[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

[falcotron]

I will say it again.

If Stannis is already dead in the books, then D&D lied when they said he burned Shireen. He can't do both. One or the other.

How do you figure that?

Of course we know that, from Theon's PoV, Stannis isn't dead at the start of book 6. But that just means Theon's PoV is behind Jon's. That would hardly be the first time the PoVs aren't in chronological order. And, more importantly, that's true no matter what happens to Stannis.

Anyway, I don't think he's the one who burns Shireen in the books; Mel and Selyse will do it while he's away (and it'll be ambiguous whether Stannis knew they were planning to do it). And I suspect Selyse will kill herself not because she didn't stop Shireen's sacrifice, but because, even with the sacrifice, Stannis failed.

Meanwhile, book Stannis will die unambiguously, cut down while instructing one of his knights to go find his second-cousin once-removed Squiggy, who should be 3 soon, and tell him that as Lyonel Baratheon brother's great-grandson he'd better get ready to fight for the throne, because it's not his right, it's his duty.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The old trick of "but the books have more rapes!".

Actually, I wished the show had included a few more of those:

1. The one that consolidated Tyrion as an asshole who reached bottom and

2. The one caused by Littlefinger sending Jeyne Poole to his own brothel to be "trained".

3. The one of Pia that made Jaime behead one of his own men.

But of course, those couldn't happen. They invented rapes for women in the show, but those perpetrated by men are cut. And the one that presented Jaime in a favorable light was also cut because it's better to make Jaime a clown in Dorne.

Edited June 15, 2015 by JonCon's Red Beard

[lancerman]

I'm going to sleep but it's very very very funny to read how all of the show criticisms here is received as "YOU HAVE MENTAL PROBLEMS GO CHECK YOURSELF!!".

Do we need more proof that the show can't be defended when all defence is "stop giving arguments and shut the fuck up"?. People who give criticism is actually giving good argumentation. What we get? "go away"s, "you're crazy"s or "you're wrong because I can explain what the show has not explained by pulling some kind of lame explanation from my ass"s.

Everytime you guys get an argument against you, you just start nitpicking over something else. And you use plot holes and fan fiction out of definition as if you have point..

[Spilt Pea Soup]

You do realize at the time he had no choice? Right? Robert was King, there was no indication that Robert would release him of his vows. And it was likely that Tywin would die before Robert. Tywin also continued to fight a war with the Starks when Jamie was captured. So your theory is still flawed.

We have two examples of Tywin fighting people with one of his potential heirs captured. And Tywin was NOT going to be okay with having a bastard much less legitimizing one. Dorne is cool with bastards and cool with woman running the show. We also don't know if Doran has other heirs that exist.

God this is brilliant. Just demonstrating how THE ULTIMATE PLOT HOLE is in fact something George did way back when and not actually that big of a deal.

[lancerman]

The old trick of "but the books have more rapes!".

Actually, I wished the show had included a few more of those:

1. The one that consolidated Tyrion as an asshole who reached bottom and

2. The one caused by Littlefinger sending Jeyne Poole to his own brothel to be "trained".

3. The one of Pia that made Jaime behead one of his own men.

But of course, those couldn't happen. They invented rapes for women in the show, but those perpetrated by men are cut. And the one that presented Jaime in a favorable light was also cut because it's better to make Jaime a clown in Dorne.

Well it doesn't really surprise me that you criticize the much tamer and fewer rapes in the show but want the more egregious ones from the book that were completely unnecessary.

[averde]

Hug for you too...

yes, #fuckNeymar

Neymar is the Joffrey of futbol

[TheReal_Rebel]

No, it doesn't. Meryn's death was already well deserved. Beating little girls on screen was tasteless and did nothing for the plot. Just like adding a pregnancy staging tot he Red Wedding, or the entire Sansa rape thing. Or the "rape as a background prop" thing at Craster's keep. Really, it's a pattern.

I disagree. I don't put this scene in same category as Sansa's rape.

Meryn in the throes of hurting the girls and Arya avenging herself, and girls as a whole upon him was dramatically satisfying.

The background rapes happened in the books as well.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

Wow. I congratulate you on the fact you know exactly what every other reader wants or wants not to see.

It boils down to its better because it avoided some of the widely agreed upon pitfalls of ADWD and AFFC. It isn't perfect, but they had no choice. There was simply no way they could adapt those novels faithfully and a) stay within 7 seasons and b] not lose viewership for the boredom.

I am genuinely sorry for my comment regarding treatment. It was off-hand and unthoughtful of me, and I apologize. I do not wish to make light of mental illness.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Spilt Pea Soup

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well it doesn't really surprise me that you criticize the much tamer and fewer rapes in the show but want the more egregious ones from the book that were completely unnecessary.

How is Sansa's rape "tamer" than the ones in the book? Did your books have sound and made Pia scream?

Also, LOL at thinking they are unnecessary.

Tyrion DID realise he was very much dead after he forced himself with that slave whore despite he was saved from drowning.

Jaime's saving Pia proved he's not some asshole but that he actually cared about people and he's compassionate. Also, it proves he's not Tywin's son as Tywin ordered the rape of Tysha despite he was trying VERY HARD to be like him.

And finally, Jeyne's proved how little LF cares for people and how he's all cruelty behind his nice facade of a Mr. Nice Helpful Guy. It also proved how people in general cared little for people without an important last name.

[Khal Boner]

Everytime you guys get an argument against you, you just start nitpicking over something else. And you use plot holes and fan fiction out of definition as if you have point..

Virtue signalling. It's a real thing.

[Khal Boner]

How is Sansa's rape "tamer" than the ones in the book? Did your books have sound and made Pia scream?

Also, LOL at thinking they are unnecessary.

Tyrion DID realise he was very much dead after he forced himself with that slave whore despite he was saved from drowning.

Jaime's saving Pia proved he's not some asshole but that he actually cared about people and he's compassionate. Also, it proves he's not Tywin's son as Tywin ordered the rape of Tysha despite he was trying VERY HARD to be like him.

And finally, Jeyne's proved how little LF cares for people and how he's all cruelty behind his nice facade of a Mr. Nice Helpful Guy. It also proved how people in general cared little for people without an important last name.

The show has also established Jaime's compassion and giving Sansa to the Boltons also established LF's duplicity in regards to her.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

1. The lovely momentum of latinoamerican soapopera when "if she only waited for a single second"...

2. Battle that was, well...

3. WoS that had the emotional impact as reading the news of snowing in Siberia.

4. Sansa jumping... Jesus, Mary and Joseph...

Arya was sort of good...

I have no ways to express how bad this season was. And I am genuinely questioning anyone's taste claiming that this was good. We have passed that "opinions are different". Nope. If you liked this, you have a bad taste. That is the point they had brought us.

Lol, 15 million people like the HBO series but *you* don't, so 15 million people have bad taste.

Regardless: I take it after the dreck that was Dance with Dragons you must feel the same about the book series.

[lancerman]

How is Sansa's rape "tamer" than the ones in the book? Did your books have sound and made Pia scream?

Also, LOL at thinking they are unnecessary.

Tyrion DID realise he was very much dead after he forced himself with that slave whore despite he was saved from drowning.

Jaime's saving Pia proved he's not some asshole but that he actually cared about people and he's compassionate. Also, it proves he's not Tywin's son as Tywin ordered the rape of Tysha despite he was trying VERY HARD to be like him.

And finally, Jeyne's proved how little LF cares for people and how he's all cruelty behind his nice facade of a Mr. Nice Helpful Guy. It also proved how people in general cared little for people without an important last name.

Ughh the dog involvement maybe. The scars and bruises. Theon involvement (not just watching). Also tbh I didn't need a season of Tyrion being depressed. Got more than enough of that in the books. As far as I'm concerned we got two episodes of him and Dany to cut into that dragged out nonsense and he's back on pace.

We also already have proof that Jamie isn't a complete asshole. We didn't need a rape scene to confirm it.

We also already know how LF is cruel bastard from him betraying Ned, sending Roz to be killed, we didn't need a young girl to be forced into sex work to do it.

Yeah most of those were completely disgustingly unnecessary to prove the point they were trying to make. There's a difference between GRRM saying "yeah rape is a harsh reality of this world and even worse in times of war" and needing to shove rape into every spot he can fit it. In some cases yeah it makes sense. In a lot it's just there to be shocking and show how bad character x is.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

I have yet to meet a book fan in person who actually liked ADwD. Granted I've only met probably 15 book fans in person, but all across the board, people were "ughhhhhhh" and "meh" about it. The series? Almost entirely #HYPED and way more than 15 people. I overhear people talking about it all the time.

Need to go to sleep now and forget about the fever swamp that is westeros on Sunday nights.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Spilt Pea Soup

[falcotron]

I'm pretty sure she is at Castle Black throughout in the books. She never follows Stannis into battle—Mel, Shireen and Selyse stay at Castle Black while Stannis and his banners march out.

Selyse and Shireen weren't at Castle Black throughout; they were staying at Eastwatch until the Nightfort was ready, while Stannis was at Castle Black. They temporarily moved into Castle Black later.

I don't remember whether Mel was staying with Selyse's entourage or Stannis's.

But anyway, Mel definitely stayed at the Wall (she even said something about being more useful staying behind because her power is stronger at the Wall), and she was definitely at Castle Black in the final days.

[Mladen]

Lol, 15 million people like the HBO series but *you* don't, so 15 million people have bad taste.

Regardless: I take it after the dreck that was Dance with Dragons you must feel the same about the book series.

LOL at the idea that everzone who watches it, loved it. And yes, everyone who liked this has some serious taste issues.

DWD was a wreck? LOL... Between gaping plot hole of Dorne, pointless Winterfell, troubling Meereen, this wasn't a wreck? Between sexism, shock scenes and lack of any decent characterization, this was what? A piece of art?

Again, the show has come to the point where liking it shows poor taste.

[Pumpkin G. Snark]

First impressions.

So many knots to tie or cut, so many loose ends, and the final episode had to deal with them all. Well, the pace was fast, at least. And there were some surprises for me.

Mildly surprised about:

1. Selyse (now D&D will tell us that GRRM had planned that in his books too? Not only that, though). (And yes, I didn’t believe the leaked photo. Sometimes they turn true.)

2. “There will be no siege”.

Totally surprised about:

1. Stannis + Brienne. Too obvious. (And yes, we didn’t see the actual cutting.)

2. Myrcella. My bet was Tommen. Deftly done, anyway.

3. Varys. Nice turn.

Not surprised about:

1. Samwell + Gilly

2. Sansa + Theon + Myranda

3. Jon, Arya, Cersei (the book has its strong sides, after all)

* * *

The corkscrew / candle scene was very sad. Simply done but strong. But again, how were they supposed to see this tiny flame in daylight?

The battle for Winterfell. So tactfully shown. Visually mirroring Stannis attack on the Wildlings from season 4.

Cersei’s walk feels too long. But we must have such a feeling, of course. And yes, Lena Headey and Stephen Dillane are excellent actors.

Arya + Meryn: such a strong scene. And then this scene with faces. (And Arya’s (temporary) blindness gets another explanation. Fine for TV.) Why can’t they do this kind of adaptation all the time?

Eps from 8 to 10, full of action, somehow compensate for build-up eps 1 — 7. This season (sometimes too slow) has its great moments (I thought there would be less… fewer).

Now what? Waiting for the bulk of TWOW. Have read only 5 chapters by now.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pumpkin G. Snark

[Mladen]

I have yet to meet a book fan in person who actually liked ADwD. Granted I've only met probably 15 book fans in person, but all across the board, people were "ughhhhhhh" and "meh" about it. The series? Almost entirely #HYPED and way more than 15 people. I overhear people talking about it all the time.

Need to go to sleep now and forget about the fever swamp that is westeros on Sunday nights.

And how about perhaps visiting book forums? Plenty of those around there...

And the fact that ADWD wasn't Martin's best work is somehow making this entire season more tolerable? Nope.

[LizzyStark]

I really don't see how Jon can be dead in the books. That would make his entire story and his parentage totally pointless and the author has said I thought his parents are identified in the next book. If he's dead, what is the point of that?

I agree 100%. Why drop hints of his parentage this whole season if he was just going to die in the end? Especially when the season was so jam packed that major story lines were cut short or even ignored. They added scenes talking about Jon's parentage because it is important to the story some how. I don't see how D&D would even bother mentioning Jon's parents if they are just killing him in the end.

Plus didn't JRRM say in an interview that Jon would eventually find out who his parents are?

[The Red Pypar of Thorne]

This episode was very derpy. Never would have thought that Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong would be the high point pf the season's finale.