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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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Yep, Hardhome was it. The only decent episode.

I am doing a rewatch at the moment (ill do a reread at some point too)

and there are some brilliant moments, i will say the robb stark story was better on the show than books for me

The king of the north scene worked for me, and robs grief when he is chopping the tree and speaks to cat REALLY worked for me

Here is hoping that S6 produces moments like that in bucketfuls.

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I am doing a rewatch at the moment (ill do a reread at some point too)

and there are some brilliant moments, i will say the robb stark story was better on the show than books for me

The king of the north scene worked for me, and robs grief when he is chopping the tree and speaks to cat REALLY worked for me

Here is hoping that S6 produces moments like that in bucketfuls.

Well... the show decided to reveal his point of view whereas GRRM seemed to decide RW would be too much if we'd seen Robb's POV. Talisa is definitively not an improvement but that's another matter. Robb being obviously older makes it harder to justify the extreme stupidity of his decisions.

So all in all I would disagree with the bolded, but I did love the first three seasons of the show and it was interesting to at least see the parts of Robb's story that were off-page in the books.

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I agree, it was a case of 'get to shocking scene no matter how contrived and jarring it is' for me.

Exactly.

The show is about "bad things happen to people". That's why the shocking scenes are contrived and jarring.

The books are about "why bad things happen to people". That's why the shocking scenes are organic and momentous.

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Well... the show decided to reveal his point of view whereas GRRM seemed to decide RW would be too much if we'd seen Robb's POV. Talisa is definitively not an improvement but that's another matter. Robb being obviously older makes it harder to justify the extreme stupidity of his decisions.

So all in all I would disagree with the bolded, but I did love the first three seasons of the show and it was interesting to at least see the parts of Robb's story that were off-page in the books.

Robb's campaign, as depicted in the books, make no sense and shouldn't have worked as well as it did. I'm absolutely sure this is not because GRRM doesn't understand anything about military strategy, but because he deliberately gave us third-hand information which was incomplete and sometimes incorrect. This works great for effect, but still, it leaves you wanting to know more. The TV campaign was drastically simplified to the very edge of credibility, but it fits together well enough that you can view it as a simplified version of what actually happened that GRRM wouldn't show us.

This kind of symbiotic relationship between the two versions of the story, where they both improve each other, doesn't come up very often. But if D&D are going to diverge farther from the books (which, I believe, they have no choice in--as I've said elsewhere, the last two books were much more about themes and world-building than about plot, and the actual plot would have made for boring and stupid television), those are exactly the kinds of opportunities they should be seeking out.

And the reason even book purists liked Hardhome is that it's the only time they seem to have looked for such an opportunity this season. They need to do more of that next season--find things that, even if they happen very differently from in the books, still serve to give us a view of something we wish we'd gotten to see in the books.

And not just to make the book purists happy (which I'm sure D&D don't care about at all, and which I don't care about that much), but because the things that force your imagination to run wild in the books are bound to be the things that are easy to turn into compelling television.

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Hi guys,


I just want give my 5 cents. I will stop watching GOT since, for me, it isn’t good television anymore ( I won't explain why, since I think people like Jon Con's red beard or all the rest that participates in the rant and rave thread, already did that)


Though I can understand that some of you like it (e.g. special effects, action)


However, I too think that people who even apologize the show’s failures/plot holes/character misinterpretation or rather the characters zero characterization are in some way unable to recognize the importance of the journey in fantasy. The journey in fantasy/ASOIAF’s journeys is/are of essential importance. It is not a simple geographical journey, but rather a spiritual journey that enables protagonist to find themselves, to understand certain situations, and to undergo challenges, challenges that will change the protagonist’s perceptions. In this sense fantasy is comparable to the genre of Bildungsroman.


Moreover, the journey in fantasy serves as the build-up for the big confrontation at the end. The structure of every fantasy novel is build up like that. First, the reader is introduced to a small group of people, the reader gets to know them. The focus is small in this stage. Then the secondary world opens its focus, the reader gets some world building, new characters, new places. And most importantly some characters will learn about the “danger” (something is wrong in the world they live in, eg. in ASOIAF the consequences of the war, the others). This all happens during the characters’ journeys. This is the build-up. Then later, the focus tightens again and the story is approaching the end.


Of course, I admit I was sometimes bored while reading ASOIAF and I confess I didn’t like the Dornish plot during my first read. Nevertheless, I liked the rest and I cannot stop thinking that - for some of you who whole-heartily defend the nonsense that is produced by DD – the medium “book” is wrong for some people since some people simply want to be entertained (in the sense of action, action action, and not thinking, thinking, thinking).


Don’t get me wrong it is fine to like films, series, etc that are full of action, less dialogues, less travelogues and stuff like that. I don’t want to offend anybody.


I am thinking of a friend of mine. He is highly intelligent but nonetheless prefers low TV entertainment over a good film. He is that type of guy who would never watch the Sopranos or Silver Lighting and prefers 96hours part II. That’s okay. However, he would never seriously defend senseless content, although he is able to detect such content, he simply admits it but still has fun while watching.


Edited by Coby's Watch

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^^^^ I still think GOT is better than most things on TV to be honest, its purely that the 'shock' scenes feel contrived and gratuitous for me- plus theres no way around the fact dorne is crap.



The scenes with the sandsnakes have me cringing a lot of the time. It wasnt the bad pussy line that made me wince most it was seeing 'deadly serious' dialogue delivered over a game of patta cake. Hated the way they got rid of barristan too, i loved that character.



I dont think for a minute that intelligence is anything to do with enjoying 'travelogues' or enjoying action though. And surely the idea of consuming media is entertainment?



I love good dialogue, but dont want long winded descriptions of food etc on the written page, i want things to happen (personal preference of course)...more importantly you cant translate that stuff to film.



I am still holding out for an improved S6 though so i will keep watching


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^^^^ I still think GOT is better than most things on TV to be honest, its purely that the 'shock' scenes feel contrived and gratuitous for me- plus theres no way around the fact dorne is crap.

The scenes with the sandsnakes have me cringing a lot of the time. It wasnt the bad pussy line that made me wince most it was seeing 'deadly serious' dialogue delivered over a game of patta cake. Hated the way they got rid of barristan too, i loved that character.

I dont think for a minute that intelligence is anything to do with enjoying 'travelogues' or enjoying action though. And surely the idea of consuming media is entertainment?

I love good dialogue, but dont want long winded descriptions of food etc on the written page, i want things to happen (personal preference of course)...more importantly you cant translate that stuff to film.

I am still holding out for an improved S6 though so i will keep watching

I agree as I said above that there are different tastes and it has nothing to do with intelligence e.g. a friend of mine as an example.

However, in GOT (season 5, partial season4) there is no good dialogue

Edited by Coby's Watch

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^^^^ I still think GOT is better than most things on TV to be honest, its purely that the 'shock' scenes feel contrived and gratuitous for me- plus theres no way around the fact dorne is crap.

The scenes with the sandsnakes have me cringing a lot of the time. It wasnt the bad pussy line that made me wince most it was seeing 'deadly serious' dialogue delivered over a game of patta cake. Hated the way they got rid of barristan too, i loved that character.

I dont think for a minute that intelligence is anything to do with enjoying 'travelogues' or enjoying action though. And surely the idea of consuming media is entertainment?

I love good dialogue, but dont want long winded descriptions of food etc on the written page, i want things to happen (personal preference of course)...more importantly you cant translate that stuff to film.

I am still holding out for an improved S6 though so i will keep watching

I agree as I said above that there are different tastes and it has nothing to do with intelligence e.g. a friend of mine as an example.

However, in GOT (season 5, partial season4) there is no good dialogue

I highly recommend reading THIS by Chebyshov and Julia Martell. It's a long read but it gets to the absolute crux of the issues.

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While season 5 had some issues - mainly Dorne that was unwisely adapted from Dance and almost as pedestrian as in the book - the last three episodes were an absolute blast and gave us a satisfying end to the season. I especially loved Tyrion and Varys together to rule in Meereen - the imp needs to be in a position of power to be interesting, otherwise he's just pointless "where do whores go?". FTW was handled nicely and had a huge emotional impact. Stannis as a broken man losing the battle of Winterfell was depressing but only consistent with his decisions before. I hope Brienne didn't kill him and he will take revenge on the red witch for making him burn his daughter.



Ah yes, and the walk of shame was a blast, too. Great acting from Lena Headey just before she entered the gates - the utter despair and humiliation on her face was a joy to behold. The Seven have mercy on the her enemies when she unleashes Gregor. Can't wait for season 6!


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I agree as I said above that there are different tastes and it has nothing to do with intelligence e.g. a friend of mine as an example.

However, in GOT (season 5, partial season4) there is no good dialogue

No good dialogue.

So Tyrion and Dany's table scene was not good dialogue?

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While season 5 had some issues - mainly Dorne that was unwisely adapted from Dance and almost as pedestrian as in the book - the last three episodes were an absolute blast and gave us a satisfying end to the season. I especially loved Tyrion and Varys together to rule in Meereen - the imp needs to be in a position of power to be interesting, otherwise he's just pointless "where do whores go?". FTW was handled nicely and had a huge emotional impact. Stannis as a broken man losing the battle of Winterfell was depressing but only consistent with his decisions before. I hope Brienne didn't kill him and he will take revenge on the red witch for making him burn his daughter.

Ah yes, and the walk of shame was a blast, too. Great acting from Lena Headey just before she entered the gates - the utter despair and humiliation on her face was a joy to behold. The Seven have mercy on the her enemies when she unleashes Gregor. Can't wait for season 6!

I completely agree. Dorne was without question the one big misstep.

Personally I thought this season was just as good as the last 4 and much better then what was in the books overall.

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While season 5 had some issues - mainly Dorne that was unwisely adapted from Dance and almost as pedestrian as in the book - the last three episodes were an absolute blast and gave us a satisfying end to the season. I especially loved Tyrion and Varys together to rule in Meereen - the imp needs to be in a position of power to be interesting, otherwise he's just pointless "where do whores go?". FTW was handled nicely and had a huge emotional impact. Stannis as a broken man losing the battle of Winterfell was depressing but only consistent with his decisions before. I hope Brienne didn't kill him and he will take revenge on the red witch for making him burn his daughter.

Ah yes, and the walk of shame was a blast, too. Great acting from Lena Headey just before she entered the gates - the utter despair and humiliation on her face was a joy to behold. The Seven have mercy on the her enemies when she unleashes Gregor. Can't wait for season 6!

Can you please elaborate on the bolded part, please? Not just keep repeating that the books suck and the show improved them, but actually explain to me why and how show Dorne is 'almost as pedestrian as in the book'?

No good dialogue.

So Tyrion and Dany's table scene was not good dialogue?

No, it wasn't good at all imo and in many others' as well.

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While season 5 had some issues - mainly Dorne that was unwisely adapted from Dance and almost as pedestrian as in the book - the last three episodes were an absolute blast and gave us a satisfying end to the season. I especially loved Tyrion and Varys together to rule in Meereen - the imp needs to be in a position of power to be interesting, otherwise he's just pointless "where do whores go?". FTW was handled nicely and had a huge emotional impact. Stannis as a broken man losing the battle of Winterfell was depressing but only consistent with his decisions before. I hope Brienne didn't kill him and he will take revenge on the red witch for making him burn his daughter.

Ah yes, and the walk of shame was a blast, too. Great acting from Lena Headey just before she entered the gates - the utter despair and humiliation on her face was a joy to behold. The Seven have mercy on the her enemies when she unleashes Gregor. Can't wait for season 6!

While season 5 had some issues - mainly Dorne that was unwisely adapted from Dance and almost as pedestrian as in the book - the last three episodes were an absolute blast and gave us a satisfying end to the season. I especially loved Tyrion and Varys together to rule in Meereen - the imp needs to be in a position of power to be interesting, otherwise he's just pointless "where do whores go?". FTW was handled nicely and had a huge emotional impact. Stannis as a broken man losing the battle of Winterfell was depressing but only consistent with his decisions before. I hope Brienne didn't kill him and he will take revenge on the red witch for making him burn his daughter.

Ah yes, and the walk of shame was a blast, too. Great acting from Lena Headey just before she entered the gates - the utter despair and humiliation on her face was a joy to behold. The Seven have mercy on the her enemies when she unleashes Gregor. Can't wait for season 6!

Dorne in the show was significantly worse than anything that appeared in Feast or Dance. It was outright terrible TV and nothing like its book counterpart. Winterfell was also done horrendously on the show and was a waste of some of the best book material available. The Winterfell story required Sansa, Roose and LF to all sustain serious head injuries for that plot to go forward. And Stannis' decision was so contrived.

Stannis, the greatest military commander in Westeros, did the following:

1) Burns his daughter leaving himself without an heir if he dies

2) Burns his only daughter and heir alive without being told what this would actually achieve by a woman whose record with King's Blood is only 67%

3) Can't guard his stores and siege weapons against 20 frigging men

4) Is somehow surprised that sellswords might abandon him after burning his daughter and heir

5) Somehow doesn't hear 500 men abandon camp during the night, then doesn't hear half of his army abandon him during the night either

6) Somehow intends to take Winterfell in a siege without horses or siege weapons or the food necessary to starve Winterfell out

Military genius my arse.

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No, it wasn't good at all imo and in many others' as well.

Can you please elaborate on many others? Almost everybody loves the show, the ratings and the raving reviews prove it. Even here, in the den of denial, more people voted the last episode a 10 than a 1 - heck, the worst average rating of one episode is 6 and most averages are 8 and 9.

And then tell me again that there is no good dialogue in the show :lol: I even give you an example: Tyrion and Varys in episode 10 - simply brilliant.

And speaking of book!Dorne - since you are so keen on good dialogue and love Dance so much - here's one example of exemplary dialogue that was sorely missed in the show: I am Darkstar and I am of the night.

What a gem, what poetry..

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No good dialogue.

So Tyrion and Dany's table scene was not good dialogue?

Was that the dialogue with the 'break the wheel speech'? :ack:

And both Tyrion and Dany forgetting half of the Great Houses (three of which are very likely to be important in future seasons)? And Dany regressing to season 1 where she thinks that the common people of Westeros will back her? Great dialogue.

There was some great dialogue, like the scene between Stannis and Shireen at CB. Then they went and ruined that with their utterly contrived scenario of having her burnt.

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Stannis, the greatest military commander in Westeros, did the following:

1) Burns his daughter leaving himself without an heir if he dies

2) Burns his only daughter and heir alive without being told what this would actually achieve by a woman whose record with King's Blood is only 67%

3) Can't guard his stores and siege weapons against 20 frigging men

4) Is somehow surprised that sellswords might abandon him after burning his daughter and heir

5) Somehow doesn't hear 500 men abandon camp during the night, then doesn't hear half of his army abandon him during the night either

6) Somehow intends to take Winterfell in a siege without horses or siege weapons or the food necessary to starve Winterfell out

Military genius my arse.

Yes, Stannis messed up big time, no arguments against it. But his campaign and he himself were all gradually falling to pieces. Even military geniuses can mess up, history is full of them. At the end, Stannis was broken and only a husk of the man he had been before. We were shown how one bad decision piled up on the other until their combined weight crushed Stannis and saw him unprepared and helpless in front of the gates of Winterfell. Brilliantly done in my opinion.

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Can you please elaborate on many others? Almost everybody loves the show, the ratings and the raving reviews prove it. Even here, in the den of denial, more people voted the last episode a 10 than a 1 - heck, the worst average rating of one episode is 6 and most averages are 8 and 9.

And then tell me again that there is no good dialogue in the show :lol: I even give you an example: Tyrion and Varys in episode 10 - simply brilliant.

And speaking of book!Dorne - since you are so keen on good dialogue and love Dance so much - here's one example of exemplary dialogue that was sorely missed in the show: I am Darkstar and I am of the night.

What a gem, what poetry..

Firstly, the majority of Dorne is in Feast, not Dance. Secondly, one bad line doesn't mean that there isn't any good dialogue in Dorne. How about Doran's Fire & Blood speech, or Ellaria's speech about the futility of revenge? Thirdly, I don't consider Varys and Tyrion stroking each other's ego-cocks to be great dialogue. And finally, I would take Darkstar's ridiculous line over any of the televised turd that was Dorne this year.

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Can you please elaborate on many others? Almost everybody loves the show, the ratings and the raving reviews prove it. Even here, in the den of denial, more people voted the last episode a 10 than a 1 - heck, the worst average rating of one episode is 6 and most averages are 8 and 9.

And then tell me again that there is no good dialogue in the show :lol: I even give you an example: Tyrion and Varys in episode 10 - simply brilliant.

And speaking of book!Dorne - since you are so keen on good dialogue and love Dance so much - here's one example of exemplary dialogue that was sorely missed in the show: I am Darkstar and I am of the night.

What a gem, what poetry..

Who are the other people (many others, yes) who think the dialogue in the show is very poor? Read back on the thread, many people here have stated the same. One of 'those many people' is quoted here below for your convenience.

I didn't think Varys and Tyrion's dialogue was good, tbh. But it was better than 'bad pussy', I'll give you that.

Don't care much for Darkstar tbh, and don't like that line. Don't find it particularly bad either. So? There's a line in a 1000+ page book that is not brilliant.

You don't get bonus points for dodging my question and answering it with questions of your own.

Was that the dialogue with the 'break the wheel speech'? :ack:

And both Tyrion and Dany forgetting half of the Great Houses (three of which are very likely to be important in future seasons)? And Dany regressing to season 1 where she thinks that the common people of Westeros will back her? Great dialogue.

There was some great dialogue, like the scene between Stannis and Shireen at CB. Then they went and ruined that with their utterly contrived scenario of having her burnt.

Yeah, *that dialogue*. LOL

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Firstly, the majority of Dorne is in Feast, not Dance. Secondly, one bad line doesn't mean that there isn't any good dialogue in Dorne. How about Doran's Fire & Blood speech, or Ellaria's speech about the futility of revenge? Thirdly, I don't consider Varys and Tyrion stroking each other's ego-cocks to be great dialogue. And finally, I would take Darkstar's ridiculous line over any of the televised turd that was Dorne this year.

Agreed. One stupendously silly line spoken by an extremely minor character doesn't make Book-Dorne as bad as the execrable mess of Show-Dorne.

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Hey, I won't defend show!Dorne now only to highlight book!Dorne's failing - I liked neither of them as my initial statement clearly said. The show would have been well advised to cut the whole pointless affair. But the rest of season 5 is magnificent.


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