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[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

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Opinions are opinions. You are entitled to your own. I have said NUMEROUS times what while I don't agree with people who (don't like show / love last two books), that I can understand where they are coming from.

The book purists literally every week tell me two things;

This really isn't unique to GoT, or even to adapted works.

For example: "I don't know what's happened to this show. This season, the show has neglected everything worthwhile, and replaced it with the most pointless filler to appear on television in my memory". That's from a BBC audience satisfaction survey about Doctor Who in 1965. And if you pay attention to the detractors, apparently the show declined disastrously every year, consistently, from 1963 to 1989, and even more so once outlets like Doctor Who Magazine started to appear. And yet, if you go back and watch season 26, amazingly, it wasn't just an out-of-focus test card with a shrill noise playing over the top for 25 minutes.

Every fandom has its irrational haters. They can't force you to discuss things on their terms unless you let them. Just skim their posts looking for interesting points you can discuss around them, or ignore them entirely.

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Do people think Dany is going to have an easy time with Dorhraki or will she be captured and need to be rescued. I was more inclined to say she was going to have an easy time with them after the book, but the show certainly doesn't imply that (her dropping the ring and the general mood of the scene).

From what I know of screenwriting: conflict creates character. She can't have an easy time because that would be boring to watch. It's likely she will be captured and Drogon will be too busy licking his wounds to help her. She has to answer for her part in Drogo's death. She certainly doesn't look happy to see this khalasar. Remember: Rakharo was killed by a rival band of Dothraki.

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If you had actually read my post, you would see it said 'until she was arrested.' Obviously there was a descent from there. But the prophecy played no part in that descent.

I think the prophecy was actually only meant to foreshadow Myrcella's death, not to set up Cersei's descent.

But I think it didn't really work. The setup and payoff were so far apart, with so little to link them, that most of my unsullied friends didn't even remember that Cersei had been told that all of her children would die before her. Which means it was a waste.

(And of course it also misled the the book readers into expecting a different story than they were going to give us, but that doesn't matter. We're a small minority of the viewership, we were already expecting that different story, and the handful of people who can't accept that they didn't get exactly the story they expected wouldn't have accepted it any better if they'd cut the prophecy.)

By the way, I actually preferred Show!Cersei to her book counterpart; I thought she was more well-rounded.

I agree in general, but I do think the first half of this season was an exception.

I'm glad they didn't do full-on-crazy Cersei; it would have been to hard to get there believably from where she was last season, and it also would have made the ending less interesting if she'd already hit rock bottom before being captured.

But one of the causes of her downfall should have been something clearly irrational, not just her betting too big and losing. For example, arming the Faith in hopes that she'll be able to control them could have worked out--it didn't, but given what she, and we (ignoring the books), knew at the time, it was certainly plausible. On the other hand, seducing Osney to get him to seduce Margy and confess, there's no way that could have worked; it only makes sense if Cersei believes her own made-up slander. And they could set that plot up with just three short, simple scenes over the course of the season, and everyone would understand what's going on. (That probably isn't the only possibility, it's just the one that seems most obvious to me.)

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Just thinking of Bran who wasn't in this Season, I wonder if Hempstead will be too big to play the part? I mean he is already 5'9. I don't think Hodor will be carrying him. :shocked:


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I think the prophecy was actually only meant to foreshadow Myrcella's death, not to set up Cersei's descent.

But I think it didn't really work. The setup and payoff were so far apart, with so little to link them, that most of my unsullied friends didn't even remember that Cersei had been told that all of her children would die before her. Which means it was a waste.

(And of course it also misled the the book readers into expecting a different story than they were going to give us, but that doesn't matter. We're a small minority of the viewership, we were already expecting that different story, and the handful of people who can't accept that they didn't get exactly the story they expected wouldn't have accepted it any better if they'd cut the prophecy.)

I agree in general, but I do think the first half of this season was an exception.

I'm glad they didn't do full-on-crazy Cersei; it would have been to hard to get there believably from where she was last season, and it also would have made the ending less interesting if she'd already hit rock bottom before being captured.

But one of the causes of her downfall should have been something clearly irrational, not just her betting too big and losing. For example, arming the Faith in hopes that she'll be able to control them could have worked out--it didn't, but given what she, and we (ignoring the books), knew at the time, it was certainly plausible. On the other hand, seducing Osney to get him to seduce Margy and confess, there's no way that could have worked; it only makes sense if Cersei believes her own made-up slander. And they could set that plot up with just three short, simple scenes over the course of the season, and everyone would understand what's going on. (That probably isn't the only possibility, it's just the one that seems most obvious to me.)

That's not true. Either they should have done the prophecy including Melara ending up dead in the well, or not done it at all. The half measure was the worst possible choice, because then it has no meaning or importance, it's a random 'cool' opening but it doesn't resonate with viewers.

Why couldn't Cersei have simply attempted to frame Marg for adultery? She doesn't have to seduce the guy, bribe him, it's less complicated than the books but more believable than the queen of westeros in prison for lying about her brother's sex life.

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Do people think Dany is going to have an easy time with Dorhraki or will she be captured and need to be rescued. I was more inclined to say she was going to have an easy time with them after the book, but the show certainly doesn't imply that (her dropping the ring and the general mood of the scene).

I suspect that, at the start of next season, they're going to drag her to Vaes Dothrak as a prisoner, for the reasons RoamingRonin gave.

You're right that the book's cliffhanger is less obviously threatening, but I think it's going to end up in pretty much the same place. As far as they're concerned, her rightful place is among the dosh khaleen, and many signs point to her becoming the most important dosh khaleen in living memory. So, they will take her to Vaes Dothrak as a greatly honored--but unwilling--guest. (Which, from her point of view, is really not much different.)

Either way, presumably she somehow ends up getting the Dothraki to follow her west, in some big dramatic turn of events.

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Do people think Dany is going to have an easy time with Dorhraki or will she be captured and need to be rescued. I was more inclined to say she was going to have an easy time with them after the book, but the show certainly doesn't imply that (her dropping the ring and the general mood of the scene).

It would be nice if they finally showed her taking charge again and not the helpless damsel in distress as of late. My fiance is just now getting into the show and is on season 3. When sailing to astapor, her and Jorah were taking (can't recall the exact context) but he says how the Dorhraki respect power/strength? above all else which I think could have been some forshadowing. I think she is meant to lead a mighty khalassar (sp?). Drogon should have been with her when the Dorhraki came, seeing them together would have made them in awe/fear and gave her the upper hand. So idk what the show intends. Hopefully Drogon makes an appearance and she kills the khal somehow and takes over. Better not be Jorah and dario to the rescue.

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That's not true. Either they should have done the prophecy including Melara ending up dead in the well, or not done it at all. The half measure was the worst possible choice, because then it has no meaning or importance, it's a random 'cool' opening but it doesn't resonate with viewers.

What's not true? I said the prophecy didn't work as (I think) they intended and ended up being a pointless waste, and you respond, in effect, "nuh uh, it didn't work and was a pointless waste".

Why couldn't Cersei have simply attempted to frame Marg for adultery? She doesn't have to seduce the guy, bribe him, it's less complicated than the books but more believable than the queen of westeros in prison for lying about her brother's sex life.

Well, she could have, but I think that would have basically the same problems as the storyline they went with.

First, yes, the Queen is now in prison for adultery and fornication instead of lying about her brother's sex life--but if the only thing Osney reveals under questioning is that Cersei bribed him, then the Queen Mother is now in prison for soliciting someone to lie about someone else's sex life, instead of for adultery and fornication. (Of course they could have done your storyline plus the Lancel one they ended up using, but why do two different things to set up the same result?)

Second, trying to frame Margy is really just another risk that doesn't pay off. Pushing your luck and coming up snake eyes isn't a tragic downfall; being fooled by your own lies is.

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What's not true? I said the prophecy didn't work as (I think) they intended and ended up being a pointless waste, and you respond, in effect, "nuh uh, it didn't work and was a pointless waste".

Well, she could have, but I think that would have basically the same problems as the storyline they went with.

First, yes, the Queen is now in prison for adultery and fornication instead of lying about her brother's sex life--but if the only thing Osney reveals under questioning is that Cersei bribed him, then the Queen Mother is now in prison for soliciting someone to lie about someone else's sex life, instead of for adultery and fornication. (Of course they could have done your storyline plus the Lancel one they ended up using, but why do two different things to set up the same result?)

Second, trying to frame Margy is really just another risk that doesn't pay off. Pushing your luck and coming up snake eyes isn't a tragic downfall; being fooled by your own lies is.

You said that the people who complained about the prophecy not being complete would have complained about it being cut as well. And that isn't true. But whatever, I can see where this will go, LOL.

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I think the prophecy was actually only meant to foreshadow Myrcella's death, not to set up Cersei's descent.

But I think it didn't really work. The setup and payoff were so far apart, with so little to link them, that most of my unsullied friends didn't even remember that Cersei had been told that all of her children would die before her. Which means it was a waste.

(And of course it also misled the the book readers into expecting a different story than they were going to give us, but that doesn't matter. We're a small minority of the viewership, we were already expecting that different story, and the handful of people who can't accept that they didn't get exactly the story they expected wouldn't have accepted it any better if they'd cut the prophecy.)

I agree in general, but I do think the first half of this season was an exception.

I'm glad they didn't do full-on-crazy Cersei; it would have been to hard to get there believably from where she was last season, and it also would have made the ending less interesting if she'd already hit rock bottom before being captured.

But one of the causes of her downfall should have been something clearly irrational, not just her betting too big and losing. For example, arming the Faith in hopes that she'll be able to control them could have worked out--it didn't, but given what she, and we (ignoring the books), knew at the time, it was certainly plausible. On the other hand, seducing Osney to get him to seduce Margy and confess, there's no way that could have worked; it only makes sense if Cersei believes her own made-up slander. And they could set that plot up with just three short, simple scenes over the course of the season, and everyone would understand what's going on. (That probably isn't the only possibility, it's just the one that seems most obvious to me.)

The bit that didn't work for me was Cersei's justifications for arming the Faith. Now, I am against hand-holding, but I do think the audience needed more reasons for Cersei to make that call. Like them being a potential use against Stannis and his Red Witch, or by cancelling the Faith's loan. Cersei arming them just to take down Margaery is a bit like burning down your house to kill a spider.

And of course the Dornish birthmark being the bit of evidence that apparently swayed them was just... funny.

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What's not true? I said the prophecy didn't work as (I think) they intended and ended up being a pointless waste, and you respond, in effect, "nuh uh, it didn't work and was a pointless waste".

Well, she could have, but I think that would have basically the same problems as the storyline they went with.

First, yes, the Queen is now in prison for adultery and fornication instead of lying about her brother's sex life--but if the only thing Osney reveals under questioning is that Cersei bribed him, then the Queen Mother is now in prison for soliciting someone to lie about someone else's sex life, instead of for adultery and fornication. (Of course they could have done your storyline plus the Lancel one they ended up using, but why do two different things to set up the same result?)

Second, trying to frame Margy is really just another risk that doesn't pay off. Pushing your luck and coming up snake eyes isn't a tragic downfall; being fooled by your own lies is.

Marg may not be guilty of sleeping with Cersei's plants, but I'm pretty sure Marg is sleeping with someone which is still treason for a Queen. Edited by Alia of the knife

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It would be nice if they finally showed her taking charge again and not the helpless damsel in distress as of late. My fiance is just now getting into the show and is on season 3. When sailing to astapor, her and Jorah were taking (can't recall the exact context) but he says how the Dorhraki respect power/strength? above all else which I think could have been some forshadowing. I think she is meant to lead a mighty khalassar (sp?). Drogon should have been with her when the Dorhraki came, seeing them together would have made them in awe/fear and gave her the upper hand. So idk what the show intends. Hopefully Drogon makes an appearance and she kills the khal somehow and takes over. Better not be Jorah and dario to the rescue.

I agree with you about giving Dany some agency again. And I like your idea of Drogon being the key. But I don't like him just killing the Khal for her.

Bearing in mind that I haven't read the book they'll be adapting or asked GRRM about it, I'd write something like this:

She appears to be a damsel in distress for the first couple episodes. They drag her back to Vaes Dothrak, try her, and sentence her to execution or decide to install her as a dosh khaleen seer or whatever.

But then, at the last second, Drogon shows up overhead. She calls him, he swoops down, she jumps up on his back, then she tells everyone that Drogon is the Stallion, and they can follow her and Drogon in Mounting the World or be the first ones mounted. At first everyone is unsure. Then Jhaqo rejects her and throws a spear. Dany points out that, just like her own brother, Jhaqo has not only violated the sacred laws of Vaes Dothrak, but also failed to bloody his enemy. And that gets her not his khalassar, but a massive horde made up of many khalassars.

Meanwhile, Joran and Daario show up and get captured, and Dany makes them shave their heads and ride at the back of the train, because that's what happens to warriors who attack and fail.

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Why were Ellaria and the SS even allowed near Myrcella? I'd have thought Doran, Jaime and Trystane would all have been against letting those 4 anywhere near her.


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Opinions are opinions. You are entitled to your own. I have said NUMEROUS times what while I don't agree with people who (don't like show / love last two books), that I can understand where they are coming from.

The book purists literally every week tell me two things;

1). You must be a paid commenter and everyone who voted 8-10 is paid by HBO.

And

2). You didn't read the books.

Both of these things have been said in this thread, and at least one by you. You are the ones, by and large, who can't tolerate differing opinion. You can't even stick to your massively popular thread dedicated solely to complaining about the show. You have to come on this one and derail conversation about the show with conversation about how the show is awful. It's very tiring. We get it. You don't like it. I don't agree, but I definitely believe you're sincere! Now can we discuss the show and what we learned his season and where the plot is headed, please?

Oh think yourself lucky that they didn't demand that you read the 141,000,000 post R+L=J thread and answer their 23023 question survey before you can have any opinion at all on Jon's parents.

Using Benjen as an excuse to lure Jon outside to FTW him is actually a great way to remind the viewers that season 1 Benjen is still missing. It's a scene people re-watch and talk about. So, less 'who's Benjen?'s when (if) he returns next season.

Bingo. I thought that looked like a clever way to re-introduce Benjen.

The pink letter does not really work after Hardhome, Jon would not suggest going off on a private war after he sees the WW coming.

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You said that the people who complained about the prophecy not being complete would have complained about it being cut as well.

First, it's pretty confusing to quote six paragraphs, only to respond, with no context, to a parenthetical buried in the middle.

Second, that isn't even remotely what I said in that parenthetical:

(And of course it also misled the the book readers into expecting a different story than they were going to give us, but that doesn't matter. We're a small minority of the viewership, we were already expecting that different story, and the handful of people who can't accept that they didn't get exactly the story they expected wouldn't have accepted it any better if they'd cut the prophecy.)

There's nothing in there about the people who complained about the prophecy not being complete. It's all about the people who expected the Cersei-goes-crazy story and refused to accept the different story we got. Those people wouldn't have been any happier if the prophecy were cut. But that doesn't matter; it should have been cut anyway.

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The pink letter does not really work after Hardhome, Jon would not suggest going off on a private war after he sees the WW coming.

Good point. Imagine how angry Ramsay would be with the reply Jon would have sent:

Dear Ramsay Bolton.

Congrats on not being a bastard anymore!

I apologize that I didn't get a chance to read in more detail, because it looked rather urgent, but I am somewhat busy preparing for a desperate fight against an army of supernatural monsters who already clobbered us once, and that was before raising 10000 new zombies from our fallen allies in the blink of an eye. Most likely, next time you see me, it will be as part of a ravening undead horde that will swarm over all of Westeros and destroy everything in its path. If so, apologies in advance. But if not, I promise to read the rest of your letter the first chance I get.

Your friend--sadly, still a bastard :(

Jon Snow, Cmdr., Night Watch

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I think Jon, Stannis, and Sandor will all be back.

Stannis and Sandor simply because they didn't show them die on screen. We all know this show has no problem with gory content, so if they're really dead... Why not show it?

Jon will be back cuz they can't lose such a big player like that. I know they've killed big players before, but none from THE trio of Tyrion, Dany, and Jon (Arya's rising too). With the Red Priestess back in Castle Black, that seems the most likely route. If not her, I'm sure something else will come up later where Jon comes back.

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