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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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See this is one of the spots where the hate gets weird.

Nobody wanted to see Arya in a remotely sexual situation. Not the writer, not the producers and (hopefully) no one on this board.

So what do the oft hated D&D do? They create a situation that avoids putting Arya in a sexual situation, but still finds a believable way to get her in the room. So if they put characters in sexual situations that people don't like they are terrible hacks and if they deliberately avoid putting a beloved character in a sexual situation then they are terrible hacks.

I have never seen so many illogical irrational haters in one place at one time.

A few other little things.

Varys showing up was sudden but a man with a vast network of spies across two continents could probably find someone to sneak him in the back door.

Oberyn established last year that bastards are considered family in Dorne which is different than the rest of the realm. Pay attention Joncon you troll.

I agree with the person who said it's not a documentary. We don't need to see exactly how TyrJorio got out of the pit.

The things I think were kinda wacky... The odds of Brienne finding Stannis in that battle are pretty thin but it did serve the story and trying to explain it would be a waste of time.

I understand that the Dragon's horse bones and the thousands of horse prints will show that something happened there...but to me the most far fetched thing is that someone is going to find that tiny ring in that giant field. And yet, they are avoiding plot holes by setting this up for next season. It's almost like these guys are professional story tellers who know what they are doing. If only this show was an international phenomenon we could judge whether or not they are competent in their craft... oh.... wait...

Exactly. They got Arya into the room by adding the sadism. I'm not a fan of sadism in general, but I prefer that to seeing Arya fake a seduction or in any sexual situation.

I LOVED the moment Varys showed up. The fact that he popped up out of nowhere made it perfect.

People refuse to give D&D any kind of credit. They are making a really great show. It's not perfect but nothing is.

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Few words from a newcomer.



As for deaths, truth is the only confirmed ones are Ramsay's hot chick, Stannis' not-so-hot chick, and Meryn "fucking" Trant. Also it is worth noting, that the TV show started to eliminate some characters for the sake of telling the story in reasonable time frame, Barristan being an example. It's not as bad as you might think, TV series format has it's limits, they can't go on with it forever, and previous seasons took too long already (3 books in 4 seasons, now 2 books condensed into 1). So when GRRM told us that they will be characters dead in the series that didn't die in the books, he really meant get them off screen to tell more base story. I've read somehow that it was planned for 8 seasons, now I think 7 + cinematic movie finale.


Now, the "deaths":


Stannis - no death scene, no body

He might be of use for Brienne somehow, to get Sansa. Another battle maybe, with wildlings and Jon on the side? In books, Stan is known as badass battle commander. How in the seven hells he thought he could take Winterfell, even with twice as many soldiers? Listening to sexy redhead is one thing, checking with reality is another, especially if you want to be the king. Also, it Stannis won't bring down Boltons, who will? Mel saw something in that fire and I don't think that's the big battle with the Others, and I don't see any other big army nowhere near the North.

Looking forward to see how this turns out in the books.


Myrcella - no death scene, no body

Think of Doran as a Hannibal Smith - he loves when a plan comes together. In books at least. So I don't see him putting his only heir on a ship to KL without bigger plan. And I certainly don't see him putting his only heir on a ship to KL with dead Lannister onboard. So I believe he provided them with antidote himself, predicting Ellaria might do something stupid.

On the other hand, there's the prophecy that Cersei will outlive her children, so she might be dead after all. Bad for Martell's.

And where is the hottest chick of them all, Arianne? Wouldn't be better to have only 2 Sand Snakes, and little sexy Martell? This could mean she's not important in the books, or dead in the long run.


Jon Snow - basically a death scene

That happened already in the books, so no point of further discussion on it, thousands of ya did it already. They killed the boy. Now something else should be born.


One more thing: Dany

Most of you think Dothraki captured her, or something. Well I'm not aware of any Dothraki tradition to turn circles around single captive with a couple thousands man on horses. Think of it as Dothraki way of calling her "Mhysa". Remember "Stallion Who Mounts the World"? That's the sleeping beauty at the top of the hill, Drogon. And they know it. All the Dothraki in the world are at her disposal as of this moment. It will be hell of a fun to see those in battle.

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To you that like this show, why do you like it? whats so good about it?

I honestly want to know.

It's a big budget, high production value, adult, ambitious, adaptation of my favourite fantasy series. Is that enough?

Edited by Khal Boner

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I agree with Red completely. I think Jon's cliffhanger is the one I wouldn't have minded being ruined though.

Blue might be right too. But I don't even think she knows it yet lol. I think she left Stannis in fear for her life after learning of his men deserting him. Maybe after the revival she'll put the pieces together - for now, you're just ahead of the curve.

Good points, however she could have gone anywhere - back home for example. Why the wall of all places? She has no allies there except Davos who certainly isn't fond of her.

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Im a bit late , but anyone else a little dissapointed about the stabbing? For it looked like Alliser and the brothers did it out of evil and dislike of Jon , the only one who actually cried was Olly.

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To the people who think that Ellaria practically made Trystane a captive or dead - The boat that sailed out had the Martell coat of arms on its sails. Boats do not sail on their own, there's probably 50 dornish sailors about and further more, Doran would not send his son in KL without at least a dozen bodyguards. There's almost no chance that Jaime and Bronn could best all of them in order to exact revenge or capture Trystane.


Edited by Makednon

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Few words from a newcomer.

...

One more thing: Dany

Most of you think Dothraki captured her, or something. Well I'm not aware of any Dothraki tradition to turn circles around single captive with a couple thousands man on horses. Think of it as Dothraki way of calling her "Mhysa". Remember "Stallion Who Mounts the World"? That's the sleeping beauty at the top of the hill, Drogon. And they know it. All the Dothraki in the world are at her disposal as of this moment. It will be hell of a fun to see those in battle.

Welcome.

I think you are right on Dany: Why are the Dothraki there in the first place and in such numbers?

The only reason I can think of is that they have heard of the woman who rode a dragon and have come in search of her. Now they find that she is a Khalesi and a Khal in her own right.

That is the sort of thing the Dothraki can only find to be fucking awesome. They are not there to attack or imprison Danny, they are there to fall at her feet. They ride a horse but she rides a dragon.

The book makes this clear because Drogon is there. The show is setting up a cliffhanger.

It might well be that some of the deaths are not deaths. In particular

Danny: Not dead, not a prisoner

Arya: Looked likely to die but is blind

Jon: Definitely IS dead but WILL BE is another matter. Resurrection very likely.

A pattern?

Myrcella: Might be dead, might be that Bronn had been given more antidote

Stannis: Perhaps Brienne puts away her lust for revenge if Stannis will help her find Sansa

Jamie got a redemption arc. Might Stannis get one?

On the other hand, D&D can get away with Jon's resurrection, but three cliffhanger survivals?

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Wow. That may just have been the worst episode ever, in terms of how disappointing it was. For those of you who think 'hey, it hit all the plot points from the books, what's to complain about?' you clearly do not understand our frustrations. Simply hitting a plot point without sufficient emotional backing or narrative tension is meaningless.



Jon's stabbing was so lacking in the necessary tension that I just couldn't bring myself to care. And they managed to ruin one of the few characters, Alliser Thorne, that they had been doing a good job of characterising. And what did Jon do to earn this stabbing? If it was for siding with the Wildlings, why did they even let him cross in the first place? Just let him and the Wildlings starve on the Northern side of the Wall. Did Jon even tell them about Hardhome? If he did, then all of the officers are idiots. If he didn't, Jon is an idiot. And why is Olly saying 'For the Watch'? He doesn't give a shit about what Jon's decisions mean for the NW, he just cares about his dead family. If they wanted us to think Olly cared about the NW, they should have given us some scenes with that sentiment being expressed.



Ah Stannis... the most experienced and finest military commander in Westeros, and yet he is surprised that the Boltons might attack him. And he is surprised that people might desert him after burning his only daughter alive. And Stannis apparently dies. You know, I think nearly everybody, even Stannis' biggest fans, accepted that Stannis would die. What was important is how, and why. The show confirming it doesn't really affect us book readers. But the painfully contrived manner of it all just made it so disappointing and, worse, nobody cared that he died. Stannis wasn't a Joffrey or Ramsey, so I doubt anybody really felt much joy that he died. It's just a 'meh' and we're ready to move on.



Dorne... what a waste of time this has been all season. Tell me again, how this is better than either book Dorne or Jaime in the Riverlands? Also, the 'bad pussy' line genuinely made me laugh out loud at how shit that writing was.



Arya's stuff was alright, though I've never been crazy about the character.



Theon and Sansa escaping was so lacking in everything. I stopped caring about that story because I couldn't get past how utterly contrived the whole 'Sansa being there' scenario was. But the decision to put Sansa there cost everyone; Theon, Roose, LF, Sansa... There isn't a character that didn't suffer due to that decision. Considering the source material that they had available for Theon, the Northern plot is a travesty.



Cersei's stuff was genuinely great. Lena Headey killed it, and the Walk of Shame made me feel as uncomfortable as it did in the book. Great job on that. That was actually my biggest concern at the beginning of the season: that D&D might make the thing gratuitous. I long for the days when I thought that would be the worst thing they could do. Wasn't impressed that Qyburn could name a new member to the KG despite the fact that as far as everyone is aware, there are seven already. This seems like a small nitpick, but considering how often these kinds of things have happened this season, I no longer give a pass on it.



Danaerys' stuff just came across as meh to me. I was very disappointed we got no imaginary Viserys. It was alright, but again, considering the source material (Dany's final chapter) they should have done much better.



Tyrion and the others was OK, but Jesus they really lay on the 'Tyrion is great thing' so fricking heavy. And their justification for Tyrion being accepted as a ruler fell short to me, but whatever. Varys turning up was a genuine surprise.



So plot points were hit and certain lines from the books were uttered, but without the necessary build-up or context, everything fell flat. It was just a bad hour of TV.


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Don't they NEED to because white walkers?

Yes,but I've always thought that his rebirth would be very similar to Danys.

His "Death" cleverly gets him out of his vows. But, I also think the Wall actually falls, if nothing else, from corruption.

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Essentially, all the "clever" writing from the TV series boils down to the TV characters doing the exact opposite of their book counterparts.

Ellaria is actually the voice of peace. Jon sends Sam away, and Dany jumps on Drogons back and flies off to save people from his fires.

Edited by Alia of the knife

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His "Death" cleverly gets him out of his vows. But, I also think the Wall actually falls, if nothing else, from corruption.

I'm just spit ballin' here, but since the Whitewalkers have domain over Ice as it seems [and death]... I would suggest that the WW will be able to walk right through the wall. There'll a ton of dead people to ressurect once they get to the southern side of the wall [heck... theres's a ton over by Winterfell right now].

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Wow. That may just have been the worst episode ever, in terms of how disappointing it was. For those of you who think 'hey, it hit all the plot points from the books, what's to complain about?' you clearly do not understand our frustrations. Simply hitting a plot point without sufficient emotional backing or narrative tension is meaningless.

Jon's stabbing was so lacking in the necessary tension that I just couldn't bring myself to care. And they managed to ruin one of the few characters, Alliser Thorne, that they had been doing a good job of characterising. And what did Jon do to earn this stabbing? If it was for siding with the Wildlings, why did they even let him cross in the first place? Just let him and the Wildlings starve on the Northern side of the Wall. Did Jon even tell them about Hardhome? If he did, then all of the officers are idiots. If he didn't, Jon is an idiot. And why is Olly saying 'For the Watch'? He doesn't give a shit about what Jon's decisions mean for the NW, he just cares about his dead family. If they wanted us to think Olly cared about the NW, they should have given us some scenes with that sentiment being expressed.

Ah Stannis... the most experienced and finest military commander in Westeros, and yet he is surprised that the Boltons might attack him. And he is surprised that people might desert him after burning his only daughter alive. And Stannis apparently dies. You know, I think nearly everybody, even Stannis' biggest fans, accepted that Stannis would die. What was important is how, and why. The show confirming it doesn't really affect us book readers. But the painfully contrived manner of it all just made it so disappointing and, worse, nobody cared that he died. Stannis wasn't a Joffrey or Ramsey, so I doubt anybody really felt much joy that he died. It's just a 'meh' and we're ready to move on.

Dorne... what a waste of time this has been all season. Tell me again, how this is better than either book Dorne or Jaime in the Riverlands? Also, the 'bad pussy' line genuinely made me laugh out loud at how shit that writing was.

Arya's stuff was alright, though I've never been crazy about the character.

Theon and Sansa escaping was so lacking in everything. I stopped caring about that story because I couldn't get past how utterly contrived the whole 'Sansa being there' scenario was. But the decision to put Sansa there cost everyone; Theon, Roose, LF, Sansa... There isn't a character that didn't suffer due to that decision. Considering the source material that they had available for Theon, the Northern plot is a travesty.

Cersei's stuff was genuinely great. Lena Headey killed it, and the Walk of Shame made me feel as uncomfortable as it did in the book. Great job on that. That was actually my biggest concern at the beginning of the season: that D&D might make the thing gratuitous. I long for the days when I thought that would be the worst thing they could do. Wasn't impressed that Qyburn could name a new member to the KG despite the fact that as far as everyone is aware, there are seven already. This seems like a small nitpick, but considering how often these kinds of things have happened this season, I no longer give a pass on it.

Danaerys' stuff just came across as meh to me. I was very disappointed we got no imaginary Viserys. It was alright, but again, considering the source material (Dany's final chapter) they should have done much better.

Tyrion and the others was OK, but Jesus they really lay on the 'Tyrion is great thing' so fricking heavy. And their justification for Tyrion being accepted as a ruler fell short to me, but whatever. Varys turning up was a genuine surprise.

So plot points were hit and certain lines from the books were uttered, but without the necessary build-up or context, everything fell flat. It was just a bad hour of TV.

I just want to comment on the part where you said if Thorne was going to stab him why let them in? My answer to that is that there were many other Nights Watchmen out there with Jon.

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Sorry I also wanted to say that I'm a show watcher only ( granted I've read a lot about the books just not the actual books themselves ) but I was very sad thaw stannis apparently died. He was one of my favorite characters. I felt terrible that he gave so much for what he wanted and in the end it didn't matter it just wasn't meant to be I guess. But I cared a lot

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Wow. That may just have been the worst episode ever, in terms of how disappointing it was... [snipped]

Oh come on... it wasn't the worst episode ever... there was some good. The whole walk of shame was rather well done I thought, as was the reveal of Frankenstein... er, I mean The Mountain... er, I mean Ser Strong. The stabbing scene was okay, not terrible, but okay - I thought Ollie was actually quite goos there, obviously stabbing Jon for his parent's sake, but eventually covering it up with "For the Watch". The Arya arc was pretty decent, too [although rushed at the end... could have used more conversation there, but...meh].

Of course, with the good you get the bad... the battle scene at Winterfell was awful. Brienne's revenge scene was alright, but no payoff either [is Stannis dead? Tune in next year... same bat time same bat channel]. But seriously, either Stannis is dead or Brienne is [got a whole year to argue that one right?]. Either way, it'd be nice to have Brienne or her sword near the wall when the WWs attack, right? And then there's the whoel Dorne thing, which I think has been dumb since the beginning of the season.

It's far the from the worst episode ever... I think the first few episodes of this year were far worse... there were about 5 episodes which easily could have wrapped up into one, possible two, episodes. Least next year we'll get back to Bran's story.

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Thank you for recognizing that. JCRB knows full well that I didn't know, have reason to know, or actually believe s/he needed treatment and was just using an idiom that means "calm down". And I got a Warning point.

Wonder if the trolls who call D&D pedos and Pervs get warning points. They are actually serious.

You are welcome. JCRB is freaking ridiculous.

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Exactly. They got Arya into the room by adding the sadism. I'm not a fan of sadism in general, but I prefer that to seeing Arya fake a seduction or in any sexual situation.

I LOVED the moment Varys showed up. The fact that he popped up out of nowhere made it perfect.

People refuse to give D&D any kind of credit. They are making a really great show. It's not perfect but nothing is.

I have to say thanks for the support. But even more so for your motto. My gf sings the night cheese song every time we are buzzed and she needs a late night snack. Awesome reference!

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