Jump to content
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Who has the claim for the throne if Tommen dies? Assuming Myrcella is dead and Tommen not having much time left. Stannis would not get the throne, even if he was alive.



Gendry?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont know if anyone noticed... but when Jaime and co are leaving Dorne, and saying goodbyes: after Doran says I wish you a safe journey home, he then looks at Ellaria and nods to her... she instantly approaches to Myrcella and kisses her. I now ask myself if it was done with Dorans consent? Then it would seem legit when in episode 9 Ellaria bend the knee... he did tell her: I dont believe in third chances. But question stays: why would he send Trystane with them if he planned to kill Myrcella? Maybe he will blame it on Ellaria and Snakes and tell to Iron Throne that 4 of them are outlaws and will be hunted down(I presume that they are leaving Dorne for some other mission that Doran gave them so it all will be convinient for him). Then Trystane will be out of harms way, especially for two reasons: Jaime gave his word to Doran that he will take Oberyns place in small council and second... boy have no clue about this plan and loved Myrcella for real. In this way, 1. he have some revenge for Elia, her childen and Oberyn and 2. his man on the place of power(what are his intentions for politics of KL we have yet to see). It may be out of character for book Doran... but when we see how they butchered other characters it can easily be truth. Personally, I can accept this outcome... everything is better then Ellaria going rouge and having no Dorans plan for revenge from books. But, knowing how simple D&D are, it is probably out of they reach to think of something like this :)


Edited by TheWinterHasCometh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those who keep harping on this being the worst show in this season or the worst season, it really is not at all. It has some great points. Was this the best show of all season? No. But is it the worst? No. This season is one of the best for several reasons, one including dragon riding.



If you don't like the show let's see you do better with the limitations of the budget. I can tell you that they worked their butts off and they did a good job. Let's see you create something as good onscreen.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those who keep harping on this being the worst show in this season or the worst season, it really is not at all. It has some great points. Was this the best show of all season? No. But is it the worst? No. This season is one of the best for several reasons, one including dragon riding.

If you don't like the show let's see you do better with the limitations of the budget. I can tell you that they worked their butts off and they did a good job. Let's see you create something as good onscreen.

Ah the old budget excuse. How does a budget excuse generally poor writing?

And I might accept that argument easier if they hadn't spent so much on 600 face models that nobody could actually see.

Or Dorne? All those fancy european shots which were worthless, because everything surrounding it was poor.

Edited by WSmith84

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those who keep harping on this being the worst show in this season or the worst season, it really is not at all. It has some great points. Was this the best show of all season? No. But is it the worst? No. This season is one of the best for several reasons, one including dragon riding.

If you don't like the show let's see you do better with the limitations of the budget. I can tell you that they worked their butts off and they did a good job. Let's see you create something as good onscreen.

I agree. Even a mediocre season of game of thrones is excellent television. My one complaint that can probably be a blanket statement for all the characters was that it felt a bit rushed. This is probably the outcome of condensing 2 books into one. But to be honest I'm glad that they did because from what I have read, it's the weakest 2 books in the series. It was necessary for the series but it also wasn't the greatest season. However it certainly had its high points. I have to say though that if Jon doesn't come back I'm gunna be really really depressed. It would make zero sense in the story and all the great foreshadowing and character development would be for nothing? All the other deaths propelled the plot in their own way but to kill Jon off now would be completely devastating to the story, IMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those who keep harping on this being the worst show in this season or the worst season, it really is not at all. It has some great points. Was this the best show of all season? No. But is it the worst? No. This season is one of the best for several reasons, one including dragon riding.

If you don't like the show let's see you do better with the limitations of the budget. I can tell you that they worked their butts off and they did a good job. Let's see you create something as good onscreen.

Are you actually arguing against other people's opinions using your own opinions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. Even a mediocre season of game of thrones is excellent television. My one complaint that can probably be a blanket statement for all the characters was that it felt a bit rushed. This is probably the outcome of condensing 2 books into one. But to be honest I'm glad that they did because from what I have read, it's the weakest 2 books in the series. It was necessary for the series but it also wasn't the greatest season. However it certainly had its high points. I have to say though that if Jon doesn't come back I'm gunna be really really depressed. It would make zero sense in the story and all the great foreshadowing and character development would be for nothing? All the other deaths propelled the plot in their own way but to kill Jon off now would be completely devastating to the story, IMO

Feast and Dance may have been weak books, but they also had some truly fantastic material in them. The Winterfell arc is probably George's best writing, with a plot full of tension, mystery, great characters, great lines and emotion. The show reduced this to sheer shock value and it came at the cost of all the characters' characterisations. Littlefinger, Roose, Sansa, Theon... All of their characters suffered because of the decision to put Sansa in Winterfell. And the show Winterfell arc isn't even very good on its own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those who keep harping on this being the worst show in this season or the worst season, it really is not at all. It has some great points. Was this the best show of all season? No. But is it the worst? No. This season is one of the best for several reasons, one including dragon riding.

If you don't like the show let's see you do better with the limitations of the budget. I can tell you that they worked their butts off and they did a good job. Let's see you create something as good onscreen.

So your argument is "This is one of the best seasons because Dragon riding". I suspect you think it was also the best season because "WHITE WULKERS BATTLE!".

Budget affects things like casting, CGI usage, locations etc.

Budget doesnt affect poor dialogue that contradicts itself two episodes later (or seasons earlier for that matter). Budget doesnt dictate pure and simple charachter butchering. Budget doesnt affect writing, unless your budget can only afford high school graduate level story writers.

This season was poor because the timing of it was incredibly rushed. The pacing was off from the very start. Ratings were plumeting up till Episode 8 because they spent all their time in Dorne with horrible dialogue then Episode 8 came and HOLY SHIT GOTTA CRAM 2 BOOKS WORTH INTO 3 EPISODES!!

Whilst AFFC and ADWD should have been one book and condensed down a bit, the TV show shouldnt have been and didnt need to be. We WASTED so much time on plots that didnt go anywhere and had zero pay off. Thats not good use of your 10 hours a year.

Edited by Misnthropia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way the TV version is going maybe Ramsay will sit on the Throne, just for a minute though, before the WW skewers his nutsack. Now that is worth waiting for. GRRM being the perve he is will have the children of the forest doing something nasty before it's all over. I want book 6 to come out before the GoT season 6 so I can read the reviews in order to make a decision on whether to stay interested. Seems I read about 7000+ pages of a story and wasted my time.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who has the claim for the throne if Tommen dies? Assuming Myrcella is dead and Tommen not having much time left. Stannis would not get the throne, even if he was alive.

Gendry?

That's a good question. Most likely Cersie and Margeary fight over the right to be queen in the absence of any make heirs. If they would not allow a female to claim the crown, the closest male relatives to Tommen would be Jamie and Tyrion. Jamie has his KG vows. So maybe it's technically Tyrion (which would make a lot of people happy). Otherwise on the Baratheon side you have no one and even if you go back to the Targs and there is Dany.

Realistically I think at this point Mace would just force Marg in the spot with his army and probably try to marry her off to Robin for the Vale, someone in Dorne. Actually I don't think there are any good suitors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im a bit late , but anyone else a little dissapointed about the stabbing? For it looked like Alliser and the brothers did it out of evil and dislike of Jon , the only one who actually cried was Olly.

It has already been established that support for Jon is divided among the NW. Thorne's hatred for Jon has been pretty consistent throughout the series.

I just want to comment on the part where you said if Thorne was going to stab him why let them in? My answer to that is that there were many other Nights Watchmen out there with Jon.

On this:

Why did they show up at castle black on the north side of the wall?

I'm willing to assume some inlet or natural harbor that made it more logical for the fleet to drop them off north of the wall and then make the walk to Castle black on the north side, as opposed to sailing to East Watch and walking the rest of the way. The "map" is not necessarily cannon in the show and (for all the discussion about it) this is trivial detail that doesn't demand a lot of exposition. The point of that scene was to show how Jon was alienating the watch. That's the meat of the scene.

Why let him through only to kill him later?

A mutiny is not something that you can just pull off. At the time Jon returns, he probably still has supporters. He is also still the LC after all. However, I think the critical element here is Stannis. I think it's common knowledge that Stannis respects Jon. Stannis is also notoriously inflexible when it comes to dealing with criminals. At the time Jon returns, Stannis is still alive and his army is still intact. How would Stannis react to a mutiny at the wall? What if they do the deed and he decides to punish the Mutineers? What if he wins the battle and and occupies the north? Hard to say, but it might be enough to give the would-be mutineers some pause.

All that changes when Mel arrives (by herself) at the wall. Even if they didn't receive word that Stannis' forces had been crushed, anyone eavesdropping on the argument between Davos & Jon and then watching the body language in the following conversation between Davos, Jon & Mel would strongly suspect that Stannis was no longer part of the equation.

Why does she return to the wall? Where else is she going to go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get the impression that some people here think they have wargged into GRRM's desk cactus and were able to see what book 6 entails.

I understand arguing what's the differences of the show and already released book material are. But I see a lot of folks speculated the future of this story and using their speculation as fact.

The Riverlands and LSH omission are probably my biggest difference disappointment thus far. Going forward, it'll be interesting. KL is completely vulnerable. Lannisters hanging on by a thread, Martell's a mystery, Boltons sitting ducks for the Other's/Bran and Jon, LF and Greyjoys stuck running to whoever they think is going win, and Dany with a new army of Dothraki. I can't see this ending in two seasons of 10 episodes a piece.

Edited by BranDaMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get the impression that some people here think they have wargged into GRRM's desk cactus and we're able to see what book 6 entails.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has already been established that support for Jon is divided among the NW. Thorne's hatred for Jon has been pretty consistent throughout the series.

On this:

Why did they show up at castle black on the north side of the wall?

I'm willing to assume some inlet or natural harbor that made it more logical for the fleet to drop them off north of the wall and then make the walk to Castle black on the north side, as opposed to sailing to East Watch and walking the rest of the way. The "map" is not necessarily cannon in the show and (for all the discussion about it) this is trivial detail that doesn't demand a lot of exposition. The point of that scene was to show how Jon was alienating the watch. That's the meat of the scene.

Why let him through only to kill him later?

A mutiny is not something that you can just pull off. At the time Jon returns, he probably still has supporters. He is also still the LC after all. However, I think the critical element here is Stannis. I think it's common knowledge that Stannis respects Jon. Stannis is also notoriously inflexible when it comes to dealing with criminals. At the time Jon returns, Stannis is still alive and his army is still intact. How would Stannis react to a mutiny at the wall? What if they do the deed and he decides to punish the Mutineers? What if he wins the battle and and occupies the north? Hard to say, but it might be enough to give the would-be mutineers some pause.

All that changes when Mel arrives (by herself) at the wall. Even if they didn't receive word that Stannis' forces had been crushed, anyone eavesdropping on the argument between Davos & Jon and then watching the body language in the following conversation between Davos, Jon & Mel would strongly suspect that Stannis was no longer part of the equation.

Why does she return to the wall? Where else is she going to go?

Why on Earth would Jon be less popular after coming back since he had been proven right? Did Jon simply not tell everyone about the army of the dead at Hardhome? Did all 15? NW men, including Ser Alliser (bye bye my praise for how they wrote his character), think Jon and the other NW members who came back from HH were fretting needlessly? Jon went to HH and killed a White Walker in single combat, discovering another of their weaknesses. Jon should be a bloody legend amongst even the men who hated the wildlings the most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just spit ballin' here, but since the Whitewalkers have domain over Ice as it seems [and death]... I would suggest that the WW will be able to walk right through the wall. There'll a ton of dead people to ressurect once they get to the southern side of the wall [heck... theres's a ton over by Winterfell right now].

I guess it depends on whatever magic that was used to bind the Wall, as we'll as WF.

The term, " there must always be a Stark in WF," I think probably has more to do than family motto.

Interesting the name also, Winter FELL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Varys' ability to get in the pyramid. My friend Ira Winkler is ex-NSA and he does physical penetration testing. He can get into pretty much anywhere without much hassle. When they opened up a new airport terminal here, he did pen testing and got in on opening day. He has also penetrated numerous sites that are purportedly top secret. That is his job.

I am not anywhere near as good but I can pass fairly easily despite having a foreign accent. If I want to get in a building I buy a pack of cigarettes and hang outside the fire door.

Varys was not in the pyramid. Tyrion was in that public area where Dany crucified the masters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why on Earth would Jon be less popular after coming back since he had been proven right? Did Jon simply not tell everyone about the army of the dead at Hardhome? Did all 15? NW men, including Ser Alliser (bye bye my praise for how they wrote his character), think Jon and the other NW members who came back from HH were fretting needlessly? Jon went to HH and killed a White Walker in single combat, discovering another of their weaknesses. Jon should be a bloody legend amongst even the men who hated the wildlings the most.

He's not necessarily less popular. It isn't clear from the show (and it's pretty unlikely in the books) that the watch is unified in support of the Mutiny. More likely it's a faction within the watch.

Whether he killed an other at HH or not, you still have these guys who think letting the wildlings through is a colossal mistake and that Jon is not that man to be leading them. That he's a traitor and the son of a traitor. That he loved a Wildling woman, that he's too friendly with the free folk, etc. These guys are blinded by their hatred of the Willings. The sight of seeing Wildlings and Giants coming through their gates would only reinforce that belief.

Remember that in ADWD, Jon makes the argument (to Bowen Marsh I think) that they need the Wildings on their side (literally and figuratively) because if they leave them to fend for themselves, they's just be more zombies to fight later. Marsh's reply is let them die and the watch can hide behind their wall. Again and again, he just can't see it any other way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×