[Poll] How would you rate episode 510?

[Alia of the knife]

as i said, i have rather irrationally come to the place on earth with the highest concentration of show haters. Kind of like a visit to Bedlam. The difference is i can leave.

How about show-questioners?

And there are a LOT of questions. I'm sorry if that seems like hate.

[Alia of the knife]

Yep. Here you go:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/07/george-rr-martin-on-sex-fantasy-and-a-dance-with-dragons/241738/

Goddamnit. Constantly getting :ninja: 'd.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Night'sQueen]

Tyrion has been robbed of much depth / grayness in the show. I'm not going to say he's completely whitewashed, but I get why people call him St. Tyrion. And the Faulkner influence reference applies because it's very much in evidence in the way the character is written in the books vs. the show.

[Alia of the knife]

i come here for the questioners. i'm not a troll. Questioners come from place of logic, haters come from a place of emotion.

:shocked:

Thats true, are you sure you don't want to take a step back? And I was not comparing aSoIaF to Faulkner himself, but making the point that another great author such as Faulkner was one of Martins INFLUENCERS.

As for personal, the only personal observation I would make, is that yes, it seems stupid, (to quote Arya), to deviate and change things for the sake of shock value and ratings, (and lets not kid ourselves here), when there is SO much that could have been utilized and fleshed out.\

- Jaimes growth and independence AWAY from Cersei along with his BREAK with her.

- NOT replacing Jeyne with Talisa, and having that story play out with Robbs mother-in-law in league with Tywin Lannister. And no king would ever take his queen, pregnant with his potential heir straight into enemy territory. Robb, Cat, and Greywolfs being butchered wasn't enough? :shocked:

They had to go all Helter Skelter by throwing in a pregnant Talisa?

- Loras was not the sum total of his sexuality.

- Oberyn was not the sum total of his sexuality and didn't live in a brothel. (Ever since Deadwood and Sorpanos, they've been beating us over the head with that shtick). They couldn't find a conference room at KL somewhere, or the traditional dark alley to plot?

And Elaria was the voice of reason and wanted the revenge to stop. They could have just introduced Dark Star for christs sake, and dumped Bronn if like blood magic where its life for a life, the finances are salary for salary, and yeah, we still have a war.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Alia of the knife

[Alia of the knife]

Tyrion has been robbed of much depth / grayness in the show. I'm not going to say he's completely whitewashed, but I get why people call him St. Tyrion. And the Faulkner influence reference applies because it's very much in evidence in the way the character is written in the books vs. the show.

Thank you.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You know, the whole "you all haters! leave the show alone!" is starting to sound like a tantrum. Even those who praised the show* are now telling the season was disappointing. That doesn't mean those who liked the show are wrong. Like the show is ok. Saying it was good is a completely different matter entirely.


*I'm talking about columns and articles from the start of the season. I was sure then it was all a PR move to hype the show and I'm sure now. Those saying "the show is better with all the changes" are now accepting it deviated too much from the original source and it's beyond recognition.

[ummester]

^^^ This is true more than anything else. The person they like dies or is not shown as they would like to see them and the ratings crash, the show sucks, writing sucks blah blah blah.

I kind of agree with this but, the show hasn't really proved or disproved any major end game theories yet.

Dany and her dragons could still be the saviour of the world, or a force for destruction.

The White Walkers could still be the sagas great antagonists, or a sympathetic bunch bringing the stories final message with them.

Anyone can still be Azor Ahai, including Stannis.

Jon and Dany could still make babies at the end, rip each others throats out, or unite to rid Westeros of it's human scum - or all 3 :D

All the major stuff is still up for grabs. Butthurt fans are those who are taking the characters and their interpretation of them, too seriously, not those that accept every character is expendable and it's the wider story that is important.

Edited June 16, 2015 by ummester

[yanmaodao]

I gave it a 9.

Overall a more consistent outing compared to earlier episodes this season. The high moments were higher (walk of atonement, Arya killing Trant, Theon killing Myranda) and the low moments had some redeeming qualities. Since people have talked at length about the former, and I don't see the usual positive nitpicking thread around, I'll focus on the latter.

The rushed Battle of Winterfell was no high point for sure, but I must be the only one who enjoyed Stannis in it. People seem to be divided into those who love Stannis and thus hated it and those who don't like or don't care for him who didn't mind it or even enjoyed because of that fact. I instantly grew to like Stannis as a show-watcher first, and his portrayal in this episode emphasized everything I liked about him in the first place. His grim, stoic acceptance of the cavalcade of bad news that would have visibly broken most other people. His grim, stoic acceptance of the fact that he would lose when the Bolton cavalry descended upon him; no ranting, no panic, just drawing his sword, accepting the inevitable, and going down fighting. Killing those two men with a gimp leg. Grim, stoic acceptance of his death via Brienne, excellent final words that summarized his character. I'll still never forgive him for Shireen and he deserved what he got, but I'll remember him as one of my favorite villains. The post-Castle Black Stannis's camp subplot needed more buildup, but I for one liked the oppressive, snowballing sense of futility and inevitability that came to a head in this episode. (One of the calamities that befell him this episode, such as losing all his cavalry, should have been before he burned Shireen. That should have been the catalyst. The reason why this happened should not have been plot-plated-hermetically-sealed-bubbled, Villain Sue Ramsay.)

Dorne was Dorne, and the "bad pussy" line was the most cringeworthy line in the series so far. I liked two lines said by Jaime: a repeat of his arc words, "we don't choose who we love", and his "what I'm trying to explain... uh, very awkwardly", which echoed what Tyrion said to Sansa two seasons before, which illustrates how similar the two Lannister brothers are.

"For the Watch" was pretty good. Walk of atonement was very nicely done. Loved Theon and Sansa. Didn't like Trant's pedophilication but Arya going Tarantino on him provided some much-needed catharsis. HoBaW was okay. Really didn't like how they jerked us around about Benjen, a character I'm dying to meet again.

I didn't like all the cliffhangers, but I'm not docking points for that because it seems like they did it that way to minimize book spoilers. Other than the Stannis storyline, which zoomed past the books (and the path will likely be very different in the books; I have no doubt that Stannis will be defeated eventually, but I don't know if it's going to be at Winterfell), no significant spoilers. Not really counting Myrcella's death or the Robert Strong = Mountain reveal as actual spoilers, because per Maggy's prophecy we all know Tommen and Myrcella are doomed, it's just a question of when; and only contrarians who like hearing themselves talk ever seriously doubted Gregorstein.

The way the Jon Snow death was handled was my worst fear, as I think this sort of cliffhanger is cheap storytelling. But I'm willing to forgive that if their motivation is to copy how ADwD ended and not pre-empt WoW. If Jon Snow never comes back in either the books or the show, I'd be very disillusioned with the series and lose a lot of interest. If Jon Snow comes back in the books but not the show, that would turn me against the show, though I'd respond by not talking about the show altogether than become a tedious detractor on these forums. I'm still expecting him to come back on both mediums and that the post-interview comments were lies intended to protect the secret, much like the show Revenge did earlier this year when it came to a dead character coming back. The show generally sticks very closely to the books when it comes to Big Moments (such as the walk of atonement in this very episode), and I can't imagine a scenario in which Jon Snow comes back in the books but his presence isn't essential to upcoming Big Moments in the final books.

[Barristan Whitebeard]

Didn't you hear the people that like the show are only dazzled by special effects and kills and boobs. Only the people that hate the show and watch it every week crying about how it's not like the book and say it doesn't make sense (but then when they try to explain it fall flat and keep going down their rabbit holes) understand true artistic merit.

And everyone who quit the show didn't post in the threads the next week.

I know a few of them, I Know, I Know, Oh, Oh... You know, the "I don't watch it anymore, but I'm here to talk about it every single week" bunch,,,,

[RedViperHD]

I know a few of them, I Know, I Know, Oh, Oh... You know, the "I don't watch it anymore, but I'm here to talk about it every single week" bunch,,,,

I'll watch the show just to see the horrible demise of it. Same as I watched the end of Boardwalk Empire in horror knowing that it was all downhill after Season 3.

I want a new edit of last nights episode. Highlander 2 style, because at moments last nights episode ventured into the Highlander 2 realm of quality. Dangerous, dangerous territory for a show.

Maybe we can get an edit where Stannis is dying by a tree and says "do your duty." then Brienne swings her sword and instead of cutting to Ramsay stabbing someone (again), we just cut to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE

Edited June 16, 2015 by RedViperHD

[Alia of the knife]

I'll watch the show just to see the horrible demise of it. Same as I watched the end of Boardwalk Empire in horror knowing that it was all downhill after Season 3.

I want a new edit of last night episode. Highlander 2 style because at moments last nights episode ventured into the Highlander 2 realm of quality. Dangerous, dangerous territory for a show.

Maybe we can get an edit where Stannis is dying by a tree and says "do your duty." then Brienne swings her sword and instead of cutting to Ramsay stabbing someone (again), we just cut to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE

Now see, you are going to make me watch H2 again. :stillsick:

And only Fonz could pull off jumping a shark. :cool4:

Edited June 16, 2015 by Alia of the knife

[Dragon in the North]

You know, the whole "you all haters! leave the show alone!" is starting to sound like a tantrum. Even those who praised the show* are now telling the season was disappointing. That doesn't mean those who liked the show are wrong. Like the show is ok. Saying it was good is a completely different matter entirely.

Quality is subjective. Most people who hate the show judge it for its writing, but I judge it for everything, such as acting, set designs, visuals, choreography, and basically how it makes me feel. I like the show, you don't, and I respect that. But there is no way either of us could prove the other wrong. It's just our opinion.

[Jon's know nothing]

1/10. It totally ruined ASOIAF

[RedViperHD]

Now see, you are going to make me watch H2 again. :stillsick:

And only Fonz could pull off jumping a shark. :cool4:

Hahahahah, yeah, I know, I don't feel sad because all the interesting characters are gone. I feel more sad because I know that a slow death is to come. There were too many moments last night where I should have cried or screamed but instead, I just didn't care or I laughed or I rolled my eyes or I did a face palm. To me, "You wanted a good girl, but you NEED a bad pussy" = Jumping the Shark. I just don't know if there is any coming back from that. That line may have single handedly killed the show. For those who are unfamiliar with the term, Jumping the Shark, refers to the moment in any show that happens that is so ridiculous, unbelievablee, or stupid that the show cannont possibly recover from its mistake. It's from the show Happy Days. This video is a good explanation of it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzes11yUR-E. And I feel like GOT came dangerously close to that point several times last night.

[yanmaodao]

as i said, i have rather irrationally come to the place on earth with the highest concentration of show haters. Kind of like a visit to Bedlam. The difference is i can leave.

Try the Reddit threads, if you haven't already. Mostly everyone there has read the books, and you hear a lot of the same type of comments, but overall a better balance of positivity and negativity and good humor on both sides.

I appreciate what you and lancerman are trying to do. A hard thankless task. Season 5 was my least favorite season, but most of the comments here are pretty ridiculous and I find myself defending it more often than not.

Now that the season's over, I'm mostly going to be popping in for the lovable crackpot theories on the main ASOIAF forum and sticking to mostly positive topics. Nothing else to do but wait for WoW, which I maintain faith will be released before Season 6; Martin has too much incentive to let this timing window go to waste. It'll be the first opportunity for me to read a book before its related season airs, which will be a cool experience.

[ummester]

I think the silly skeletons and Drogon's facial animation bring the show closer to jumping the shark than a bit of bad pussy - but then, as Dragon in the North has noted, just above, much of this is down to opinion.

I asked my wife if Drogon's face looked silly (she doesn't watch GoTs at all) and she just said,'Nah, it looks like the dragon is happy to see it's mommy.'

I said 'but it's a dragon, like a crocodile that breathes fire, not like our puppy, it shouldn't think and emote like our puppy!'

Wife says, 'Your taking this show a little bit too seriously.' :D

Point being, where something jumps the shark isn't down to individual opinions, but a combination of greater opinion. Obviously the broader audience is open to more liberal and fantastic use of the fantasy elements than I am, which could also suggest that the broader audience may be open to more varied dialogue, like bad pussy, and less step by step character development, than what the book lovers are. We'll know when it jumps the shark by what others think, not ourselves.

Case in point, Indiana Jones 4 - the Crystal Shit, or whatever - even before the term 'Nuked the Fridge' had formed on IMDB, there was a general consensus of hatred towards that film. You could go to the pub with a bunch of people who had seen it and if 1 tried to defend it, they would always loose :D GoTs is not there yet, Tyrion has yet to swing through the trees with the monkeys.

Edited June 16, 2015 by ummester

[RedViperHD]

Quality is subjective. Most people who hate the show judge it for its writing, but I judge it for everything, such as acting, set designs, visuals, choreography, and basically how it makes me feel. I like the show, you don't, and I respect that. But there is no way either of us could prove the other wrong. It's just our opinion.

That is true and I'm happy you're still all in for GOT. But we can compare things like story arcs and character development in comparison to other shows, films, books, and our own expectations and then start to quanitfy and assess the quality of the show and the writing. It's true- some people just like Danielle Steel novels. They are not wrong to like it. They are not bad people (or at least not horrible.) But we can compare and judge and make a critical assessment of the quality of Danielle Steel's novels in comparison to other classic and modern works in an attempt to understand what it is that makes Danielle Steel novels such giant pieces of crap. It's a little like that line from the ending of the Theatrical Cut of Bladerunner, I think those that were disappointed by last nights episode are just trying to grasp "what happened and where its going and how much time it all has left."

And yes, I've now had two posts where mentioning the Theatrical Cut of Bladerunner and Highlander 2 felt necessary when trying to explain my emotions regarding last nights episode.

Edited June 16, 2015 by RedViperHD

[RedViperHD]

I think the silly skeletons and Drogon's facial animation bring the show closer to jumping the shark than a bit of bad pussy - but then, as Dragon in the North has noted, just above, much of this is down to opinion.

I asked my wife if Drogon's face looked silly (she doesn't watch GoTs at all) and she just said,'Nah, it looks like the dragon is happy to see it's mommy.'

I said 'but it's a dragon, like a crocodile that breathes fire, not like our puppy, it shouldn't think and emote like our puppy!'

Wife says, 'Your taking this show a little bit too seriously.' :D

Hahahahaha, classic.

[Hippocras]

I gave it a 9.

Overall a more consistent outing compared to earlier episodes this season. The high moments were higher (walk of atonement, Arya killing Trant, Theon killing Myranda) and the low moments had some redeeming qualities. Since people have talked at length about the former, and I don't see the usual positive nitpicking thread around, I'll focus on the latter.

The rushed Battle of Winterfell was no high point for sure, but I must be the only one who enjoyed Stannis in it. People seem to be divided into those who love Stannis and thus hated it and those who don't like or don't care for him who didn't mind it or even enjoyed because of that fact. I instantly grew to like Stannis as a show-watcher first, and his portrayal in this episode emphasized everything I liked about him in the first place. His grim, stoic acceptance of the cavalcade of bad news that would have visibly broken most other people. His grim, stoic acceptance of the fact that he would lose when the Bolton cavalry descended upon him; no ranting, no panic, just drawing his sword, accepting the inevitable, and going down fighting. Killing those two men with a gimp leg. Grim, stoic acceptance of his death via Brienne, excellent final words that summarized his character. I'll still never forgive him for Shireen and he deserved what he got, but I'll remember him as one of my favorite villains. The post-Castle Black Stannis's camp subplot needed more buildup, but I for one liked the oppressive, snowballing sense of futility and inevitability that came to a head in this episode. (One of the calamities that befell him this episode, such as losing all his cavalry, should have been before he burned Shireen. That should have been the catalyst. The reason why this happened should not have been plot-plated-hermetically-sealed-bubbled, Villain Sue Ramsay.)

Dorne was Dorne, and the "bad pussy" line was the most cringeworthy line in the series so far. I liked two lines said by Jaime: a repeat of his arc words, "we don't choose who we love", and his "what I'm trying to explain... uh, very awkwardly", which echoed what Tyrion said to Sansa two seasons before, which illustrates how similar the two Lannister brothers are.

"For the Watch" was pretty good. Walk of atonement was very nicely done. Loved Theon and Sansa. Didn't like Trant's pedophilication but Arya going Tarantino on him provided some much-needed catharsis. HoBaW was okay. Really didn't like how they jerked us around about Benjen, a character I'm dying to meet again.

I didn't like all the cliffhangers, but I'm not docking points for that because it seems like they did it that way to minimize book spoilers. Other than the Stannis storyline, which zoomed past the books (and the path will likely be very different in the books; I have no doubt that Stannis will be defeated eventually, but I don't know if it's going to be at Winterfell), no significant spoilers. Not really counting Myrcella's death or the Robert Strong = Mountain reveal as actual spoilers, because per Maggy's prophecy we all know Tommen and Myrcella are doomed, it's just a question of when; and only contrarians who like hearing themselves talk ever seriously doubted Gregorstein.

The way the Jon Snow death was handled was my worst fear, as I think this sort of cliffhanger is cheap storytelling. But I'm willing to forgive that if their motivation is to copy how ADwD ended and not pre-empt WoW. If Jon Snow never comes back in either the books or the show, I'd be very disillusioned with the series and lose a lot of interest. If Jon Snow comes back in the books but not the show, that would turn me against the show, though I'd respond by not talking about the show altogether than become a tedious detractor on these forums. I'm still expecting him to come back on both mediums and that the post-interview comments were lies intended to protect the secret, much like the show Revenge did earlier this year when it came to a dead character coming back. The show generally sticks very closely to the books when it comes to Big Moments (such as the walk of atonement in this very episode), and I can't imagine a scenario in which Jon Snow comes back in the books but his presence isn't essential to upcoming Big Moments in the final books.

It doesn't have to be a lie for Jon to come back. Kit said he was not back "next season". He did not say he would not be back ever. He did say he was dead, which I guess seemed likely in the books too. So we are looking at some form or resurection via magic for him - be it fire magic, ice magic, or both if he comes back season 7, and in season 6 we will probably get Ghost.

[RedViperHD]

It doesn't have to be a lie for Jon to come back. Kit said he was not back "next season". He did not say he would not be back ever. He did say he was dead, which I guess seemed likely in the books too. So we are looking at some form or resurection via magic for him - be it fire magic, ice magic, or both if he comes back season 7, and in season 6 we will probably get Ghost.

Maybe you're right, but at this point, I'll believe it when I see it. Everytime I think the story is actually more complex, it just turns out to be even more "simple" and disappointing and stupefying than I ever thought possible.