[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

[Lord Eddard]

I know what I said, Mr headteacher. And where do you surmise a liking of show!Dorne from "While season 5 had some issues - mainly Dorne that was unwisely adapted from Dance and almost as pedestrian as in the book"?

I didn't like either of them.

The only thing show!Dorne had going for it was that it was over sooner. I merely had to watch some minutes of it each episode instead of being bored to death while reading scores of pages in Feast or Dance. Hence "almost as pedestrian".

Satisfied or shall I explain it again in simpler terms?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Porne is like the black friend some racist people have. "I am objective, I didn't like Dorne!".

[WSmith84]

Hey, I won't defend show!Dorne now only to highlight book!Dorne's failing - I liked neither of them as my initial statement clearly said. The show would have been well advised to cut the whole pointless affair. But the rest of season 5 is magnificent.

Ok fair enough, you thought S5 was great. Please explain to me then the Winterfell story. Why did Roose, Littlefinger and Sansa all agree to it? Because they all had much better reasons not to agree with it than to agree with it.

Littlefinger

Leaving aside whether he actually cares about Sansa, there is no way in hell that he risks one of his most valuable pieces in such a manner. He expects Winterfell to be attacked or put under siege. Either puts Sansa in danger and the whole risk is pointless. He could simply lie to Cersei that Sansa is married to Ramsey, since she asks for no proof and he has no proof either way.

Roose

Roose gains a little credibility in marrying Ramsey to Sansa, but no much else. And seeing as there were no Northern lords even present at the wedding, I'm not sure what the point was. By doing this however, he makes an enemy of the Crown, the only people backing him. Now maybe the Crown won't send an army North, but there's plenty of other stuff they could do: cut off trade to the North, fund other Northern houses to remove the Boltons, hire assassins etc. A lot of risk for Roose for so little gain.

Sansa

Well, what does Sansa get from this marriage? A chance for revenge, apparently. But LF gives her no way to achieve this, just one tip: to make Ramsey hers (which she goes about in the worst manner possible). And this requires her to remove herself from the safety of the Vale (where she can say a word to Royce about Lysa's true fate and have LF killed) and put herself in the arms of those that murdered her brother and mother.

Winterfell was very poorly done this year and a tragic waste of brilliant source material.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Hey, I won't defend show!Dorne now only to highlight book!Dorne's failing - I liked neither of them as my initial statement clearly said. The show would have been well advised to cut the whole pointless affair. But the rest of season 5 is magnificent.

I can understand not liking book-Dorne. I can understand the feeling that seeing their POV or even having it there at the southernmost point of Westeros at all wasn't strictly necessary to the story. I liked it and felt it added to the richness and themes of the story as a whole, though it certainly isn't one of my favourite parts of ASOIAF.

The difference is that liking book-Dorne is mostly a matter of taste. It's not stupidly constructed, it has some interesting characters and there is a reason and point to it in the grand scheme of the story as a whole. Meanwhile, show-Dorne isn't really a matter of taste. It's terrible in almost every single way and appears to have no discernible point to it whatsoever.

I certainly don't agree that the rest of season 5 was even particularly good, let alone magnificent, but that's a different debate to the one about Dorne.

[Lord Eddard]

Porne is like the black friend some racist people have. "I am objective, I didn't like Dorne!".

Actually some Tyene Porne made Dorne better.

[Lord Eddard]

Winterfell was very poorly done this year and a tragic waste of brilliant source material.

How can you even say this? Ramsay was brilliant, this guy is so evil you actually despise and fear him whenever he's on stage. Theon is fantastic, too: top notch acting and believable transformation from Reek back to Theon.

Now I agree that LF's plan was stupid, actually I didn't get it at all. The Boltons on the other hand were of course glad to get their hands on the last (in their opinion) Stark, it gives their claim over the North so much more legitimacy, regardless of how many Northern lords were invited to the wedding or not. The fact - the wedding - counts.

And Sansa - why do you even ask about her? She is merely a pawn and has no say in the matter. Do you honestly think she could have refused to marry Ramsay? Never.

The end result is that we have Sansa in Winterfell. I'd take that any time instead of having her in the Vale twiddling her thumbs and doing nothing.

[kissdbyfire]

How can you even say this? Ramsay was brilliant, this guy is so evil you actually despise and fear him whenever he's on stage. Theon is fantastic, too: top notch acting and believable transformation from Reek back to Theon.

Now I agree that LF's plan was stupid, actually I didn't get it at all. The Boltons on the other hand were of course glad to get their hands on the last (in their opinion) Stark, it gives their claim over the North so much more legitimacy, regardless of how many Northern lords were invited to the wedding or not. The fact - the wedding - counts.

And Sansa - why do you even ask about her? She is merely a pawn and has no say in the matter. Do you honestly think she could have refused to marry Ramsay? Never.

The end result is that we have Sansa in Winterfell. I'd take that any time instead of having her in the Vale twiddling her thumbs and doing nothing.

I think we would never enjoy the same tv shows. :)

I find Ramsay to be an over-the-top buffoon psycho. Never, not once, did I feel he was anywhere near as creepily monstrous as his book counterpart.

Theon? Poor Alfie, this should have been his season. Instead he had less screentime and lines than Olly Crusher^TM and went from Reek to Theon off screen.

At least we can agree LF's plan is stupid.

Can't agree on the northern lords. The wedding needs witnesses, and I don't mean the kennel master's daughter who happens to be Ramsay's girlfriend. Or else how can anyone be sure Ramsay married Sansa Stark, or even if he married anyone?

[WSmith84]

How can you even say this? Ramsay was brilliant, this guy is so evil you actually despise and fear him whenever he's on stage. Theon is fantastic, too: top notch acting and believable transformation from Reek back to Theon.

Now I agree that LF's plan was stupid, actually I didn't get it at all. The Boltons on the other hand were of course glad to get their hands on the last (in their opinion) Stark, it gives their claim over the North so much more legitimacy, regardless of how many Northern lords were invited to the wedding or not. The fact - the wedding - counts.

And Sansa - why do you even ask about her? She is merely a pawn and has no say in the matter. Do you honestly think she could have refused to marry Ramsay? Never.

The end result is that we have Sansa in Winterfell. I'd take that any time instead of having her in the Vale twiddling her thumbs and doing nothing.

Well, I guess I care that supposedly intelligent characters do some thing monumentally stupid just to service the plot. And again, Roose makes the Boltons the enemy of the Crown, their only allies, in exchange for some legitimacy. Ridiculous. They removed most of Theon's stuff, the tension with the Northern Lords, the mysterious killer in Winterfell, Frey Pies and Manderly in exchange for Sansa being raped and Ramsey having a girlfriend.

Each to their own I guess. I'd rather have Sansa's small steps to becoming a political player than have her have no character development (actually character regression) in a plot that requires me to shut down my mental faculties.

It did have some good acting from Alfie Allen. Just a shame he was so wasted.

[WSmith84]

Alfie Allen should have been front and centre this season. He's a great actor and probably would have done brilliantly with Dance's material. Some confessions, prayers and pleading to the Heart Tree would have helped externalise his inner thoughts. And his line about being with Robb when he died would have been such a beautiful moment.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Liking Ramsay as "a villain" is like when I see little kids thinking Darth Vader is awesome! because of the nice costume and the force tricks. "Look, mommy! he's the bad guy!". Vader is not just "the bad guy", he's a more complicated character with a more complicated background (putting aside the terrible adaptation done in SW 1, 2 and 3). Vader is a very appealing character not because he's a "villain" but because of his characterization.

The fact the villains often end up being liked is not due to them being sympathetic. It's because they are, mostly of the time, more complex than the hero. People are naturally more inclined to do good than going around destroying galaxies and killing children. The Hero is a natural reaction: someone has to stop them. But at the end, we cheer for the hero, and we pity the villain, despite the villain represents the part of us that would like to go berserk and kick everybody's asses in one bad day.

That's why villains HAVE to be credible. The villains belong to the part of our psyche we often deny. If villains don't come from our own, we can't really feel empathy towards them, specially when we see them (or mostly of them) realise their mistakes. When a villain is just a guy doing bad things, he's a plot device or he symbolises something, but he's not a character.

That's why Ramsay is not a villain per se in ASOIAF. He's a plot device for Theon. Theon is the own "villain" in his story, and one that is now redeeming (a la Vader when he chose his own son at the end, and ended up saving himself). Ramsay in the shows is supposed to be a more complicated character, but the only thing he has is that he has been hyped and levelled up for the good guys not being able to triumph. Because if they triumph, the show is over.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Alfie Allen should have been front and centre this season. He's a great actor and probably would have done brilliantly with Dance's material. Some confessions, prayers and pleading to the Heart Tree would have helped externalise his inner thoughts. And his line about being with Robb when he died would have been such a beautiful moment.

Yep, and having Sansa there clouded the situation, as did making it essentially a showcase for Iwan Rheon.

As you said, Alfie Allen was excellent but he was wasted because that storyline became more about Ramsay than Theon or Sansa.

[kissdbyfire]

Yep, and having Sansa there clouded the situation, as did making it essentially a showcase for Iwan Rheon.

As you said, Alfie Allen was excellent but he was wasted because that storyline became more about Ramsay than Theon or Sansa.

Yes, I agree. The minute they decided to take Sansa to Winterfell, they compromised two major arcs at once: Sansa and Theon's.

And with the northern lords, there really isn't much reason to have them there in the show's version of events.

The NL are there to increase tensions, and they achieve this in several different ways. One of them is the constant threat in Theon's mind that one of them will realise Jeyne is not Arya. They are important witnesses, and none of them like the Boltons much. We readers know that if the deception is revealed, all hell is going to break loose.

That's not important anymore, since Ramsay is indeed marrying the real McCoy.

[FantasyFan73]

I dont know how anyone can like the sansa/ramsey arc

It consists of

Reek: Over the top conflicted face

Ramsey: Over the top cartoon villian face

Sansa: Over the top broken face

Repeated multiple times....

Best for me has been the wall POV this season, mireen has been ok but not great, same with kings landing, dorne has been comical but not in a good way

[hallam]

Little Finger's plan makes perfect sense if you consider the facts that show LF does not care about Sansa AT ALL and Sansa is a wanted criminal who Cersei is trying to murder.

Sansa does not have any other options. Bolton may have had a hand in murdering her mother and brother, but that was war. Sansa saw LF push her aunt out the moon door right in front of her. And like most people here she is trusting LF to be clever.

As the show demonstrated, using Sansa won Baelish the title Warden of the North. If Stannis won, Baelish wins. If Stannis loses then all Baelish has to do is to defeat Bolton's depleted forces after Bolton has called in all his banners and spent his gold to fight off Stannis.

Little Finger's plan is so clever its stupid. That is the point.

[WSmith84]

Little Finger's plan makes perfect sense if you consider the facts that show LF does not care about Sansa AT ALL and Sansa is a wanted criminal who Cersei is trying to murder.

Sansa does not have any other options. Bolton may have had a hand in murdering her mother and brother, but that was war. Sansa saw LF push her aunt out the moon door right in front of her. And like most people here she is trusting LF to be clever.

As the show demonstrated, using Sansa won Baelish the title Warden of the North. If Stannis won, Baelish wins. If Stannis loses then all Baelish has to do is to defeat Bolton's depleted forces after Bolton has called in all his banners and spent his gold to fight off Stannis.

Little Finger's plan is so clever its stupid. That is the point.

Littlefinger could just tell Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey without actually doing it. She doesn't ask for any evidence and he has none to give anyway. Putting Sansa there just risks a valuable piece in the battle or siege for Winterfell. And Sansa could have said at Moat Cailin 'er, no I don't want to marry Ramsey. And if you try to make me, I'm sure all of these Vale knights would be interested in how Lysa died.' She had plenty of choice.

Littlefinger's plan is so stupid it's actually moronic.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Littlefinger could just tell Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey without actually doing it. She doesn't ask for any evidence and he has none to give anyway. Putting Sansa there just risks a valuable piece in the battle or siege for Winterfell. And Sansa could have said at Moat Cailin 'er, no I don't want to marry Ramsey. And if you try to make me, I'm sure all of these Vale knights would be interested in how Lysa died.' She had plenty of choice.

Littlefinger's plan is so stupid it's actually moronic.

And even if he takes WF, does he really expect all the Northern Lords to be okay with him being Warden of the North? I doubt it.

Oh yeah, I forgot. There are no other Northern Lords :dunno:

[lancerman]

And even if he takes WF, does he really expect all the Northern Lords to be okay with him being Warden of the North? I doubt it.

Oh yeah, I forgot. There are no other Northern Lords :dunno:

The thing is, assuming he can oust the Bolton's almost none of the scenarios are disadvantageous to him.

With him having the Vale backing him he has the might. Outing the Bolton's who betrayed the Starks gives him favor with the Northern Lords. If Sansa is alive he can marry her and it gives him legitimacy with the North. If she is dead, he gets legitimacy with the crown and Cersie. All the while he has the Vale too and all it's power propping him up for an extended period of time to secure his hold, and he influences Robin for when he takes control and now he has a puppet (unless he somehow weasels a way into more permanent control of that). The only real drawback for him is that if he marries Sansa, and Cersie still has power, she will be furious, but she isn't going to march on a guy who has the North and Vale in the middle of winter. She doesn't have the might and the Tyrell's and Lannisters won't want to back her into a war like that. And even if she can muster the strength, by the time she has a chance to attack, years will have passed with LF securing his power and being in a perfect position to mount a defense.

[Dolorous Gabe]

The thing is, assuming he can oust the Bolton's almost none of the scenarios are disadvantageous to him.

With him having the Vale backing him he has the might. Outing the Bolton's who betrayed the Starks gives him favor with the Northern Lords. If Sansa is alive he can marry her and it gives him legitimacy with the North. If she is dead, he gets legitimacy with the crown and Cersie. All the while he has the Vale too and all it's power propping him up for an extended period of time to secure his hold, and he influences Robin for when he takes control and now he has a puppet (unless he somehow weasels a way into more permanent control of that). The only real drawback for him is that if he marries Sansa, and Cersie still has power, she will be furious, but she isn't going to march on a guy who has the North and Vale in the middle of winter. She doesn't have the might and the Tyrell's and Lannisters won't want to back her into a war like that. And even if she can muster the strength, by the time she has a chance to attack, years will have passed with LF securing his power and being in a perfect position to mount a defense.

It still seems very hazy to me. Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying. It kinda annoys me though how easy it was for LF to gain the full backing of the Vale and I'm not sure why the Vale would actually agree to give him an army to attack the Boltons and claim WF.

Added to which, what on earth have the Northern Lords been doing while all this is going on? I suppose LF could try to gain their support the way Stannis does in the books but why would they agree to LF after refusing Stannis, who did after all go to the aid of the NW in their time of need?

Edited June 20, 2015 by Dolorous Gabe

[lancerman]

Littlefinger could just tell Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey without actually doing it. She doesn't ask for any evidence and he has none to give anyway. Putting Sansa there just risks a valuable piece in the battle or siege for Winterfell. And Sansa could have said at Moat Cailin 'er, no I don't want to marry Ramsey. And if you try to make me, I'm sure all of these Vale knights would be interested in how Lysa died.' She had plenty of choice.

Littlefinger's plan is so stupid it's actually moronic.

See that's the thing he's not risking anything with Sansa being there. Sansa has one value and that is legitimacy in the North to whoever is married to her. Outside of that she doesn't matter. She doesn't matter in the Vale. She doesn't matter in KL. She's the heir to a dead house. That dead house just happens to have a name that still carries weight among Northeners.

So once Sansa is in there it gives the Bolton's something they desperately need because their reputation is shit from betraying the Starks. It gives Cersie a cause to sanction LF's Vale attack.

Lets say Sansa dies. Okay now whoever wins between Stannis and Roose is depleted and open season for LF. He wins the North. He avenges Sansa's death. He names himself Warden. The crown gives him legitimacy because Sansa is dead. So he has the North just by defacto of being backed by the most power and he isn't as hated as the Bolton's and he is now invaluable to the crown.

Lets say Sansa lives. If the Bolton's win, he ousts the Bolton's. Marries Sansa for himself. Is a big hero who defeated the people who betrayed the Starks and is married to the eldest trueborn Stark. If Cersie is pissed he has the North and Vale in the middle of winter when Cersie could never hope to retaliate for many years, by which point she will have lost the bulk of her influence. In the meantime the North and the Vale (who has been completely untouched by the war) can bring in the Riverlands and mount a campaign against the weakened Lannister/Tyrell alliance.

If Stannis wins, Stannis names her Wardness anyways. He can just marry her under the guise of shoring up an alliance between the North and the Vale. He gets control of the North. And when Cersie gets irate that he fucked her over by keeping Sansa alive, he now uses the North and the Vale to back Stannis in his campaign to take the crown. So now he's invaluable to the new king, and controls the North and has massive influence over the Vale.

There are no scenarios where LF is not in a massive position of power and has the biggest advantage.

[WSmith84]

See that's the thing he's not risking anything with Sansa being there. Sansa has one value and that is legitimacy in the North to whoever is married to her. Outside of that she doesn't matter. She doesn't matter in the Vale. She doesn't matter in KL. She's the heir to a dead house. That dead house just happens to have a name that still carries weight among Northeners.

So once Sansa is in there it gives the Bolton's something they desperately need because their reputation is shit from betraying the Starks. It gives Cersie a cause to sanction LF's Vale attack.

Lets say Sansa dies. Okay now whoever wins between Stannis and Roose is depleted and open season for LF. He wins the North. He avenges Sansa's death. He names himself Warden. The crown gives him legitimacy because Sansa is dead. So he has the North just by defacto of being backed by the most power and he isn't as hated as the Bolton's and he is now invaluable to the crown.

Lets say Sansa lives. If the Bolton's win, he ousts the Bolton's. Marries Sansa for himself. Is a big hero who defeated the people who betrayed the Starks and is married to the eldest trueborn Stark. If Cersie is pissed he has the North and Vale in the middle of winter when Cersie could never hope to retaliate for many years, by which point she will have lost the bulk of her influence. In the meantime the North and the Vale (who has been completely untouched by the war) can bring in the Riverlands and mount a campaign against the weakened Lannister/Tyrell alliance.

If Stannis wins, Stannis names her Wardness anyways. He can just marry her under the guise of shoring up an alliance between the North and the Vale. He gets control of the North. And when Cersie gets irate that he fucked her over by keeping Sansa alive, he now uses the North and the Vale to back Stannis in his campaign to take the crown. So now he's invaluable to the new king, and controls the North and has massive influence over the Vale.

There are no scenarios where LF is not in a massive position of power and has the biggest advantage.

First of all, I disagree that Sansa has only one value. She is half-Stark, half-Tully and, as far as many are concerned, the only surviving Stark. And I also think that LF wants Sansa. But let's leave those things aside.

Stannis wins, Sansa marries Ramsey

OK, so in this scenario, presumably some of the first things Stannis will want to know are: why did Sansa marry Ramsey, who got her out of KL and who arranged this marriage. If LF chooses to attempt to ally with Stannis, Stannis will want to know why LF arranged the marriage, essentially working against Stannis. If LF chooses to fight Stannis, it risks getting Sansa killed. If he wins, LF will be named Warden of the North. Perhaps he could marry Sansa, though that would make him an enemy of the Crown and I have no idea why she would agree to it.

Stannis wins, Sansa remains in Vale

Here, LF can present Sansa to Stannis (if he wishes to ally with him) and claim (truthfully) that he got Sansa out of KL. Stannis will presumably name her Wardeness of the North and LF could offer to marry her to secure an alliance between the Vale and the North. If LF wants to fight Stannis, Sansa is not at risk.

Stannis loses, Sansa marries Ramsey

Assuming that Sansa survives the battle/siege, the Boltons now have a hostage to use against the Vale when they arrive. If she survives this battle/siege against the Vale, I suppose LF could marry her to secure his Warden of the North title, although in this case she has plenty of reason to say no, and of course he'll be making himself an enemy of the Crown.

Stannis loses, Sansa stays in the Vale

Assuming LF wins, he is now Warden of the North. He could marry Sansa (and in this scenario she might be more inclined to say yes) or not.

In all scenarios possible, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't help at all. It either hinders LF's goals, or does nothing. So putting her there is a completely pointless risk that has no positive outcome.