Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP510 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Please don’t get me wrong. I love them too and I love fantasy yes. I mean I wrote my thesis on ASOIAF. I absolutely love it, But that does not mean that the literary canon will include/ or includes ASOIAF into their "list". Unfortunately that is not the case at the moment. I had a hard time finding any literary criticism on ASOIAF that was done by fantasy researchers that are worth citing in a research paper. think there was only one important fantasy anthology that mentioned it in about one sentence. Form a scientific perspective I sincerely hope that this will change, but you never know. See above I explained one aspect of ASOIAF uniqueness.

ETA: and I believe there is actually something going on when comes to fantasy at the moment. Especially after Tolkien there was something like an explosion and fantasy as genre lost some kind of its partial negative connotation of children's lit.

There are many people that currently are working on Martin on a professional level especially when it comes to dissertation. When Martin finishes his novel there might be again a little explosion (ASOIAF as part of the literary canon) since he clearly differs from current and previous fantasy novels.

So I hope ASOIAF will establish itself because I believe it deserves more appreciation. However, it was not the case as I started writing my thesis.

Lol. Classic. ASOIAF will never enjoy critical acclaim or entry in the canon of great literature. It may get a mention here or there in specialty fantasy seminars taught by uber-geeks, but it's not going to be allowed anywhere near the classics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said that people who keep carping on about the showrunners being stupid make themselves look idiotic. You strip out the context in a pathetic attempt to take the high ground. You don't make yourself look clever by calling other people stupid and you don't make yourself look clever with that ploy either.

Here is another fact that you might want to get your brain around. If the show has littlefinger doing X, then that is the sort of thing show littlefinger does. Complaining that it is out of character is ludicrous because by definition, that it what show littlefinger does.

Show littlefinger manages to parlay Sansa to get within striking distance of becomming warden of the North. Show littlefinger is a manipulative liar who causes the death of Ned, Catlyn, Robb, Joffrey, murders several people with his own hands and lets Joffrey murder Ros. And you think he wouldn't do something because he is too honorable to do such a thing to Sansa.

So show littlefinger has aptly demonstrated that he is more than capable of fooling large numbers of people on this forum that he would not do such a despicable thing to Sansa despite the fact that folk here have vastly more information than Sansa does. So it really should be no surprise that Sansa was fooled. But don't complain about how stupid the showrunners are for having an evil despicable character do an evil despicable thing that profits him greatly.

At no point did I say Littlefinger wouldn't do this thing because he's too honourable/nice/[insert adjective here]. What I did say is that LF would not risk a game piece, no matter the value, without good reason.

LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there.

Now, in the various outcomes of Stannis vs Boltons, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't aid LF at all. LF gets a better outcome in all possible scenarios if he simply lies to Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey.

1) Stannis wins, Sansa marries

Well, here LF (if he wants to ally with Stannis) has to explain why he arranged a marriage between the last Stark and Stannis' enemies. Sansa's life is at risk during the battle/siege of Winterfell. Stannis may simply kill LF for treason against him. If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis could attempt to use Sansa as a hostage against either LF or the Lords of the Vale (Royce, for instance) or he could attempt to rally the remaining Northerners around Sansa by naming her Wardeness of the North. If Sansa survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death.

2) Stannis wins, LF lies

Here, LF can present Sansa to the triumphant Stannis. Stannis is grateful, or at least, as grateful as Stannis can be. Sansa will be named Wardeness of the North and LF may be allowed to marry her (if he so wishes) securing an alliance between the Vale and North. Sansa is not at risk for any of this and she will be much better inclined towards LF, though she may reject the marriage proposal (and has Lysa's death as her trump card). If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis has no hostage or Stark rallying point.

3) Boltons win, Sansa marries

LF now has to lead the armies of the Vale against the weakened Bolton army. The Boltons will attempt to use Sansa as a hostage (again, against either LF or the Vale Lords). Roose might even write to KL to inform Cersei that LF was the one who arranged the marriage, in an attempt to bring down LF with himself. Sansa is at risk in the battle/siege of Winterfell and the second one with the Vale. If she survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North.

4) Bolton wins, LF lies

LF leads Vale armies against the Boltons. The Boltons have no hostage. Roose could write to KL and make something up in an attempt to bring LF down. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. Sansa will be grateful that LF rid her home of the family that killed hers. LF might propose a marriage to her; maybe she will accept.

Now, in which of these scenarios does actually marrying Sansa to Ramsey benefit Littlefinger? Answer: none. Lying is better: it costs him nothing, he doesn't have to risk a piece needlessly, Sansa is more inclined to help and trust him and much less likely to reveal the truth about Lysa.

End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At no point did I say Littlefinger wouldn't do this thing because he's too honourable/nice/[insert adjective here]. What I did say is that LF would not risk a game piece, no matter the value, without good reason.

LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there.

Bolton admits it obviously because he needs the Northern Lords more than he needs Cersei and he does not anticipate an attack by LF.

Lying to Cersei would be dangerous. The truth would come out after the fact.

And you are just flat wrong about what LF would do because he did it. That is show LF. Deal with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol. Classic. ASOIAF will never enjoy critical acclaim or entry in the canon of great literature. It may get a mention here or there in specialty fantasy seminars taught by uber-geeks, but it's not going to be allowed anywhere near the classics.

Sorry, I don't get it. Why the hell are you so hateful? I cannot understand that. All statements you made were so full of anger.

Moreover, when you are making a statement like that you should further eloborate on it. So why do you think this will never happen? Do you actually know important researchers in the literary field of fantasy? Do you read current articles in professional literary journals?

ETA: what you do is LOL. LOL is not a counterargument. And you are LOLing quite often as far as I can tell or making jokes instead of discussing. I have no problem if I finally have to agree to disagree. However, a discussion serves to understand different perspectives and trying to understand why people think A and others think B. Thus, a discussion can rather be enlightening and refreshing if and just IF one discusses...I am not claiming that I am right all the time. Maybe I am wrong, but please tell me in an appropriate manner.

Edited by Coby's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not hateful at all, it's just the truth.

There is very little academic research into genre fiction, and even less into fantasy specifically.

Please peruse an academic course catalog for a well respected university (Yale has a good comp lit dept) and you'll see that genre fantasy is nowhere to be found. Peruse literary magazines and you'll see the same thing. There are a few darlings--Octavia butler, Margaret Atwood, to name a few--but even they aren't held in the same high regard as their literary fiction counterparts.

And I think this is right. I don't think the fantasy genre has ever produced a work comparable to Cormac McCarthy or Toni Morrison or Faulkner or Hemingway. They aren't in the same league stylistically and in terms of cultural importance.

Edited by Spilt Pea Soup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not hateful at all, it's just the truth.

There is very little academic research into genre fiction, and even less into fantasy specifically.

Please peruse an academic course catalog for a well respected university (Yale has a good comp lit dept) and you'll see that genre fantasy is nowhere to be found. Peruse literary magazines and you'll see the same thing. There are a few darlings--Octavia butler, Margaret Atwood, to name a few--but even they aren't held in the same high regard as their literary fiction counterparts.

And I think this is right. I don't think the fantasy genre has ever produced a work comparable to Cormac McCarthy or Toni Morrison or Faulkner or Hemingway. They aren't in the same league stylistically and in terms of cultural importance.

I don't know why you are thinking there is no research. Sorry, I have no idea how to get online library access for Yale (and I would rather do a MLA search) But I know for sure lots of researchers. And Hemingway is great but he represents a different time and genre. From a more academic standpoint, I wouldn’t discuss Hemingway nowadays anymore at least not in an academic paper. In class, yes. However, there has been so much published and it is rather boring to summarize others over and over again.

You cannot compare Hemingway and Atwood. We are not talking about classic in the sense of "what you read in school".

As far as I am concerned Atwood is highly praised. BTW Atwood is rather not a clear cut representative of fantasy. Don’t know why we are talking about her. She rather blends genre and is more into ecofeminism and dystopian things, sf-style.

I can send you my list of literature in fantasy. You can read but it is quite long but includes many recent stuff. However, properly you should first start with Tolkien’s “about fairy tales” and then go with more recent stuff.

ETA: "It is not hateful, it is the truth"

Are you just able to talk in provocative statements like that? Is your constant LOLing now not hateful, but the truth. I don’t get it. Truth of what? That you rather prefer the show instead of the books? That the books suck in your opinion? Truth that there is no literary canon of fantasy?

As I was talking about “hate and anger” I was thinking about the rather aggressive comments you made in this forum. I was wondering why you were LOLing at people instead of counter arguing.

Uh moreover, I highly recommend this for the start :

http://universitypublishingonline.org/cambridge/companions/ebook.jsf?bid=CBO9781139014625

and perhaps every academic work written by him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Attebery

Oh and don't forget to include Clute and Grant's encyclopedia (it is even online)

Edited by Coby's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet fantasy has wide appeal



In 2003 the bbc did a survey asking people what their favourite book was



The winner was Lord of the Rings


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add, i dont care how an expert rates the 'greatness' of a book, as i understand it C.S.Lewis put tolkien forward for a nobel prize and the judges were unimpressed.



I couldnt care less, to me a great book is one that sucks people in, and successfully affects their emotions. Martin has managed to do that in his first 3 books, and so did LOTR (which i read 5 times but havent read for ten years)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add, i dont care how an expert rates the 'greatness' of a book, as i understand it C.S.Lewis put tolkien forward for a nobel prize and the judges were unimpressed.

I couldnt care less, to me a great book is one that sucks people in, and successfully affects their emotions. Martin has managed to do that in his first 3 books, and so did LOTR (which i read 5 times but havent read for ten years)

Like 50 Shades of Grey?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet fantasy has wide appeal

In 2003 the bbc did a survey asking people what their favourite book was

The winner was Lord of the Rings

I should add, i dont care how an expert rates the 'greatness' of a book, as i understand it C.S.Lewis put tolkien forward for a nobel prize and the judges were unimpressed.

I couldnt care less, to me a great book is one that sucks people in, and successfully affects their emotions. Martin has managed to do that in his first 3 books, and so did LOTR (which i read 5 times but havent read for ten years)

LOTR is awesome and I doubt that there is any scholar in the literary field who denies that.

ETA: Fantasy is as discussed as other genre, it is a genre as any other just with the acceptation that it is a very young genre compared to mhhhhh detective novels or the Bildungsroman....

Edited by Coby's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bolton admits it obviously because he needs the Northern Lords more than he needs Cersei and he does not anticipate an attack by LF.

Lying to Cersei would be dangerous. The truth would come out after the fact.

And you are just flat wrong about what LF would do because he did it. That is show LF. Deal with it.

Why would Roose Bolton admit it? He can deny that he did it to Cersei and still retain the Northern Lords. And if Cersei asks him if he married his heir to Ramsey, he'd know who informed on him and realise LF was his enemy.

Also, LF is lying to Cersei one way or the other. One is claiming Ramsey married Sansa when they didn't, the other is lying that the Boltons did it and he wasn't involved. LF conspired to murder Cersei's son; I think he's brave enough to risk lying to her. Roose was brave enough to wed his heir to Sansa even though it would make the Crown his enemy if they found out; I think he's prepared to risk lying to her. Besides, at the end of this, LF is either allied with Stannis or he's sitting on an alliance between the North and Vale (and potentially the Riverlands).

I'm afraid that character X does Y so that means it's 'in-character' isn't really how it works. Evil character does evil thing is in-character. Very clever character does stupid thing is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add, i dont care how an expert rates the 'greatness' of a book, as i understand it C.S.Lewis put tolkien forward for a nobel prize and the judges were unimpressed.

I couldnt care less, to me a great book is one that sucks people in, and successfully affects their emotions. Martin has managed to do that in his first 3 books, and so did LOTR (which i read 5 times but havent read for ten years)

You could go through the list of nobel lit laureates and less than a quarter are in any way popular writers.

Tolkein's importance was known long before he died. But here are numerous oversights, Arthur C. Clarke for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At no point did I say Littlefinger wouldn't do this thing because he's too honourable/nice/[insert adjective here]. What I did say is that LF would not risk a game piece, no matter the value, without good reason.

LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there.

Now, in the various outcomes of Stannis vs Boltons, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't aid LF at all. LF gets a better outcome in all possible scenarios if he simply lies to Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey.

1) Stannis wins, Sansa marries

Well, here LF (if he wants to ally with Stannis) has to explain why he arranged a marriage between the last Stark and Stannis' enemies. Sansa's life is at risk during the battle/siege of Winterfell. Stannis may simply kill LF for treason against him. If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis could attempt to use Sansa as a hostage against either LF or the Lords of the Vale (Royce, for instance) or he could attempt to rally the remaining Northerners around Sansa by naming her Wardeness of the North. If Sansa survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death.

2) Stannis wins, LF lies

Here, LF can present Sansa to the triumphant Stannis. Stannis is grateful, or at least, as grateful as Stannis can be. Sansa will be named Wardeness of the North and LF may be allowed to marry her (if he so wishes) securing an alliance between the Vale and North. Sansa is not at risk for any of this and she will be much better inclined towards LF, though she may reject the marriage proposal (and has Lysa's death as her trump card). If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis has no hostage or Stark rallying point.

3) Boltons win, Sansa marries

LF now has to lead the armies of the Vale against the weakened Bolton army. The Boltons will attempt to use Sansa as a hostage (again, against either LF or the Vale Lords). Roose might even write to KL to inform Cersei that LF was the one who arranged the marriage, in an attempt to bring down LF with himself. Sansa is at risk in the battle/siege of Winterfell and the second one with the Vale. If she survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North.

4) Bolton wins, LF lies

LF leads Vale armies against the Boltons. The Boltons have no hostage. Roose could write to KL and make something up in an attempt to bring LF down. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. Sansa will be grateful that LF rid her home of the family that killed hers. LF might propose a marriage to her; maybe she will accept.

Now, in which of these scenarios does actually marrying Sansa to Ramsey benefit Littlefinger? Answer: none. Lying is better: it costs him nothing, he doesn't have to risk a piece needlessly, Sansa is more inclined to help and trust him and much less likely to reveal the truth about Lysa.

End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.

In all of your scenarios, you mention that an angry and upset Sansa would reveal the truth about Lysa. Why would she do that when LF saved her from Lysa and she already lied for LF? That would make her just as guilty as LF.

IMO, that ship has sailed. Sansa can't go back on LF. Her last opportunity was at the Vale.

While LF promised Sansa to the Boltons, I don't think he anticipated getting the letter from Cersei. He may not have ever planned to let the wedding go through so quickly. Even so, he doesn't care about her virginity and would take her as his wife after defeating the Boltons anyway, if that is really what he wanted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all of your scenarios, you mention that an angry and upset Sansa would reveal the truth about Lysa. Why would she do that when LF saved her from Lysa and she already lied for LF? That would make her just as guilty as LF.

IMO, that ship has sailed. Sansa can't go back on LF. Her last opportunity was at the Vale.

While LF promised Sansa to the Boltons, I don't think he anticipated getting the letter from Cersei. He may not have ever planned to let the wedding go through so quickly. Even so, he doesn't care about her virginity and would take her as his wife after defeating the Boltons anyway, if that is really what he wanted.

Well she lied to save LF when she took him as the devil she knows as opposed to the devil she doesn't know.

Now she has had an horrific experience which she wouldn't have had without LF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all of your scenarios, you mention that an angry and upset Sansa would reveal the truth about Lysa. Why would she do that when LF saved her from Lysa and she already lied for LF? That would make her just as guilty as LF.

IMO, that ship has sailed. Sansa can't go back on LF. Her last opportunity was at the Vale.

While LF promised Sansa to the Boltons, I don't think he anticipated getting the letter from Cersei. He may not have ever planned to let the wedding go through so quickly. Even so, he doesn't care about her virginity and would take her as his wife after defeating the Boltons anyway, if that is really what he wanted.

What Dolorous Gabe said. And she can always use it as a method of mutually assured destruction. And even leaving out an angry Sansa (assume she either dies or is too stupid to be angry at LF) she offers no benefit in Winterfell. Again, it's not about LF really caring about her (I have no doubt he'd cut her throat if the price was good enough) but about him not risking a piece needlessly.

Maybe LF didn't anticipate a letter from Cersei, but surely he intended to tell her about the marriage regardless. Because otherwise he was relying on a Stannis victory to potentially get anything out of the Sansa-Ramsey marriage. Without telling Cersei, he doesn't have the Crown's permission to take the Vale armies North, nor does he get the reward of Warden of the North from Cersei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is just great. Really needed a counterpoint to those who have said "nobody considers ASOIAF good literature". *ahem*



Course catalog, by the way, is FREE and available online. It's just a list of classes. You'll quickly see the sort of books that make the grade.



I think there are numerous fantastical authors that are good literature (Borges, Marquez, Saramago, Llosa, LeGuin, Stanislaw Lem, Atwood, Butler, and many many more). All of them rise above the typical genre fare. Anyway, a different topic for a different thread. ASOIAF is pulpy supermarket fantasy. Very well done, but high literature, it is not.



(Science Fiction and Magical Realism seems to be more acceptable to the literary elite, for what it's worth. Although, we have authors starting to challenge that assumption, in particular Ishiguro's The Buried Giant.)


Edited by Spilt Pea Soup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same thing that happened to True Blood is happening to GoT. Show started awesome I was obsessed with it, read the books. The more the writing diverged from source material the worse the show became. It didn't make sense within itself broke it's own cannon. It was a mess but I still watched because I loved certain characters and kept hoping the show would get back to what it was at the beginning. I'm going to watch game a thrones till the end but i feel it's starting to lose it's heart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God help us if it ever gets to True Blood level awful. In all fairness, the Sookie Stackhouse Chronicles are nowhere near as good as ASOIAF. not even in the same league.

I thought parts of GoT season 5 (particularly Dorne) were absolutely as bad as True Blood got. Plus, at least True Blood had Pam coming out with some entertaining snark even when it was at its worst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...