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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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Has anybody figured out how did Mel know Stannis was defeated? If I'm not mistaken she left the camp before Stannis decided to march on Winterfell. And has anybody figured out how did Boltons muster such a large force? Those were at least twice the numbers of Stannis. Have the Stannis sellswords defected? The show explicitly mentioned Stannis losing horses and then suddenly the Boltons have a huge cavalry-only army. Is that a bit of Chekov?


If they did not defect, then how did Stannis even think that he could lay a successful siege to Winterfell? Even with the deserting sellswords he still has inferior numbers to the Boltons.


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I take this as the thread for those that have read the book and watch the show to be able to discuss both. Opposite opinions are fair game, but some people do take it too far (both sides). Isn't the positive nitpick thread for those of you that find it blasphemous to seriously critisize the show, just as us rant and ravers have our safe place?

Interesting that the thread for us, supposedly, is called "nitpicking". I don't want nitpicking, positive negative or both. A man would begin to think the mods had an agenda.

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Okay. Really really excited for some more Dothraki! Definitely the best part of Danys arc so far, and I just love the whole Mongol/horse riding culture angle. And the language. It's gonna be fun.

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Has anybody figured out how did Mel know Stannis was defeated? If I'm not mistaken she left the camp before Stannis decided to march on Winterfell. And has anybody figured out how did Boltons muster such a large force? Those were at least twice the numbers of Stannis. Have the Stannis sellswords defected? The show explicitly mentioned Stannis losing horses and then suddenly the Boltons have a huge cavalry-only army. Is that a bit of Chekov?

If they did not defect, then how did Stannis even think that he could lay a successful siege to Winterfell? Even with the deserting sellswords he still has inferior numbers to the Boltons.

Bottom line, Stannis is a fool.

At least as a military commander. His fate was deserved.

He was outsmarted at Blackwater. He made foolish decisions and was warned time and time again by Davos only trudge through the snow towards Winterfell right into a trap.

He also decided to put all his trust in Mel. So ya..

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Bottom line, Stannis is a fool.

At least as a military commander. His fate was deserved.

He was outsmarted at Blackwater. He made foolish decisions and was warned time and time again by Davos only trudge through the snow towards Winterfell right into a trap.

He also decided to put all his trust in Mel. So ya..

That could all be true, but it still doesn't answer any of my questions. And for him being insane, I'm not fully on that side. You can see his facial expression in the moment he sees the Bolton army riding towards him. He knows he's done. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Stannis, actually I found him increasingly boring through the book and the show but still I don't think of him as a totally incompetent fool. And concerning Blackwater, if Tywin did not interfere, he would have eventually won. So, although he may be foolish too fight a battle with such high casualties on his side he would still win if not for the interference. And for the Mel part, yes, she garnered far too much influence on him.

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Has anybody figured out how did Mel know Stannis was defeated? If I'm not mistaken she left the camp before Stannis decided to march on Winterfell. And has anybody figured out how did Boltons muster such a large force? Those were at least twice the numbers of Stannis. Have the Stannis sellswords defected? The show explicitly mentioned Stannis losing horses and then suddenly the Boltons have a huge cavalry-only army. Is that a bit of Chekov?

If they did not defect, then how did Stannis even think that he could lay a successful siege to Winterfell? Even with the deserting sellswords he still has inferior numbers to the Boltons.

It seems like the Boltons were expecting them, whether some or all of the sellswords went over to Bolton certainly seems possible. The sellswords had to go somewhere but with this show we might never get an answer about something secondary like this. They came from Essos and will need a ride home and there are ships at Eastwatch, so Stannis has fleet with sailors that has to be accounted for but probably they would split when they heard about Stannis.

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And has anybody figured out how did Boltons muster such a large force? Those were at least twice the numbers of Stannis. Have the Stannis sellswords defected? The show explicitly mentioned Stannis losing horses and then suddenly the Boltons have a huge cavalry-only army. Is that a bit of Chekov?

Well, they definitely deserted. Did they go over to Roose, or run off into the snow to forage for themselves and try desperately to find some way to get the hell out of the North? As far as I can tell, neither we nor Stannis know. But it doesn't really matter, anyway.

If they did not defect, then how did Stannis even think that he could lay a successful siege to Winterfell? Even with the deserting sellswords he still has inferior numbers to the Boltons.

Inferior numbers doesn't always mean a loss. (Drastically inferior numbers, no cavalry, and demoralized troops, of course, is a different story.) Stannis is a better general than Roose or Ramsay. Roose's numebrs include bannermen who are there grudgingly because the Lannisters hold their relatives hostage, and other bannermen who are largely reduced to "second-string" forces after being depleted in Robb's war and/or the Red Wedding. Stannis has magic on his side, and possibly even a god. So, he could easily have expected to win a battle if not for the desertion.

(I'm not sure how he expected to win a long siege; Roose explained the supply situation a few episodes ago, and without the Manderly turmoil from the books, I don't see why they couldn't just hole up.)

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She could still conceive and birth a child, it's just the birth would kill her.

But your in the wrong thread mate, this is a discussion about episode 10, not a discussion about the books.

But Elia didn't die giving birth to her and Rhaegar's third child, she was murdered by the Mountain. So when did she have a third child, especially since Aegon himself was still an infant? And then of course there is the inconvenient fact that Jon has the Stark looks. There is no way Elia is Jon's mother. He's either Ned's son by an unknown woman, or Lyanna's son by Rhaegar.

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(I'm not sure how he expected to win a long siege; Roose explained the supply situation a few episodes ago, and without the Manderly turmoil from the books, I don't see why they couldn't just hole up.)

Exactly. If the army that was shown in the show was indeed all stationed at Winterfell, he could have waited for the Stannis force to start getting sick, cold and hungry and then break the siege in the best moment for him. It would take quite some time for Stannis to make a full circle of spikes and barricades around Winterfell and it would involve lot of men working in the open and expending energy. And Roose is the one that gets the timing on when to attack so that gives him an advantage.

Also, I was very disappointed not to see any of Roose in this episode. I can understand that he decided not to participate in the battle but they could've at least shown him watching the battlefield from some Winterfell tower...

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Why the eff would Ramsay NOT seek out Stannis' body? That's like, the number one thing to do. In terms of writing, why would they make Ramsay not be concerned with finding Stannis on the battlefield to confirm the kill?



Don't say "his army is gone so they aren't worried anymore." Anyone would still seek out the leader's body. Especially Ramsay, the sadistic little elf.


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Why the eff would Ramsay NOT seek out Stannis' body? That's like, the number one thing to do. In terms of writing, why would they make Ramsay not be concerned with finding Stannis on the battlefield to confirm the kill?

Don't say "his army is gone so they aren't worried anymore." Anyone would still seek out the leader's body. Especially Ramsay, the sadistic little elf.

He probably had too much clothes on him and it clouded his judgement. He should've taken the shirt off...

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Has anyone done a survey on the threads to see how many of the people who said that they would stop watching didn't?


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Has anybody figured out how did Mel know Stannis was defeated? If I'm not mistaken she left the camp before Stannis decided to march on Winterfell. And has anybody figured out how did Boltons muster such a large force? Those were at least twice the numbers of Stannis. Have the Stannis sellswords defected? The show explicitly mentioned Stannis losing horses and then suddenly the Boltons have a huge cavalry-only army. Is that a bit of Chekov?

If they did not defect, then how did Stannis even think that he could lay a successful siege to Winterfell? Even with the deserting sellswords he still has inferior numbers to the Boltons.

It was pretty obvious that he was screwed. He knew it. She knew it.

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It was pretty obvious that he was screwed. He knew it. She knew it.

Isn't she the one with almost blind faith in Stannis winning? And along with the visions... What if she saw Jon Snow in the fire visions and decided to head out for the wall? She also may have realized that he is the AA and abandoned Stannis because of that.

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That could all be true, but it still doesn't answer any of my questions. And for him being insane, I'm not fully on that side. You can see his facial expression in the moment he sees the Bolton army riding towards him. He knows he's done. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Stannis, actually I found him increasingly boring through the book and the show but still I don't think of him as a totally incompetent fool. And concerning Blackwater, if Tywin did not interfere, he would have eventually won. So, although he may be foolish too fight a battle with such high casualties on his side he would still win if not for the interference. And for the Mel part, yes, she garnered far too much influence on him.

Well I never alluded to him being insane. However, I stand by that he was a fool in a military sense. And a poor leader of men

In both battles, it was a siege attempt. Which is a very difficult undertaking to claim a fortified city which has a distinct advantage. In both battles, he underrestimated the defenses and made poor tactical decisions prior to his advancements.

Both losses were deserved. His death. The results of his own poor decisions.

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In both battles, it was a siege attempt. Which is a very difficult undertaking to claim a fortified city which has a distinct advantage. In both battles, he underrestimated the defenses and made poor tactical decisions prior to his advancements.

Blackwater wasn't a siege attempt. It was a direct assault. And true, he underestimated the defenses, but he thought that even with that his numbers were vastly superior. But yes, he's a poor leader of men.

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It was pretty obvious that he was screwed. He knew it. She knew it.

The battle was presumably just to the north of Winter Fell, we saw shots taken from a hill overlooking the battle. The outcome was obvious as soon as the Bolton's arrived. Stannis was outnumbered and on foot against cavalry. It is obvious that even if Stannis survives, he will kill her on sight.

Mel has blown it big time. She can't go South because the road goes through Winterfell and the Boltons will likely kill her. The only option she has left is to go North to Castle Black.

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I agree with you about giving Dany some agency again. And I like your idea of Drogon being the key. But I don't like him just killing the Khal for her.

Bearing in mind that I haven't read the book they'll be adapting or asked GRRM about it, I'd write something like this:

She appears to be a damsel in distress for the first couple episodes. They drag her back to Vaes Dothrak, try her, and sentence her to execution or decide to install her as a dosh khaleen seer or whatever.

But then, at the last second, Drogon shows up overhead. She calls him, he swoops down, she jumps up on his back, then she tells everyone that Drogon is the Stallion, and they can follow her and Drogon in Mounting the World or be the first ones mounted. At first everyone is unsure. Then Jhaqo rejects her and throws a spear. Dany points out that, just like her own brother, Jhaqo has not only violated the sacred laws of Vaes Dothrak, but also failed to bloody his enemy. And that gets her not his khalassar, but a massive horde made up of many khalassars.

Meanwhile, Joran and Daario show up and get captured, and Dany makes them shave their heads and ride at the back of the train, because that's what happens to warriors who attack and fail.

Plausible. In the books Drogon is with her so I don't see them taking her unwillingly or face being toasted. I see her agreeing to go with them mainly because she is stranded, needs help and Drogon is still untamed. Probably sees an opportunity to try at get more allies too if she can convince them to join her. So in the books I see her going back with them and possibly uniting the khalassars. However,if the show only had 2 more seasons left that is a lot to do. Go to the Dorhraki city, go back to Mereen and collect the rest of her people, sail the seas and FINALLY get to westeros. The show has to get her to Westeros soon by mid next season I would think?

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Blackwater wasn't a siege attempt. It was a direct assault. And true, he underestimated the defenses, but he thought that even with that his numbers were vastly superior. But yes, he's a poor leader of men.

He couldn't have anticipated the wildfire or Tywin's forces showing up.

Has anybody figured out how did Mel know Stannis was defeated? If I'm not mistaken she left the camp before Stannis decided to march on Winterfell. And has anybody figured out how did Boltons muster such a large force? Those were at least twice the numbers of Stannis. Have the Stannis sellswords defected? The show explicitly mentioned Stannis losing horses and then suddenly the Boltons have a huge cavalry-only army. Is that a bit of Chekov?

If they did not defect, then how did Stannis even think that he could lay a successful siege to Winterfell? Even with the deserting sellswords he still has inferior numbers to the Boltons.

She had an epiphany.

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Plausible. In the books Drogon is with her so I don't see them taking her unwillingly or face being toasted. I see her agreeing to go with them mainly because she is stranded, needs help and Drogon is still untamed. Probably sees an opportunity to try at get more allies too if she can convince them to join her. So in the books I see her going back with them and possibly uniting the khalassars. However,if the show only had 2 more seasons left that is a lot to do. Go to the Dorhraki city, go back to Mereen and collect the rest of her people, sail the seas and FINALLY get to westeros. The show has to get her to Westeros soon by mid next season I would think?

I think she gets out of it easily. If the dothraki know about the dragon, they have come to see it. The rider of a dragon is by any definition the most badass warrior imaginable. Even if the dragon is wounded it may be expected to recover.

Danny is still a Khalessi and entitled to deference and respect as such even without a dragon. So they are not going to kill her on sight.

All she needs to do is to ask the khal to provide food for her dragon and he is putty in her hands.

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