into the "half of my army is made up of unbelievers" quote from the books.