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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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Oh, this, ok I wouldn't read that much into that, if I recall correctly Tyrion was a villain at that point and stuff...

I think the core story-arc is still intact (at least I hope so): the three conflicts (WoFK, Dany Invasion, Others Invasion), and I suspect it's still GRRM's plan that those five characters are still needed to resolve those three conflicts. It certainly could have changed, so much has, but it seems to me that the backbone of the original story is still there.

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I can't speak for whatever this show has become, but ASOIAF is certainly a character-driven story, even if the story is an epic tale. When GRRM originally pitched the series he even specified that five characters would not die - Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, Bran Stark, and Arya Stark (presumably he meant that they will all survive until the endgame, not "they will all live until the series is complete"; and I would also assume that Sansa got promoted to this level at some point). That may very well have changed, but the structure of the series suggests that the survival of those characters is important.

And I have to admit, I really, really, really despise this trend of worshipping TV shows that kill characters seemingly at random. It's not "OMG BRAVE" - it's usually a sign of poor storytelling, bad characterisation and moronic writing. I understand that it's a big reason so many people watch The Walking Dead, for example, but for me it was the reason I eventually quit the show. Particularly because not any character could actually die in TWD (Rick and Carl are pretty much safe for most of the show, for example, unless there are contractual disputes somewhere down the road). The same is true of GoT. Daenerys and Tyrion need to be kept alive until they at least reach Westeros, and then they presumably need to do something in Westeros to justify their journeys. Similarly, Jon Snow needs to remain in the story, otherwise the mystery of his parentage was unneccessary and poor storytelling.

The only "perfect" character in this show is Saint Tyrion, who can do nothing wrong apparently.

This isn't ASOIAF though, it's Game of Thrones. This is an adaptation, not a live action reading of the book. I would argue that ASOIAF is story driven as well though, the medium allows for much more detail and a much more intricate story. It's fascinating to learn about these individual stories, but ultimately they're just a piece of the puzzle. No one character is driving the story though, that's why there are so many protagonists...the story is not about one single character. That's why GRRM kills off characters so easily, they're simply a means to an end.

I understand you want to watch compelling characters, who doesn't. Breaking Bad wouldn't have been brave or ballsy to kill off Walter White, but that's a show that is character driven...what's it about if it's not about Walter White and Jesse Pinkman? What is Game of Thrones about without Jon Snow? Tons of stuff. He's a small piece of a larger story and rather than be a slave to fans who love Jon Snow, they stay true to their story and do what needed to be done. That's assuming he's actually dead which may or may not be true. It's not weak or lazy writing, it's people telling their story and not sacrificing because fans love a character. It's not mean to shock you, it's a means to an end and it's driving another story point.

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I think the core story-arc is still intact (at least I hope so): the three conflicts (WoFK, Dany Invasion, Others Invasion), and I suspect it's still GRRM's plan that those five characters are still needed to resolve those three conflicts. It certainly could have changed, so much has, but it seems to me that the backbone of the original story is still there.





You might be right, that was just an early sketch, a pitch for a publisher, and who's to say what he kept from it up to this point...






He wasn't even a dwarf.





Wow, really? I thought I remembered otherwise, but maybe that's when he came up with the underdog thing... say, you're Peruvian right?


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See, that would have been the perfect opportunity.

Also, I would have liked Cersei and/or Margaery spending a little less time catfighting and more time maybe grooming Tommen for rule and advising him (along with his small council). That would have been another really great time, a la Cersei with Joffrey in season 1 (the everyone who is not us is our enemy talk).

Well I made a thread, so we shall see if they approve it :dunno: Keep an eye out! We can request them to close it/open a new one when it gets too long or ask them how long they prefer the threads to be.

R4W13Y, did you get approval? Keeping an eye out, here.

Isn't a Queen's adultery treason in pretty much any medieval monarchy? Let's face it, if a Queen is committing adultery, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. There's no real way the show can say that it isn't treason and maintain any realism.

Yes, it was (and still is, technically). It's another show mishap, to my mind.

Edited by Ser Quork

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You might be right, that was just an early sketch, a pitch for a publisher, and who's to say what he kept from it up to this point...

Wow, really? I thought I remembered otherwise, but maybe that's when he came up with the underdog thing... say, you're Peruvian right?

Yes, but not a dwarf.

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lol the Peruvian thing was totally unrelated.I just recall you mentioning it at some point. Are you into soccer?

I do. If you think I get all mad with show inaccuracies, is because you never saw me during a Peru Match.

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R4W13Y, did you get approval? Keeping an eye out, here.

Yes, it was (and still is, technically). It's another show mishap, to my mind.

Not yet :bawl:

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I do. If you think I get all mad with show inaccuracies, is because you never saw me during a Peru Match.

lol I saw the match versus Brasil, quite impressive, but I'm a Sporting Lisbon fan, Carillo should have been fielded. He just had a fabulous season, but he's not the guy that comes out of the bench, you gotta field that kid, make him feel that he's important and then he kicks ass. Seriously, I'm partial, but you don't have another one like him in there... and he doesn't work from the bench...

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lol I saw the match versus Brasil, quite impressive, but I'm a Sporting Lisbon fan, Carillo should have been fielded. He just had a fabulous season, but he's not the guy that comes out of the bench, you gotta field that kid, make him feel that he's important and then he kicks ass. Seriously, I'm partial, but you don't have another one like him in there... and he doesn't work from the bench...





Well, Peru won't change the fact it has 4 main pillars: Pizarro, Farfán, Vargas and Guerrero. I haven't yet seen enough of Carrillo to make up my mind about him but I think he's, like the other relatively new kids, being tested on how he works with the team (he scored an autogol in last Cup, hah). I'm sure he wasn't going to be included AT ALL in the match but Farfán was hurt and tired.



(and of course, he's from Alianza Lima, just like Guerrero and Farfán, so, he will be super awesome)


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But... we can't deny Bronn his much needed "bad pussy". How will he survive without it?

Well, Jaime should tell him not to stick his cock in cray cray buuuut....Cersei. ^_^

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Well, Peru won't change the fact it has 4 main pillars: Pizarro, Farfán, Vargas and Guerrero. I haven't yet seen enough of Carrillo to make up my mind about him but I think he's, like the other relatively new kids, being tested on how he works with the team (he scored an autogol in last Cup, hah). I'm sure he wasn't going to be included AT ALL in the match but Farfán was hurt and tired.

(and of course, he's from Alianza Lima, just like Guerrero and Farfán, so, he will be super awesome)

Trust me, you do not have a player like Carillo, there aren't that many around, but he's the kind of player that needs the crowd, the fans either carry him or bury him, this season here in Lisbon it has fortunately been the former :) but you either start him or you might as well just leave him at home. He's 0 from the bench...

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It seems like the Boltons were expecting them, whether some or all of the sellswords went over to Bolton certainly seems possible. The sellswords had to go somewhere but with this show we might never get an answer about something secondary like this. They came from Essos and will need a ride home and there are ships at Eastwatch, so Stannis has fleet with sailors that has to be accounted for but probably they would split when they heard about Stannis.

That's my theory. In fact, I think the two guys Stannis kills just before Brienne shows up are a couple of the deserters. There just seemed to be recognition there....

So what I don't get about the whole Balon issue is...since he is alive, don't you think we would hear more about him and his attempts to claim the throne still? It's like, he's alive but also doesn't really care anymore after mid-Season 4 about fighting for the throne? Couldn't we have gotten something to say he doesn't care and has given up in the show or even better that he has died (preferably hearing this news last season around the stupid Asha rescue mission)?

So Balon won the War of the 5 Kings (yay) but he doesn't give a shit that he won? He just stopped giving a shit about the Iron Throne? Couldn't we have gotten something about this, even just a mention?

The truth is, we don't know what the situation with Balon or anyone in the Iron Islands is.

For all we know, he may have fallen from the bridge and we'll be told that in the next season. We might even see a Kingsmoot and Vic's journey to Slaver's Bay.

Its ambigious. I don't think we see Lancel and Cersei on screen together in a bedroom until after Robert's death. But some of the scenes between Lancel and Tyrion at least imply he was sleeping with her before Robert's death.

I don't think it was ever spelled out, but one has to imagine that Lancel knew about whatever Cersei put in Robert's wine. (Pycelle might have known as well)

I'm not sure what she could have used to convince LL Cool Sparrow other than sex, so the inference is that they were going at it whilst King Robert was still hitting on anything with a skirt (other than his wife) and letting Littlefinger "count coppers".

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That's my theory. In fact, I think the two guys Stannis kills just before Brienne shows up are a couple of the deserters. There just seemed to be recognition there....

The truth is, we don't know what the situation with Balon or anyone in the Iron Islands is.

For all we know, he may have fallen from the bridge and we'll be told that in the next season. We might even see a Kingsmoot and Vic's journey to Slaver's Bay.

I don't think it was ever spelled out, but one has to imagine that Lancel knew about whatever Cersei put in Robert's wine. (Pycelle might have known as well)

I'm not sure what she could have used to convince LL Cool Sparrow other than sex, so the inference is that they were going at it whilst King Robert was still hitting on anything with a skirt (other than his wife) and letting Littlefinger "count coppers".

Right...that's why I said they should have mentioned something this season or last.

Edited by R4W13Y

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Someone asked me today why I bother watching the show if I think it's so bad. Well, the show brought me to the books. I watched S1E1 at my girlfriend's insistence and fell in love with the thing. I watched the whole of season 1 that day and borrowed a copy of AGoT, to see what they were like. I read about a third of it during the night and the next day I went and bought books 1-5. So I'm eternally grateful to the show for bringing me to the books. And I genuinely thought that it was some of the best stuff on TV. I watched seasons 2 and 3, and although they had flaws, I thought that they were still pretty great. Season 4 was when I thought things started going wobbly. But I still enjoyed it and afterwards I looked to season 5 with anticipation. I was looking forward to some of the changes that they would make. But this season has been poor. It left in stuff that should have been cut, it removed stuff that should have been left in. The writing got sloppy and, at times, bad. The leaps of logic required to justify certain narratives became too much. The failures in continuity happened more and more often. Even the acting took a hit this year. But I've never been a hate watcher. I watch each episode hoping for it to be the great show that it once was. Every episode this year I hoped against the increasingly unlikely outcome that the episode would be great, or even good.

I want this show to be great. And that means criticising it when it makes mistakes. And this year there were plenty.

I wished more of those heavily critical posters would admit that they first of all want the show to be great. Actually love and hatred, not indifference belong together as emotional investment. Which in no way justfies the hatespeak towards the showmakers in many posts, that is simply juvenile.

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I wished more of those heavily critical posters would admit that they first of all want the show to be great. Actually love and hatred, not indifference belong together as emotional investment. Which in no way justfies the hatespeak towards the showmakers in many posts, that is simply juvenile.

I'm pretty sure we all want the show to be great. I know I do. I loved it all the way through seasons 1-3 and it introduced me to the books.

I'm highly conflicted and not quite ready to give up on it, but I'm really struggling to truly care about it right now.

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I'm pretty sure we all want the show to be great. I know I do. I loved it all the way through seasons 1-3 and it introduced me to the books.

I'm highly conflicted and not quite ready to give up on it, but I'm really struggling to truly care about it right now.

I want the show to be brilliant, and still think it is pretty good... i watch little TV and this is the one series ive got into more than anything.

I loved seasons 1-3 and liked season 4.

This season though has been up and down, i felt they seemed to be going for the 'shock factor' and contriving instances that would get talked about on media etc.

Im not bothered by gore, or horrid things happening, but in the early seasons it felt logical and plot driven (red wedding, ned stark killing etc)

This season it hasnt, it has felt like the producers have gone 'hey lets do a shocking scene that gets the media talking'

I felt the way they built stannis up with his daughters touching scene then shortly after had her burning was a particularly contrived plotline

and felt completely off.

I think dorne is awful, and i hate the sansa arc as well

But, i will get myself shot for saying this, but when i read the books i felt the early books (1-3) were far superior to 4 and 5, and do think the producers have less quality material to draw from.

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But, i will get myself shot for saying this, but when i read the books i felt the early books (1-3) were far superior to 4 and 5, and do think the producers have less quality material to draw from.

That's the attitude of many on this forum, probably even the majority. I dislike the insinuation though that this season has been the worst due to its poorer source material, considering that most of this season's problems were not related to that. Most of the better stuff this year adhered closely to the books, whilst the worst stuff (Dorne, Winterfell) were major deviations.

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