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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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Because then the entire premise of burning Shireen due to the harsh snow on the arduous, lengthy journey from Castle Black to Winterfell (harder when you lose all your horses oh wait Mel found one) that has taken 9 episodes turns into "Just coz".

I am happy to accept things need to change for show situations. But they need to make sense.

Varys, yeah look I dont want to see Varys treking around Essos. Or Gendry rowing his damn boat. But if youre going to make out that the Baratheon army had to sacrifice the Kings daughter in order to make the trek from A to B due to how long the ride is/how much snow there is/how harsh the terrain is/how there are no horses DONT SHOW ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ARMY MAKE THE TRIP IN 30 SECONDS ON A FUCKING HORSE.

NM. What Khal Boner said.

Edited by Spilt Pea Soup

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You've yet to explain why Mel's arrival is problematic. The snow melted. That was part of the opening shot with icicles melting. The cavalry left, but she had her horse. You took him literally, rather than interpreting it in context. Just picking at stupid little things now. Trolls gonna troll. Go to the book forum and complain about the mare that became a stallion in the books. It's *so* very important to the enjoyment of the series.


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You've yet to explain why Mel's arrival is problematic. The snow melted. That was part of the opening shot with icicles melting. The cavalry left, but she had her horse. You took him literally, rather than interpreting it in context. Just picking at stupid little things now. Trolls gonna troll. Go to the book forum and complain about the mare that became a stallion in the books. It's *so* very important to the enjoyment of the series.

Using my imagination I imagine he took a short cut cross country and she went on the Kings road. Problem solved.

Edited by Khal Boner

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You've yet to explain why Mel's arrival is problematic. The snow melted. That was part of the opening shot with icicles melting. The cavalry left, but she had her horse. You took him literally, rather than interpreting it in context. Just picking at stupid little things now. Trolls gonna troll. Go to the book forum and complain about the mare that became a stallion in the books. It's *so* very important to the enjoyment of the series.

C'mon! Mel left before the march. Do we really know how long it took to walk from the Stannis camp to Winterfell? Mel coulda had plenty of time to get back to CB before Stannis arrived at Winterfell and the battle was finally over. As for her having a horse, well, maybe she was part of organizing the desertion. She didn't want Stannis taking back Winterfell, she sees Jon Snow taking Winterfell. So she had a horse on standby knowing the deserters would take all the horses. As for the presumably large snow drift on the side of the wall, Mel simply missed a spot:-)

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You've yet to explain why Mel's arrival is problematic. The snow melted. That was part of the opening shot with icicles melting. The cavalry left, but she had her horse. You took him literally, rather than interpreting it in context. Just picking at stupid little things now. Trolls gonna troll. Go to the book forum and complain about the mare that became a stallion in the books. It's *so* very important to the enjoyment of the series.

All the horses are gone. Stannis and his men are seen walking to Winterfell.

Mel is on a horse. So, "all" the horses except one? LOL.

You think "all" meant something else? If so, why wasn't anyone in Stannis army riding a horse? Everybody walking.

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Bookpurists don't seem to understand how wind blown snowdrifts work. Spoiler alert: they don't melt quickly.

Oh trust me, I'm not hung up on snow drifts, a horse that a Red Priestess had on standby or space time continuums in a world where a man is only alive because tree roots are growing through him...lol. My biggest beef right now is that Ghost is missing.

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For those who keep harping on this being the worst show in this season or the worst season, it really is not at all. It has some great points. Was this the best show of all season? No. But is it the worst? No. This season is one of the best for several reasons, one including dragon riding.

If you don't like the show let's see you do better with the limitations of the budget. I can tell you that they worked their butts off and they did a good job. Let's see you create something as good onscreen.

While this season was my least favorite, it also had a lot of good moments in it, especially these last 3 episodes.

It's nice to see someone not hating on D&D; they do quite a good job with what they have to work with.

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It did bug me that ghost is never around. Someone there must own a dog. Real dogs will never lay more than five feet away and refuse to stop looking at you. They definitely dont just forget you exist for months at a time. Summer is always with Bran except to hunt. Shaggydog is like inches from Rickon at any random time. That's what real dogs are like. If those two ever die, you'll need to get through the wolf first. Bran would have been dead 30 times by now if it weren't for Summer.

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It did bug me that ghost is never around. Someone there must own a dog. Real dogs will never lay more than five feet away and refuse to stop looking at you. They definitely dont just forget you exist for months at a time. Summer is always with Bran except to hunt. Shaggydog is like inches from Rickon at any random time. That's what real dogs are like. If those two ever die, you'll need to get through the wolf first. Bran would have been dead 30 times by now if it weren't for Summer.

I wanted to see where Ghost was too; my family who watch the series but haven't read the books were questioning that part today. In the books Ghost is chained up because the Night's Watch men were complaining about a direwolf strolling around everywhere, right? More or less?

But they don't explain that in the show, so it's like Ghost just wandered off. Which he's done before, he is a bit different than the other direwolves, but he's still close to Jon. We should've had a shot of him in a kennel or something.

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Too similar to Robb Starks death scene.

I thought of that too after I posted... Everyone would know right away something bad's going to happen if Jon ties of Ghost. Never works out to chain up your fantasy pets in this series.

Still, would've been nice to see where he was, or had a scene a few episodes ago with Jon chaining him up or something.

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Funny thing is that "book purists" have stopped making comparisons between show and books like four episodes ago and only focussed on the show's own inconsistencies and it's still lacking.

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Thoughts while watching:



- One could argue that the anticlimactic ending for Stannis's campaign was appropriate; the man sacrifices his only child for the promise of a glorious victory, only to face a humiliating and ignoble defeat. But the campaigns of Renly, Theon, and Robb all met rather inglorious ends, Theon's especially. Those downfalls were handled in a much more dramatically satisfying way. This wasn't anticlimatic in a tragic or ironic way that made for great television; it was anticlimatic in a poorly written, lazily executed fashion that invites frustration with the showrunners. And there are two other problems with this plotline:


1. As an adaptation of pre-existing material, this is one of the biggest departures the show has made, bigger (I would argue) than anything Peter Jackson did with LOTR or even The Hobbit. I've pointed out before that GRRM has asked D&D to change character names for far less than this.


2. The fact that it's such a radical departure is not in itself a fault; the departure could be forgiven, and enjoyed as comparable or even superior to the source material - if it had an equivalent level of interest and drama to the source. This did not, and I'm not even thinking of just Stannis anymore. Roose and Ramsay sitting around Winterfell talking about potentially troublesome bannermen isn't anywhere near as intense as Roose and Ramsay trapped in Winterfell by ever-growing mountains of snow and surrounded by obviously hostile bannermen, at least one of whom is engaged in sabotage. Making Ramsay and Roose - two sociopaths, and not particularly fascinating ones if I'm being frank - focal characters of the Winterfell scenes is much less interesting than focusing in on Theon, or on Sansa (who could have been better utilised in her modified story). And to go back to Stannis - how is his walking in a straight line across an open field (displaying none of that great military command that was talked up) after being abandoned by sellswords a more fascinating scenario than leaving him caught amongst his fanatic southroners, hardy and vengeful Northerners, his enemy at Winterfell, traitors in the midst of his Northern host, and Bravosi bankers?



I've seen many people claim that D&D hate Stannis. I don't go that far (I do think their claim that he'd "undoubtedly" make a terrible king is presumptuous at the least). But I think it's safe to say that Stannis Baratheon, like Cersei Lannister, is a character that D&D either fundamentally misunderstood, or never cared to understand in the first place, because they preferred to use that slot in the story for something of their own contrivance. And unfortunately for anyone who was moved, invested, or even mildly interested in Stannis's story, D&D's own contrivance proved far inferior to the source material.



- If Selyse's reversal last episode was unconvincing, then Mel's instant loss of faith and abandonment of Stannis was very unconvincing. A woman that self-deluded changes her mind and runs away because the sellswords (that were Davos's idea in the first place) ran off?



- Enjoyed the Arya material very, very much, but there are two points bugging me: how did Arya go blind, and why did one of the FM have to kill himself? Couldn't they just kill Arya for betraying the order, or throw her out?



- No strong thoughts one way or the other about Dany's scene.



- Building up Daario was a strange decision that I've actually come to appreciate and enjoy, but it was very strange to have him playing the intellectual and strategist.



- I've complained about Grey Worm/Missandei a lot, but I'm rather impressed at how restrained D&D proved themselves at pursuing that plotline.



- It's obvious that the direwolves prove too much of a budgetary/technical hassle to be featured as much as they are in the books, but that robs the story of a significant element. My solution would have been to turn the direwolves in to plain wolves, and just say that there are no wolves left south of the Wall 'til Robb and Jon find the pups. You could get them into more scenes more easily that way.



- Reversing whose idea it is for Sam to become a maester. On the one hand, that scene had good dialogue and solid performances. On the other, I think that reversal takes away from Jon's growth into command and from his relationship with Sam.



- So, Myrcella is fine with her parentage. That's interesting. The fact that the scene is executed in a way that suggests we're meant to be on her side on this is very, very, very very disturbing.



- Cersei. How many times can I repeat it, but: miss the batsh*t crazy one from the books. With Jon dead and Stannis out of commission at the very least (I do think there's a slim chance Brienne didn't kill him, if only because of when they chose to cut away), I have a nagging fear that a good chunk of next season might as well be named "The Whitewashed Lannister Hour."



- Dorne. I won't say it was pointless, as I'm sure there will be a payoff next season, but it was stupid. Incredibly stupid. From beginning to end, probably the single worst-executed storyline in the entire series.



- Shock and surprise, Olly kills Jon. And, shock and surprise, it was underwhelming. Another significant point of departure that could have been fine, if it measured up to what was in the books. It didn't. And it further reinforces my feeling that the Shireen storyline was not worth the time it took away from Jon.



Overall thoughts on the season: most of my notes on each episode were negative, but I think this season was in some key respects an improvement over the last one. It felt far less padded, and more events of note happened more frequently throughout. But it's easily the least faithful to the source material, and in nearly every case, the departures were for the worse IMO. Significant events (Shireen's burning, Jon's death, Stannis's defeat, others) may have had build-up over several episodes, but when it came time to do the deed, the scenes were rather perfunctory and tossed off. None of them were executed with the skill of the RW or Ned's execution.



My chief complaint goes back to a comment D&D made before the premiere: how they didn't want to include a lot of new characters because they "didn't want to shortchange Arya's story for someone we've never met." You may not have been willing to shortchange Arya for new characters, but you were willing to shortchange Bran to get that screentime freed up for your own ideas; you were willing to shortchange Dany by rendering her the least interesting character in her own location; you were willing to shortchange the source material for Cersei and Stannis to push something of your own making; you were willing to shortchange Theon to spend more time with his psychotic captors and a jealous bitch; and you were willing to shortchange Jon, and the whole Northern plotline, to throw away screentime on children.


Edited by Fisch

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Funny thing is that "book purists" have stopped making comparisons between show and books like four episodes ago and only focussed on the show's own inconsistencies and it's still lacking.

This.

I dont care anymore that the show isnt in line with the books (hell I only recently found the books). I care the the TV show this season was 8 Episodes of Round-a-bout story lines with no pay off. Inconsistencies within their own story telling, plot points that make no sense and terrible dialogue; "Bad Pussy". When Dorne couldnt get any more ridiculous, Bad Pussy. Then we get to the GoT Episode 9 Hype Fest. 2 episodes of "Lets shoe horn as much book content in no matter how much if doesnt fit at this point".

Even my Unsullied friends and family are picking up errors and pointing out dialogue and plots that arent in line with the universe.

Edited by Misnthropia

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Thoughts while watching:

- One could argue that the anticlimactic ending for Stannis's campaign was appropriate; the man sacrifices his only child for the promise of a glorious victory, only to face a humiliating and ignoble defeat. But the campaigns of Renly, Theon, and Robb all met rather inglorious ends, Theon's especially. Those downfalls were handled in a much more dramatically satisfying way. This wasn't anticlimatic in a tragic or ironic way that made for great television; it was anticlimatic in a poorly written, lazily executed fashion that invites frustration with the showrunners. And there are two other problems with this plotline:

1. As an adaptation of pre-existing material, this is one of the biggest departures the show has made, bigger (I would argue) than anything Peter Jackson did with LOTR or even The Hobbit. I've pointed out before that GRRM has asked D&D to change character names for far less than this.

2. The fact that it's such a radical departure is not in itself a fault; the departure could be forgiven, and enjoyed as comparable or even superior to the source material - if it had an equivalent level of interest and drama to the source. This did not, and I'm not even thinking of just Stannis anymore. Roose and Ramsay sitting around Winterfell talking about potentially troublesome bannermen isn't anywhere near as intense as Roose and Ramsay trapped in Winterfell by ever-growing mountains of snow and surrounded by obviously hostile bannermen, at least one of whom is engaged in sabotage. Making Ramsay and Roose - two sociopaths, and not particularly fascinating ones if I'm being frank - focal characters of the Winterfell scenes is much less interesting than focusing in on Theon, or on Sansa (who could have been better utilised in her modified story). And to go back to Stannis - how is his walking in a straight line across an open field (displaying none of that great military command that was talked up) after being abandoned by sellswords a more fascinating scenario than leaving him caught amongst his fanatic southroners, hardy and vengeful Northerners, his enemy at Winterfell, traitors in the midst of his Northern host, and Bravosi bankers?

I've seen many people claim that D&D hate Stannis. I don't go that far (I do think their claim that he'd "undoubtedly" make a terrible king is presumptuous at the least). But I think it's safe to say that Stannis Baratheon, like Cersei Lannister, is a character that D&D either fundamentally misunderstood, or never cared to understand in the first place, because they preferred to use that slot in the story for something of their own contrivance. And unfortunately for anyone who was moved, invested, or even mildly interested in Stannis's story, D&D's own contrivance proved far inferior to the source material.

- If Selyse's reversal last episode was unconvincing, then Mel's instant loss of faith and abandonment of Stannis was very unconvincing. A woman that self-deluded changes her mind and runs away because the sellswords (that were Davos's idea in the first place) ran off?

- Enjoyed the Arya material very, very much, but there are two points bugging me: how did Arya go blind, and why did one of the FM have to kill himself? Couldn't they just kill Arya for betraying the order, or throw her out?

- No strong thoughts one way or the other about Dany's scene.

- Building up Daario was a strange decision that I've actually come to appreciate and enjoy, but it was very strange to have him playing the intellectual and strategist.

- I've complained about Grey Worm/Missandei a lot, but I'm rather impressed at how restrained D&D proved themselves at pursuing that plotline.

- It's obvious that the direwolves prove too much of a budgetary/technical hassle to be featured as much as they are in the books, but that robs the story of a significant element. My solution would have been to turn the direwolves in to plain wolves, and just say that there are no wolves left south of the Wall 'til Robb and Jon find the pups. You could get them into more scenes more easily that way.

- Reversing whose idea it is for Sam to become a maester. On the one hand, that scene had good dialogue and solid performances. On the other, I think that reversal takes away from Jon's growth into command and from his relationship with Sam.

- So, Myrcella is fine with her parentage. That's interesting. The fact that the scene is executed in a way that suggests we're meant to be on her side on this is very, very, very very disturbing.

- Cersei. How many times can I repeat it, but: miss the batsh*t crazy one from the books. With Jon dead and Stannis out of commission at the very least (I do think there's a slim chance Brienne didn't kill him, if only because of when they chose to cut away), I have a nagging fear that a good chunk of next season might as well be named "The Whitewashed Lannister Hour."

- Dorne. I won't say it was pointless, as I'm sure there will be a payoff next season, but it was stupid. Incredibly stupid. From beginning to end, probably the single worst-executed storyline in the entire series.

- Shock and surprise, Olly kills Jon. And, shock and surprise, it was underwhelming. Another significant point of departure that could have been fine, if it measured up to what was in the books. It didn't. And it further reinforces my feeling that the Shireen storyline was not worth the time it took away from Jon.

Overall thoughts on the season: most of my notes on each episode were negative, but I think this season was in some key respects an improvement over the last one. It felt far less padded, and more events of note happened more frequently throughout. But it's easily the least faithful to the source material, and in nearly every case, the departures were for the worse IMO. Significant events (Shireen's burning, Jon's death, Stannis's defeat, others) may have had build-up over several episodes, but when it came time to do the deed, the scenes were rather perfunctory and tossed off. None of them were executed with the skill of the RW or Ned's execution.

My chief complaint goes back to a comment D&D made before the premiere: how they didn't want to include a lot of new characters because they "didn't want to shortchange Arya's story for someone we've never met." You may not have been willing to shortchange Arya for new characters, but you were willing to shortchange Bran to get that screentime freed up for your own ideas; you were willing to shortchange Dany by rendering her the least interesting character in her own location; you were willing to shortchange the source material for Cersei and Stannis to push something of your own making; you were willing to shortchange Theon to spend more time with his psychotic captors and a jealous bitch; and you were willing to shortchange Jon, and the whole Northern plotline, to throw away screentime on children.

:bowdown:

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I'm disappointed in the lack of Ghost as well, but in the show we have no idea why he's not around. In the book he was tied up or caged or what have you because of those people who were scared of him or something like that. In the show, if he were tied up we would most certainly know. Maybe this is an indication that he arrives at the scene somehow in both universes, albeit after stabby stab.



Also, wasn't Jon on a horse in the stabby book scene? Can't remember.


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