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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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On that note, there really should be a non-detractor thread for those of us (15 million strong) who actually like the show and have more to discuss than how much D&D messed up.

I take this as the thread for those that have read the book and watch the show to be able to discuss both. Opposite opinions are fair game, but some people do take it too far (both sides). Isn't the positive nitpick thread for those of you that find it blasphemous to seriously critisize the show, just as us rant and ravers have our safe place?

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What was the point of the Cersei flashback in episode 1? It was never referenced or expanded upon, and, as far as I can tell, played no part in the story. I didn't like it in the books, so I was hoping they would cut it out, especially as they haven't gone with the crazy Cersei route.

Of all the flashbacks they could've done it does seem a bit unnecessary. So we know her children will die and she was a bitch from an early age I suppose. Doesn't seem to really be any point to it.

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What was the point of the Cersei flashback in episode 1? It was never referenced or expanded upon, and, as far as I can tell, played no part in the story. I didn't like it in the books, so I was hoping they would cut it out, especially as they haven't gone with the crazy Cersei route.

I rewatched the episode because I wanted to give the Arya scenes another lookover and my God, Dorne is actually worse on a second viewing. Why the hell does Ellaria wait until her nose starts to bleed before taking the antidote? I'll tell you why: because they wanted a cool TV shot, even though its a very stupid thing to do. I don't care how knowledgable you are about poison, you don't wait until things almost get to the point of no-return before taking the antidote.

And no military commander, no matter how stupid, would do what Stannis did in this episode. Greatest military commander of Westeros my arse.

The Cersei flashback was a refresher for everyone that her kids and relationship have been an important catalyst in everything that's happened in the story. It's also showing her as vulnerable and introducing her descent.

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R+L=J is totally possible timewise. But the argument against it is that two characters we are told are paragons of virtue have to forget themselves and commit adultery behind Elia's back.

Rhaegar is definitely described as honorable, kind, wise, etc., but he's also described as obsessively consumed with his prophecy, and more so every year of his life. If the prophecy implies that he has to commit bigamy (which, again, is not traditionally a problem for Targaryens, even if it's not very common nowadays) or adultery to save the world, I could see him being very torn up over whether/how he should break it to Elia, but I don't think he'd hesitate at all over his decision to go ahead with it.

As for Lyanna, when are we ever told that she's a paragon of virtue? We're told that she's "too wild" and "has the wolf in her" and isn't a "proper lady". Even by the people who loved her most, Robert and Ned.

Besides, this is not even open for question. It's a simple historical fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna and ran off for the Tower of Joy. If he's too honorable to have eloped with her for a polygamous marriage, surely he's too honorable to have abducted her to rape her or to murder her for blood magic or any of the other alternatives.

Jon really believes that there is no place for him in society because he is a bastard. Being a legitimized or bigamous bastard does not change that situation in Jon's eyes.

Sure, and that leaves an opening for an interesting character conflict. To Howland or Mel or whoever else breaks the news, it will be the most wonderful thing in the world--imagine, you're secretly the rightful King, and the Prince That Was Promised, and the Third Head of the Dragon, what could be better than that? But all Jon hears is, wait a second, that means I'm even farther from my dream of being acknowledged as Ned's trueborn son; I'm not even Ned's son at all?

And yes, Jon's hair has to change color if R+E=J. That was the original point. Based on my hypothesis that R+E=J, I predicted that Jon's appearance would change in a major way next season. And now we hear that maybe Kit won't play Jon at all.

That would make sense if Jon was like Little Griff, or Alaine, intentionally disguising himself until it's time to reveal his true identity. But clearly, that's not the case here. Are you suggesting that knowing his parentage will magiclally change his hair color, or that Howland or whoever has been secretly disguising Jon without his knowledge or anyone else's for his whole life, or what?

It also appears very likely that Benjen is returning. That was always on the cards for book 6. While Ned may not have told Benjen who Jon's father is, it would be logical for Ned to tell Benjen what his promise to Lyanna was so that it could be kept if he died suddenly. What if the promise was to 'protect all the children'.

So you think the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned on her deathbed was "protect all the children of the Targaryens, who murdered our brother and father and kidnapped me"?

Somehow, that doesn't seem in character given that Lyanna is a human being and not from Bizarro World.

If Ned didn't tell Benjen, the only way left to reveal it would be a note in Lyanna's tomb.

You mean the same Lyanna's tomb which was recently dramatically pointed out to Theon in the books and to Sansa on TV?

Also, how is that the only way left? Why keep harping on the fact that the as-yet unseen Howland Reed is the only survivor from the Tower of Joy encounter? Sure, it isn't guaranteed that he knows anything, but "the long-awaited Howland probably knows something because he was there" seems a lot less of a stretch than "the long-awaited Benjen probably knows something because he was the brother of someone who was there".

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What was the point of the Cersei flashback in episode 1? It was never referenced or expanded upon, and, as far as I can tell, played no part in the story. I didn't like it in the books, so I was hoping they would cut it out, especially as they haven't gone with the crazy Cersei route.

I rewatched the episode because I wanted to give the Arya scenes another lookover and my God, Dorne is actually worse on a second viewing. Why the hell does Ellaria wait until her nose starts to bleed before taking the antidote? I'll tell you why: because they wanted a cool TV shot, even though its a very stupid thing to do. I don't care how knowledgable you are about poison, you don't wait until things almost get to the point of no-return before taking the antidote.

And no military commander, no matter how stupid, would do what Stannis did in this episode. Greatest military commander of Westeros my arse.

They wanted a great TV shot on TV? Oh the humanity. LOL.

To me it seemed like Stannis knew he was marching to his death. He was completely broken. He had a hand in murdering his daughter, the only person he loved, he lost his army and his wife. He looked like a hopeless, broken man that was past the point of return. He was consumed by taking the throne and his willingness to do anything to achieve that goal left him a shell of a man.

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Opinions are opinions. You are entitled to your own. I have said NUMEROUS times what while I don't agree with people who (don't like show / love last two books), that I can understand where they are coming from.

The book purists literally every week tell me two things;

1). You must be a paid commenter and everyone who voted 8-10 is paid by HBO.

And

2). You didn't read the books.

Both of these things have been said in this thread, and at least one by you. You are the ones, by and large, who can't tolerate differing opinion. You can't even stick to your massively popular thread dedicated solely to complaining about the show. You have to come on this one and derail conversation about the show with conversation about how the show is awful. It's very tiring. We get it. You don't like it. I don't agree, but I definitely believe you're sincere! Now can we discuss the show and what we learned his season and where the plot is headed, please?

Edited by Spilt Pea Soup

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Someone asked me today why I bother watching the show if I think it's so bad. Well, the show brought me to the books. I watched S1E1 at my girlfriend's insistence and fell in love with the thing. I watched the whole of season 1 that day and borrowed a copy of AGoT, to see what they were like. I read about a third of it during the night and the next day I went and bought books 1-5. So I'm eternally grateful to the show for bringing me to the books. And I genuinely thought that it was some of the best stuff on TV. I watched seasons 2 and 3, and although they had flaws, I thought that they were still pretty great. Season 4 was when I thought things started going wobbly. But I still enjoyed it and afterwards I looked to season 5 with anticipation. I was looking forward to some of the changes that they would make. But this season has been poor. It left in stuff that should have been cut, it removed stuff that should have been left in. The writing got sloppy and, at times, bad. The leaps of logic required to justify certain narratives became too much. The failures in continuity happened more and more often. Even the acting took a hit this year. But I've never been a hate watcher. I watch each episode hoping for it to be the great show that it once was. Every episode this year I hoped against the increasingly unlikely outcome that the episode would be great, or even good.



I want this show to be great. And that means criticising it when it makes mistakes. And this year there were plenty.


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Using Benjen as an excuse to lure Jon outside to FTW him is actually a great way to remind the viewers that season 1 Benjen is still missing. It's a scene people re-watch and talk about. So, less 'who's Benjen?'s when (if) he returns next season.

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I want this show to be great. And that means criticising it when it makes mistakes. And this year there were plenty.

The best we can hope is that they just totally couldn't handle cutting down the two books and finding interesting plots for TV, and that the future seasons being based on single books will be more focused especially with the book plots (hopefully) being more direct. My issue is what's going to happen with no book material to follow and quote...I'm actually terrified despite the fact that I assume the final two books will translate better to screen.

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Someone asked me today why I bother watching the show if I think it's so bad. Well, the show brought me to the books. I watched S1E1 at my girlfriend's insistence and fell in love with the thing. I watched the whole of season 1 that day and borrowed a copy of AGoT, to see what they were like. I read about a third of it during the night and the next day I went and bought books 1-5. So I'm eternally grateful to the show for bringing me to the books. And I genuinely thought that it was some of the best stuff on TV. I watched seasons 2 and 3, and although they had flaws, I thought that they were still pretty great. Season 4 was when I thought things started going wobbly. But I still enjoyed it and afterwards I looked to season 5 with anticipation. I was looking forward to some of the changes that they would make. But this season has been poor. It left in stuff that should have been cut, it removed stuff that should have been left in. The writing got sloppy and, at times, bad. The leaps of logic required to justify certain narratives became too much. The failures in continuity happened more and more often. Even the acting took a hit this year. But I've never been a hate watcher. I watch each episode hoping for it to be the great show that it once was. Every episode this year I hoped against the increasingly unlikely outcome that the episode would be great, or even good.

I want this show to be great. And that means criticising it when it makes mistakes. And this year there were plenty.

Exactly. Well stated Ser. :cheers:

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The Cersei flashback was a refresher for everyone that her kids and relationship have been an important catalyst in everything that's happened in the story. It's also showing her as vulnerable and introducing her descent.

But they never showed us a descent. Cersei's character hasn't descended into anything. Until she was arrested, she was pretty much the same from the beginning of the season.

They wanted a great TV shot on TV? Oh the humanity. LOL.

You're laughing, but perhaps I simply value realistic character behaviour over cool TV shots. And the show could have given us both, if they had perhaps simply shown her nose start to bleed immediately after Doran left the dock.

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To me it seemed like Stannis knew he was marching to his death. He was completely broken. He had a hand in murdering his daughter, the only person he loved, he lost his army and his wife. He looked like a hopeless, broken man that was past the point of return. He was consumed by taking the throne and his willingness to do anything to achieve that goal left him a shell of a man.

Exactly. The battle was hopeless. So, what were Stannis's options?

  1. Give himself up, in hopes that some of his men can flee or surrender or otherwise survive.

Try to flee and go dick around Essos like a Blackfyre.

March hopelessly into certain death because it's his duty and his destiny.

Stannis being Stannis, there's really only one option.

And I think they conveyed that very well in his face and his bearing.

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They wanted a great TV shot on TV? Oh the humanity. LOL.

To me it seemed like Stannis knew he was marching to his death. He was completely broken. He had a hand in murdering his daughter, the only person he loved, he lost his army and his wife. He looked like a hopeless, broken man that was past the point of return. He was consumed by taking the throne and his willingness to do anything to achieve that goal left him a shell of a man.

Yeah, all this criticism about how D&D made Stannis make bad decisions is ridiculous. Stannis already went all in. He burned his child, his wife is dead, his svengali deserted him. Was he supposed to stay where he was or fall back to the Wall? He sacrificed his child and had to move somewhere while the weather was good. He clearly thought he was going to hold a siege outside Winterfell, ordered his men to form a foraging party for food and was presumably hoping that Davos was going to show up at some point with more men and provisions.

And Stannis is making the bad decisions in the books that led to this point. He's attacking a castle without enough supplies, his army is starving. D&D have only sped up the inevitable.

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And no military commander, no matter how stupid, would do what Stannis did in this episode. Greatest military commander of Westeros my arse.

Well, this time "the greatest military commander of Westeros" didn't have Young Jon to save him from a Dreadfort trap. Even then, the boy did try to warn the great general:

Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay’s, they will have you outnumbered five to one… Sire, this is a bold stroke, but the risk—” The Night’s Watch takes no part. Baratheon or Bolton should be the same to me. “If Roose Bolton should catch you beneath his walls with his main strength, it will be the end for all of you.”

Sure enough...

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But they never showed us a descent. Cersei's character hasn't descended into anything. Until she was arrested, she was pretty much the same from the beginning of the season.

You're laughing, but perhaps I simply value realistic character behaviour over cool TV shots. And the show could have given us both, if they had perhaps simply shown her nose start to bleed immediately after Doran left the dock.

They never showed her descent? Seriously? The woman that was imprisoned, drank water off a dirty floor, admitted to having an affair with her cousin and forced to walk naked through the city while having literal shit thrown on her? That woman? That wasn't a descent? What in the actual fuck do you want?

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How did they get rid of the tatts?

Airbrush?

Not sure if you got your answer yet, but that was not Lena's body. They used a body double and digitally patched Lena's face on the wider shots. (The close up shots were actually Lena and were shoulders up only). If you ask me this makes the scene even more impressive.

Her contract specifically has no frontal nudity in it.

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They never showed her descent? Seriously? The woman that was imprisoned, drank water off a dirty floor, admitted to having an affair with her cousin and forced to walk naked through the city while having literal shit thrown on her? That woman? That wasn't a descent? What in the actual fuck do you want?

Jesus, and people say book readers spew bile...

If you had actually read my post, you would see it said 'until she was arrested.' Obviously there was a descent from there. But the prophecy played no part in that descent. Unlike her book counterpart, she isn't descending into madness. That's the descent I was talking about.

By the way, I actually preferred Show!Cersei to her book counterpart; I thought she was more well-rounded. Same with Ser Alliser (until this episode at least). But I can see no justification for keeping the prophecy in the show. It should have been cut.

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Do people think Dany is going to have an easy time with Dorhraki or will she be captured and need to be rescued. I was more inclined to say she was going to have an easy time with them after the book, but the show certainly doesn't imply that (her dropping the ring and the general mood of the scene).

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This is still early in her transformation; they need us rooting for her at the start, so they can gradually make her actions more brutal and less justified until there's finally a point (hopefully a different point for different viewers) where we stop being able to go along for the ride and start being shocked at what she's become. That's how you write Breaking Bad (or at least Falling Down), instead of Revenge of the Sith.

Well the show is not going the way of BB imo (that's the only one I've seen that you mentioned) They are not taking the time to set things up... it is clear from here out it's full steam ahead. Early in her transformation? It's done. The show wasted so much time on her doing nothing and then they jump her to the Mercy parallel plot. In the book that seems to show her time in Bravos is wrapping up. The one chance they had this season to show her training was totally scrapped for the Trant execution instead. Why show her still at the beginning stages of her training next season? With supposedly only 2 seasons left she has to start moving into position of the end game for her arc. I hope they are able to do what you are saying but seeing what they've done to all the other characters I dont have much faith, instead i forsee bad ass Arya exacts revenge on those that deserve it. Some people (like my fiance) are ok with just action, I need depth and character building as well. That is why many do complain about the show these days, the soul of these characters and the overall story is being butchered. I enjoy the journey more than the destination. This is a great story that does not need to be changed (improved upon...Idk how anyone can say that). Yes it needs to be tweeked, consolidated for tv, but My God tell the same story.

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