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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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They did said that Jon's Snow story is over. Jon Snow yes, but they never said anything about Jon Targaryen or whatever his new name will be.

Double

Edited by Juan_Snow

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Can we *please* talk about Dany?

Theory: She's captured (probably raped, natch) and it's awful. Tyrion releases dragons 2 and 3, tames one or both, and rescues her.....

Ugh, no more rape. Drogon will have to wake up from his nap to come rescue his mother once again. Or else we riot. :-p

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1. olly seems more close to jon in the show than what bowen marsh was in the books, so him being the last to stab jon(as obvious as it was for us book readers) is more "et tu brute" and emotional than the ides of marsh.

2. jon was gullible and didn't even try to save himself.

3. i doubt that a man that served the mad king loyaly in his most desperate hour would mutiny because of a decision he didn't like and have yet to cause any problems (we didn't even get to see wun wun crush ser patrek or a brother of the night's watch)

4. i was glad to see that sam will go to the citadel, gives me hope for more affc and adwd catching ups the show will make next season(ironborn, davos and kevan and pycelle biting the dust)

5. mel leaving stannis to go to the wall for no known reason strengthen my belief of jon's return in the books and the show, no matter what d&d and kit harrington said.

6. dorne was the worst storyline in the show's history and it took jaime's with it but at the end it adds up with myrcella's death:

it gives jaime his character development and her death will definately start a war- making dorne the show's aegon.

7. it was wise to end arya's story like affc and not like adwd.

8. tommen is the last "baratheon" and suicidal, stannis is dead and aegon is nowhere to be seen.

though i like her as a character i truly hope that the show won't have dany taking the throne when everyone's happy and then proceed to defeat the others with no one in her way, it can't be like that.

9. Robert strong was awesome, they pulled it off great as well as the walk of shame.

10. theon's actor said that jon's parantage reveal will be a luke skywalker situation which is ironic because his redemption scene was a ripoff to vader's from return of the jedi, i even hummed the force theme when he pushed myranda.

11. i was glad that tyrion stayed in meereen and didn't join jorah and daario because if a dwarf, a northerner and a pretty boy would go on an adventure to rescue someone they were meant to take care of from savage warriors it would be another ripoff.

12. i want to know how did the small council learn so fast of trant's death so they could have robert strong join the kingsguard? was the spot empty anyway since loras didn't join them after the hound deserted?

13. the entire baratheon dynasty dies before balon greyjoy.

14. everything in the north this season looked like a "what if" plot:

what if the boltons would get their hands on a real life stark?

what if stannis would take his family,davos and melisandre south?

what if jon will go to hardhome?

what if the pink letter is true?

what if jon can't warg?

15. only dead in the show:

mance, barristan, shireen, hizdahr, selyse, stannis, meryn and myrcella.

16. still alive in the show:

kevan, pycelle, oakheart and the one and only - balon fookin greyjoy.

17. if there is one thing this season proves is that asoiaf is unfilmable, i hope that the next seasons of it's simplified version called "game of thrones" would be better and follow the basic plot of the books more carefully, so the show might be a good tv show on it's own.

Edited by born amidst snow and corn

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Yeah assuming the book comes out before season 6.

That clock is ticking pretty loudly at this point. I know GRRM says he's buckling down to finish it. Hopefully he can do it.

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I have a lot of thoughts, both good and bad on the finale and the season in general.

Good

1) AFFC & Dragons were both good books, but it's hard to argue that they would have made good TV adaptions. While it wasn't perfect the show compressed a lot of events into one season and kept most of the really core pieces of the storyline intact. I know most people on here don't see it, but that could not have been an easy job.

2) Kings Landing was great, while it didn't play out exactly the same as the books, Cersei's fall was wonderfully portrayed and may have been the best part of the season. The walk of shame should get an emmy for Lena.

3) Mereen sucked less than it did in the books. You can nitpick, and I know a lot of people didn't like Tyrion meeting Dany, and there were still some weak spots. But they fast forwarded to most of the good parts from my perspective.

4) The Wall & beyond were well done. Happy to see Wun Wun, and the battle at Hard Home, while improbable made for great action. Jon dying whether it sticks or not made for a shocking end to the season.

5) Skipping the riverlands... while Dorne had it's issues having Jamie there at least expanded a storyline that needed to be. I love Jamie's arc in the book, but that was mostly his internal growth, it would not have made for good tv.

6) Skipping the Kings Moot etc. I wasn't as big of a fan of the iron islands as many, but even if I had liked it, it would have made for tough TV. How do you explain Victorian & Euron's history in a way that doesn't seem really forced. Too many new characters who go their own way right way would also turn people off.

7) Sam losing his virginity. I didn't like the rape angle, but I was happy to see Sam happy for a minute.

8) Arya, I may be in the minority but I enjoy her storyline a lot and was happy to see it kept mainly intact, probably improved. They went over the top with the Meryn Trant piece at the end, but overall very well done.

9) The entire last 3 episodes. TV is a different medium than books, I don't expect TV to be flawless, I expect it to be entertaining. If you weren't entertained by the last 3 episodes than you are probably overthinking things.

The bad

1) Dorne was all messed up. While I am a big fan of the actor who played Doran, they turned him from a character who is weak from the outside but strong and cunning on the inside, to a character who seems tough and powerful from the outside, but seems completely clueless and lost. Jamie was fine, but his character growth was stunted as compared to his arc in the books.

2) Sansa & Ramsey... I understand that it made sense to have Sansa who we actually care about in the storyline rather than fake Arya. And as far as the sexual assaults on the show went, this was one that had to stay imo. But it just doesn't make any sense to me how the real Stansa Stark can just show up and no one in Kings Landing finds out or cares. Yes, I know they are busy at the end of the season, but this seems like a major bit of treason by both the Bolton's and Little finger that someone would address.

3) Shireen. I'll be forever haunted by her screams. The way it all played out it seemed so pointless.

4) Too much sexual assault. The walk of shame was a key part of the season and had to be left in. Whoever Ramsey's wife was had to be assaulted. But those two horrible moments should have been left on their own. Why did they have to throw in Gilley's assault, and Meryn Trant. It's getting to be too much.

5) The first 3 episodes. Really slow start to the season, it wasn't bad but it definitely didn't match the intensity of previous seasons.

I give Mereen and Tyrion's arc the edge over their book arcs. I agree KL was well-done all year. Everything else...meh.

I heavily disagree on cutting the Riverlands, especially as it pertains to Jaime. The siege of Riverrun and the parlay with Blackfish would be 1000x better than anything that happened in Dorne this season (which was nothing).

I think the Wall was well-done until this episode. FTW was a mess logically speaking imo as there was no intervening event to really precipitate things. Knowing the written version of this with the Pink Letter, it's tough for me to agree with how it was done as I feel the book was far superior.

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I like the actors, the CGI, the live action replay sequences of what I read in the books. I know there is not 100% perfect adaptations but its the closest thing we will ever get since a movie or other network would fail at making this. Lastly we will get the ending that I have been waiting on since I started reading those books back in 2003.




To you that like this show, why do you like it? whats so good about it?


I honestly want to know.




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I know this probably isn't a popular idea, but I don't think Myrcella is dead. When the sand snake grabs Bronns hand I think she gives him a vile of the antidote. And is a lewd comment and a bite on the ear really enough to get Bronn frazzled. Or was the look of confusion because she slipped him the antidote? If not, I know its nitpicking, but it shows a lack of understanding of his character no matter how small of a moment. Won't really know till next season, but I'm probably reaching here.


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5. mel leaving stannis to go to the wall for no known reason strengthen my belief of jon's return in the books and the show, no matter what d&d and kit harrington said.

She did not leave for "no known reason"

She told Stannis to sacrifice Shireen and that she saw his victory.

Then most of his army leave him, and his wife kills herself.

She clearly realized that it was not Stannis` fate to burn the Bolton banners, so she goes back to what her god showed her in the past.

Remember she askes to see AA and sees only snow.

All the snow has melted where she is. Where else would she find snow? (what her god was showing her all along)...

The Wall.

So she leaves asap back to the wall realizing she has been in the wrong place all along.

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Why was Ramsey finishing off random dudes after the battle? Who's he going to flay for fun? Seems wasteful to me, and out of character for him to give dudes clean kills instead of making them suffer...strange.


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12. i want to know how did the small council learn so fast of trant's death so they could have robert strong join the kingsguard? was the spot was empty anyway since loras didn't join them after the hound deserted?

yes i think so.

There was still a spot open.

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Maybe they give him the swag bag when he comes back to shoot his funeral pyre scene.

Jon is dead and it looks like Kit isn't coming back next season. But they still have to shoot the funeral pyre scene because otherwise nobody will believe he is dead.

I have been predicting a sudden change in Jon's appearance for a couple of weeks now. Unless people are lying Jon does not come back in which case why give a damn who his parents were or he comes back and a different actor plays the part.

A resurrection scene seems inevitable. But how do D&D do it? Quite possibly in a different way to GRRM because they are very magic averse.

D&D have budget for next season. Why would they not shoot the pyre scene already? They have the actor, they have the set. That is a tell there. I am certain there is a scene and there is a reason not to have shot it already, like leaking info.

Looking at the whole plot arc of the season, I think it points to a way of selling Jon's resurrection to skeptical viewers:

* No Lady Stoneheart because having more than one unStark is stretching credibility.

* Mel's Shireen BBQ reminds viewers of the power of fire.

* Make viewers really, really hate Mel.

The last is the odd bit. Mel is surely an essential part of Jon's rebirth. Why else show her return? [That looks like a pony to me BTW, not a horse and certainly not a battle horse which is what Stannis was asking about].

But Mel is also evil incarnate. If she resurrects Jon, he is going to become evil. Unless of course, she doesn't do it willingly.

Here is what I think happens:

* Deserters from Stannis report what the red witch did to Shireen.

* Alliser Thorne tells the men to put Mel on Jon's pyre

* Mel gets the crackle crackle treatment she deserves

* Jon is reborn, life for life.

Anyone have any other use for Mel plotwise at this point?

Breathtaking :bowdown:

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There aren't supposed to be any good guys. Good guys don't conquer the world. Neither do honorable guys like Robb, or grimly duty-bound guys like Stannis, or any other possible substitute that some other fantasy stories try to pass off as goodness.

Meanwhile:

Part of the reason ASoIaF (and GoT) works is that there is no main protagonist.

The story mostly focuses on the people who could end up sitting the Iron Throne or uniting the disputing factions or weaving a spell to save the world, but don't, ultimately coming to realistic endings—usually meaning pointless and often anticlimactic. Most of the best stories in history end up a lot more like Asha's or Quentyn's than like Aragorn's, but very few fantasy writers even touch on those kinds of stories, much less focus on them, and that's part of what makes this series stand out.

Arya is different because she's obviously not going to save the world. She's a different story that originated from the same place as Robb's and Bran's more traditional stories, which serves to show how much wider the world is.

She's also even more clearly not a good guy. You can see Jon, Oberyn, or Tyrion as flawed heroes if you want, but it's hard to see her as a force for anything other than either vengeance or (less likely) dispassionate death.

Nice post. I agree with you about Arya. A fair bit of what you wrote I don't particularly either agree or disagree with it, but find it to be an intelligent take and interesting food for thought.

However, I don't agree with the part that I bolded. I think that's counter to the real world, and also (at least possibly) counter to the themes of the series. While it's certainly true that we see people seizing power through evil and dastardly deeds, those same deeds seem to predictably also be the seeds of an ultimate comeuppance. Tywin is dead because of what he did to Tyrion; Cersei humiliated because of what she tried to do to Margaery; Freys are hunted; Aerys and his family wiped out; there are plenty more examples and trust me, Ramsay will get his.

Evil-doing works in the short run, but you make people hate you and hate has staying power and consequences. Somebody like Jon or Daenerys - somebody who is smart enough to solve problems but also would rule benevolently - has a much better chance of lasting in the long run. It's something we call enlightened self-interest.

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I know this probably isn't a popular idea, but I don't think Myrcella is dead. When the sand snake grabs Bronns hand I think she gives him a vile of the antidote. And is a lewd comment and a bite on the ear really enough to get Bronn frazzled. Or was the look of confusion because she slipped him the antidote? If not, I know its nitpicking, but it shows a lack of understanding of his character no matter how small of a moment. Won't really know till next season, but I'm probably reaching here.

I think she's dead, for the following reasons.

1. She had that sweet, touching scene before it happens. Traditionally, that means death is imminent in Game of Thrones.

2. Her death is prophesied. And Maggy the Frog seems better at reading the tea leaves than Melisandre.

3. She's not that important. Probably. It's like her only function on the show is to make her mother mad with grief when she dies, which will serve to intensify the conflict between the Lannisters and the Martells.

Edited by King's Bane 🐗

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I know this probably isn't a popular idea, but I don't think Myrcella is dead. When the sand snake grabs Bronns hand I think she gives him a vile of the antidote. And is a lewd comment and a bite on the ear really enough to get Bronn frazzled. Or was the look of confusion because she slipped him the antidote? If not, I know its nitpicking, but it shows a lack of understanding of his character no matter how small of a moment. Won't really know till next season, but I'm probably reaching here.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if she lives. It's also possible Doran sent Trystane with an antidote knowing what was possible from the Sand Snakes.

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It was Benny Hill ish... Rushed. Why did all other episodes end with around 5 or 6 minutes from an hour? 10 didn't but the others did and along with the beginning flashbacks and map intro there just isn't time enough to waste 5 minutes

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My bad. I was looking at the opening of another episode by mistake. :blushing:


Edited by A Man Has Said

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Whatever they did in Dorne was like a completely different show with different source material, writers, and directors all together. It was in-your-face awful. Jon Snow/Hardhome was the redeeming quality of the season


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She did not leave for "no known reason"

She told Stannis to sacrifice Shireen and that she saw his victory.

Then most of his army leave him, and his wife kills herself.

She clearly realized that it was not Stannis` fate to burn the Bolton banners, so she goes back to what her god showed her in the past.

Remember she askes to see AA and sees only snow.

All the snow has melted where she is. Where else would she find snow? (what her god was showing her all along)...

The Wall.

So she leaves asap back to the wall realizing she has been in the wrong place all along.

i agree, and i wasn't clear:

of course for us book readers who read mel's chapter and visions that all lead obviously to jon being stannis' replacement. but from a show only point of view the reasons for her to leave are unknown, they could be guessed, but they are not for the viewers to know, or else d&d would have revealed it in a clear way since we all know that they can't do subtlety.

and if the reason for her to leave stannis was known it only strengthen my case that she'll revive jon in the show as well as the books.

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