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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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This is about the first time they have got a scene right - just like I imagine it in the book.

The full prep I could have done without, but I think the walk was done well.

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This isn't Disney.

At the start of the series, many would have considered Ned to be the main protagonist and would have rejected the idea of him dying. The story can evolve when a seemingly indispensable character is killed off.

At the start or early stages yes but three quarters of the way through and leaving no real "good guys" to support? Appreciated it's not Disney but this is out right bad story telling when you kill off the main hope. It's akin to Luke being killed in Empire strikes back rather than losing his hand.

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I know this is a little off topic but.....



As a new poster, what's the skinny on the site? What should I avoid, what are topics that have been done to death? Etc. Etc.



As for the episode/season:



Sansa at Winterfell had to be the most idiotic departure from the narrative, she didn't grow as a character, she didn't do anything vital to the North story. I guess the one thing is that she "redeemed" Theon (if that's possible).



Tyrion's story being accelerated to where he is with Dany was probably the best change



Dorne was meh. I like Bronn and Jaime together and overall I liked the characters but the story just fell flat more often than not.



Cersei/KL in my opinion is being done very well, except I wasn't a fan of Ser Robert Strong. I wish they had left more mystery to his appearance, we shouldn't be seeing grey skin and dead eyes. We all know WHO it is, but leave a little mystery there.



Jon/Wall overall this season was amazing, especially Hardhome and then it really fell flat with how they handled FTW. In the books, the Night's Watch was actually JUSTIFIED in what they did because Jon actually was breaking the NW oaths of outside interference.



I think that's all.


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You know nothing. It's a body double.

Is that speculation or something that Lena or D&D mentioned? (I'm too lazy to watch the behind the scenes stuff.) It doesn't necessarily matter, because her acting is brilliant regardless, but I'm curious.

I have yet to meet a book fan in person who actually liked ADwD. Granted I've only met probably 15 book fans in person, but all across the board, people were "ughhhhhhh" and "meh" about it. The series? Almost entirely #HYPED and way more than 15 people. I overhear people talking about it all the time.

Need to go to sleep now and forget about the fever swamp that is westeros on Sunday nights.

I really liked ADWD and AFFC (the latter slightly less). It was very different in style and pace from previous books, but I still enjoyed it. But I get that I am probably not in the majority.

I can understand that you as a show watcher only don't care about the books. I am starting to see the books & the show as separate stories. That way is the best I guess.

Agreed. I came to terms with the books and the show being separate early this season. It's helped me enjoy the show so much more.

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The couple of deaths I was referring to being moved forward from WoW to the finale are Stannis and Shireen.

I suppose that, if the Pink Letter is true, you could argue that Stannis's death already happened, at least in Jon's PoV and for the readers. But, given the Theon preview chapter, I'm assuming that we're not going to actually know that Stannis is dead until WoW.

There's no way Stannis dies early in TWoW. Dany sees visisions of him in the House of the Undying as part of her "slayer of lies" prophecy, indicating that she will have to face him at some point.

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No I kind of agree with this. But the story he has chosen to tell involves the protagonists (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Arya and presumably Sansa) surviving and playing a role in the endgame.

What role for Arya and Sansa against White Walkers? What can they do? Quietly kill one or two deads?

The only key people among them to play a role are Jon, Tyrion and Dany. And Dany and Tyrion only if they ride dragons.

Key character would the one who will unite and lead entire army against Walkers, the one who will use magic, the one who kills Night's King

Edited by solomon585858

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Based on Jon's parentage buildup this season (LF, Stannis), the revelation of his sword's capabilities vs the others, Mel fleeing Stannis back to the Wall, and the overall fact that the show would truly be hopeless with him, I refuse to believe Jon will not be back. Run on sentence....? Yes


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I don't see Dany facing Stannis or anyone, she is being set-up for a big fall that much is obvious and most likely soon after arriving in Westeros.


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I don't see Dany facing Stannis or anyone, she is being set-up for a big fall that much is obvious and most likely soon after arriving in Westeros.

Agree. She is overconfident over her abilities. She thinks that she is the only true empress, doesn't think that of any opinion other than herself. She needs to learn her lesson.

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What role for Arya and Sansa against White Walkers? What can they do? Quietly kill one or two deads?

The only key people among them to play a role are Jon, Tyrion and Dany. And Dany and Tyrion only if they ride dragons.

Key character would the one who will unite and lead entire army against Walkers, the one who will use magic, the one who kills Night's King

In GRRM's original outline of the series, he specified that Arya and her sword Needle would play a significant role beyond the Wall. I don't know what role Sansa could play, but she's currently a very valuable political pawn and could use that to her advantage. Some theories include her providing the Vale's food to soldiers.

As for the Night's King, GRRM has indicated that no such character exists in the books, which fits with the general idea that the "Great Other" Mel speaks of is just ficticious and an over-simplification.

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I don't see Dany facing Stannis or anyone, she is being set-up for a big fall that much is obvious and most likely soon after arriving in Westeros.

You're just showing how little you know about the series.

There has been substantial foreshadowing that Daenerys will lead a Dothraki invasion, oppose the Martells, depose Cersei, battle Aegon, face Stannis, and be linked in some way to Euron.

In GRRM's original outline, Dany's invasion was given the same attention as the Starks vs Lannisters and the invasion of the Others. Her invasion is going to mean something - it's not a red herring.

Edited by PatrickStormborn

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No Benjen???

Nope...it was a great red herring to suck people in. Worked well.

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It would be funny to see the face of Dragon Mother when she comes with an army in King's Landing to see a winter, empty throne and no one in town. She indeed will be able to sit on Iron Throne.


Edited by solomon585858

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By the time Dany makes it to Westeros there will be no Lannisters, Baratheons, Tyrells or Martells left.

Meanwhile what happens next for Melisandre? She's proven to be unreliable and a traitor.

Dany was supposed to invade Westeros in the fourth book (after the five-year gap). But yeah I'm sure all the characters would have been dead by that point, you're right.

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Yes I forgot about Arya..my bad..i thought they might hold it off til season 7 like the Wall. I dont think they'd go find Bran, bit the idea that she'd try to search for both. Like they'd find Rickon first and he'd tell them where Bran was planning to go. I think they'd do this story and add Davos to it because they put duh emphasis on Davos' relationship with Shireen, and no doubt he can play that pseudo father to the left over Starks. Plus, itd be good for Sansa and Theon to have someone who can fight if they're not going to have Brienne as a protector.

Sure, but I think if they're going to do the Rickon story at all, the fact that the story they'll be adapting is already Davos's story is already good enough reason to include him, so they don't need those other story-external justifications.

And, now that I think about it, they can find him story-internally, even without Wex Pyke and the Manderlys. IIRC, TV Osha and Rickon were originally heading for the Wall with Bran, but after the close call at the farm, Bran suggested they go to the Umbers. And I remember Bryan Cogman making a point of telling everyone that the TV Greatjon wasn't at the Red Wedding and is still alive and free. And they skipped the whole plot with the Greatjon's uncles on different sides at Winterfell.

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Also, booksnobs this season:

1) There won't be any "Egg, I dreamed I was old." WRONG.

2) D&D are gonna show Sophie Turner naked because they are pedophiles (borderline libel). WRONG.

3) They won't say "For the Watch". WRONG.

And still we have ridiculous frothing at the mouth fanatics here claiming D&D's entire raison d'etre is to troll the fandom. WRONG.

Thank you

The voice of reason

Jon dead, Stannis dead, Myrcella dead, Sansa and Theon dead - you don't believe all of them are !?

What about the kiss of life to jon from Benjen?

Though in the end of this season two out of three young girls are definitely dead, Shireen and Myrcella, and they are those two I cared most for, that's sad. I actually hd high hopes for both of them since in the books Myrcella is a strategic mind who masters cyvasse easily and Shireen as we all know was just wonderful. Her fate was obvious for two seasons but I have been in denial.

Show Sansa has grown to me, thanks to the actress, so in the end I will have to be content with her surviving. But I am sad, really.

Edited by Woman of War

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Her alligiance is to one thing, R'hllor. She will be loyal to whoever she thinks will be best suited to fight the others. Her fleeing Stannis in the show makes her look like a traitor, but she remained at the wall in the book.


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Jon will be back by episode two. The cast and producers are doubling down to sell the "death" because they need to try and maintain some thread of drama to it. But think about it: in what way does Jon's death at this point make any narrative sense? By the end of the series is Jon Snow's role really going to be limited to that of a POV so we can see what's going on at the Wall and in the lands beyond? He's on a classic hero's journey and right now we're at the end of the Empire Strikes Back.



Can the show leave Jon aside for a season? Not in my view. The show has ramped up the threat from the Others and it was taken up a notch this season. We need to see action there in order to see the threat start to knock on the door of Westeros and the only characters at the Wall with any standing are Mel and Davos, secondary characters. Essentially, next season is going to be about Dany resolving the situation in Meereen and then making her way in Westeros, and the realm slowly seeing that there is a threat from Beyond the Wall. For the series to wrap up in season 7 we pretty much need to Others to be ready to marching on the Wall by the end of season 6. Plus, I suspect that season 7 will be primarily about the war against the Others (which I do expect to be a war rather than one epic Helm's Deep style battle, expect defeat, despair, turning the tide, etc) so a lot of dangling plot threads will need to be resolved next season.



They could still retain the mystery surrounding Jon if they can keep Castle Black a closed set but I expect to see reports of Harrington spotted on set by the end of this year.


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