lancerman Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Many of the critics have never read the books, they are basing their opinion of the show only on what they have seen and compare it to other shows. Don't get me wrong, GoT is an awesome show. If I had never read the books I would probably think it was great television. But the truth is that it doesn't hold a candle to ASOIAF. If you have read the books and think that the show is a faithful and worthy adaption, I seriously question your honesty. Not that I completely disagree with you. But I could copy and paste that post and plug any film and book adaptation and largely it would be true. There are some things where it wouldn't but that's a rarity and usualy because of things they did that fans of ASOIAF wouldn't want to happen in an adaptation (example Dexter season 2/3/4 were better than the books, but only because the books got weird and the show ignored everything. Nobody would like that here. Jaws better than the book. But only because they made they took out any cerebral parts of the book and dumbed down all the complex main characters, changing their arcs, so that the two leads were more likeable. I don't think anyone wants that to happen here. Most people can't get over Tysha not being mentioned in season 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedViperHD Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I honestly don't care that Brienne went to Winterfell, or that Jaime went to Dorne, or Sansa at Winterfell, or Tyrion in Meereen. I DO object to the way they handled the storylines when they got there. Why I bring the books into this is because apologists constantly spew "Source material sucked, show is only bad cuz GRRM can't write." If the show is willing to make such huge alterations, why can't they do something with them? They could have improved the things that many people complain about, but instead we get a ridiculous illogical plot that simply makes it worse. The show isn't bad because of the source material, it's awful because the deviations from the source material didn't improve anything. I agree with that though. Sansa was in Winterfell this season for no other reason than to have her character get raped every night and that was for no other reason but shock value and those decisions belong to nobody else except D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I mean, let's put Sansa in Winterfell, that has great potential. Sansa in the North is something that makes for a wonderful storyline. The Starks have been scattered, and now they're coming home. And what do the writers do? They fumble, and give Sansa the plot of Jeyne Poole because... Because Reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Merlan Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I honestly don't care that Brienne went to Winterfell, or that Jaime went to Dorne, or Sansa at Winterfell, or Tyrion in Meereen.I DO object to the way they handled the storylines when they got there. Why I bring the books into this is because apologists constantly spew "Source material sucked, show is only bad cuz GRRM can't write." If the show is willing to make such huge alterations, why can't they do something with them? They could have improved the things that many people complain about, but instead we get a ridiculous illogical plot that simply makes it worse. The show isn't bad because of the source material, it's awful because the deviations from the source material didn't improve anything.Yes.The last two books have their flaws and I was looking forward to getting a streamlined, faster paced adaption of the "good" material. Instead they cut out almost everything I hold dear and replaced it by something, well... very flawed material, that is mostly worse than the bad things in Martins books.I don't dislike the show because it deviates from the source material, I dislike it because the changes are so utterly stupid. I've been an apologist for season 4, but this underwhelming and disappointing season drove me over the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCommanderHoss Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) disappointed but was still entertained Edited June 16, 2015 by LordCommanderHoss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) Brienne's story in the Riverlands won't appeal to fans. Cool, change it, have her explore her arc in The North instead, that should be interesting. Oh, you put her in a tower watching a window waiting for a candle for two months, because you needed her to be near Winterfell so she could kill Stannis, I get it. Freeing Sansa would totally work too, because those 1,500 Bolton soldiers are playing pattycake with Dany's Unsullied in some bunker until we need them for something. Edited June 16, 2015 by Lady Blackmont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I mean, let's put Sansa in Winterfell, that has great potential. Sansa in the North is something that makes for a wonderful storyline. The Starks have been scattered, and now they're coming home. And what do the writers do? They fumble, and give Sansa the plot of Jeyne Poole because... Because Reasons. Okay lets just take this one thing. The entire point of Jeyne Poole being in Winterfell in the books was that they passing her off as a Stark daughter. If in the books the Boltons got their hands on Arya and Sansa, it literally would have pretty much been the same story as Jeyne Poole because Poole exists as a stand in for them. So now that you say Sansa got the "plot of Jeyne Poole because.. Because Reasons". Well that's the most logical thing in the world you could surmise would happen if Sansa was in Winterfell at that time. That's exactly what Ramsay and Roose would have had happen if they had any of the Stark girls. That's the reason. It makes the most sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The book story is better.The show writers can write.This season they couldn't. I don't know what it is that drove them, since they were extremely well at adapting the story in earlier seasons, and at least were able to adapt certain scenes very well in season 4, but this season was a wreck. Let's see where they go when they truly offed Jon and the North plot and focus on a magicless intrigue chamber play. Perhaps that is what will save the show as such. But like this it is doomed to fail.Stop casting book characters or try to squeeze in book moments. Go your own way now. It will be clumsy to still have certain book moments without the construct that led to them.Either go completely different, or go back to an adaptation starting after Joffrey's death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Because Sansa getting raped is totally better than Sansa arriving triumphant with an army from the Vale.They could have put her in Winterfell without raping her. They could have given her agency. She could have waited outside the walls with Brienne for all I care. They have the power to change some things, but not others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Storm Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The book story is better. The show writers can write. This season they couldn't. I don't know what it is that drove them, since they were extremely well at adapting the story in earlier seasons, and at least were able to adapt certain scenes very well in season 4, but this season was a wreck. Let's see where they go when they truly offed Jon and the North plot and focus on a magicless intrigue chamber play. Perhaps that is what will save the show as such. But like this it is doomed to fail. Stop casting book characters or try to squeeze in book moments. Go your own way now. It will be clumsy to still have certain book moments without the construct that led to them. Either go completely different, or go back to an adaptation starting after Joffrey's death. :agree: It's getting annoying when HBO goes and changes every single thing nearly. Sure they kept some scenes intact but that hurts it. They should go completely different or go back to the adaptation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Because Sansa getting raped is totally better than Sansa arriving triumphant with an army from the Vale. They could have put her in Winterfell without raping her. They could have given her agency. She could have waited outside the walls with Brienne for all I care. They have the power to change some things, but not others? So your solution is change the Vale plot, change the Winterfell plot, do you want to keep Jeyne Poole to or do we ditch her, because now that effects Theon (unless he just escapes by himself). How does that effect Stannis? Does he still die? Does his army still loose. Because right now the only big changes we can see are that Sansa got taken from the Vale to be Jeyne Poole and Brienne was there because they cut her LSH arc and gave her a chance to off Stannis after he already lost. So from the books the biggest change their was Sansa being Jeyne Poole. We have no idea what the Vale's play in the books is yet or if that is even happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Storm Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) So your solution is change the Vale plot, change the Winterfell plot, do you want to keep Jeyne Poole to or do we ditch her, because now that effects Theon (unless he just escapes by himself). How does that effect Stannis? Does he still die? Does his army still loose. Because right now the only big changes we can see are that Sansa got taken from the Vale to be Jeyne Poole and Brienne was there because they cut her LSH arc and gave her a chance to off Stannis after he already lost. So from the books the biggest change their was Sansa being Jeyne Poole. We have no idea what the Vale's play in the books is yet or if that is even happening. No we've seen tons of big changes all over the place. Gendry never gets sold to Mel and Stannis takes over Winterfell and Brienne never meets Sandor Clegene much less fights him. Nor does Brienne ever meet any of the girls yet and has yet to come close to meeting Stannis as of yet. Jaime never goes to Dorne and his daughter is okay in the book just badly wounded on the face. Edited June 16, 2015 by Eldric Storm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Like some other people have said, if you want to change half the things that happen and keep the other half, you end up having characters do things for completely irrational reasons. They either need to write their own story, and follow the story of the books. Make a choice, you can't have both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) But the only thing show apologists can say (over and over) is 'those who don't like the show are a bunch of butthurt rabid nerds who don't like the changes D&D made'. Their argument is, 'people who don't like the show should leave forever and never post again [because I can't come up with a proper argument to counter theirs.It's quite entertaining actually. Thats right KBF, they're offended by the critique- annnnnnnnddddd then go and viciously attack those who didn't like the show. The only reason why I'm "butt hurt," is the time I wasted sitting on it watching the damn thing and waiting for it to get better. Exactly, my critique of the show has nothing to do with the books. I've invested a lot in the show, and I hate to see it continue on with some of the things that went on this season like the Sand Snakes and more Ramsay being Ramsay and more Brienne overcoming everything. On a sidenote, I studied Cinematography in college and I've seen Bladerunner about 100 times. Amazing cinematography, I have hope for this sequel to Bladerunner with Ryan Gosling is as awesome as the original but it will have to live up to an absolute masterpiece of cinematography. Oh gods, that is right- they're doing a re-do. :o The only thing that comforted me with the Madmax re-do was the same man doing it agan and Tom Hardy. Edited June 16, 2015 by Alia of the knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedViperHD Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) The book story is better. The show writers can write. This season they couldn't. I don't know what it is that drove them, since they were extremely well at adapting the story in earlier seasons, and at least were able to adapt certain scenes very well in season 4, but this season was a wreck. Let's see where they go when they truly offed Jon and the North plot and focus on a magicless intrigue chamber play. Perhaps that is what will save the show as such. But like this it is doomed to fail. Stop casting book characters or try to squeeze in book moments. Go your own way now. It will be clumsy to still have certain book moments without the construct that led to them. Either go completely different, or go back to an adaptation starting after Joffrey's death. I tend to agree but I feel like I need to say that books and films are two different mediums. Creating a show is more difficult so I tend to give it more leeway than books where you have all the time and pages in the world to create your story. In a show, you need to create interesting and complex characters with arcs just like you need to do in a book but you also have to throw on top of it visual language of cinema to it. I mean cinematography, art direction, camera movement, editing, colors, use of space, lenses, you need to manage a set of thousands of people and still have to rely on other people (actors and performers to do a good job.) It's like writing a book x 1,000. That being said, you can only give so much leeway because films and shows still need to be critiqued to assess their value. I think this season was a disaster. Again, watching Ramsay rape Sansa every night and mindlessly torture people again and again is about as entertaining and artistic as an Eli Roth movie. I don't get it. I thought I was watching Game of Thrones but at moments it felt like I was watching Saw. Watching the Boltons has become like watching Patrick Bateman in American Psycho, only without all the humor to it. I feel like the plots had no real arcs and the characters had less development than seasons before and as far as the technical aspects go, I was umoved by many of the scenes that I should have cried or jumped out of my seat, and I have to say that I think it was because they were filmed poorly. An example is the Olly character. To me, that character just fell flat and he felt like a weird little child murderer from Children of the Corn and less of a character that I felt sympathy for. Maybe it was the lack of screen time with him and Jon? Rome spent all of season 1 establishing that Caesar was a father to Brutus which is what in part made that final scene so emotional. They even had close up reaction shots of Brutus as the other senators stabbed him. Olly just sort of appeared and without any emphasis on his characters emotions, he just came off wrong. Again, I give leeway for shock value in shows because another element to shooting a show/film is that you have to appeal to a wider audience. In a book, you have more leeway to appeal to niche audiences. Again, that being said, I thought overall this season was a decline, and my rating for the show reflects more of my opinion for the entire season than it does just this single episode. Edited June 16, 2015 by RedViperHD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) DP Edited June 16, 2015 by Alia of the knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan Whitebeard Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The ratings have been bad as well, certainly worse than last season Sorry, but that's not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Game_of_Thrones_episodes Total live viewership for Season 4: 68, 4 millions (6.84 millions per episode) Total live viewership for Season 5: 68, 8 millions (6.88 millions per episode) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Bring in Euron, some more Reach factions, Mountain clans, cut Bran, leave Rickon as possible player, make Dany less deus ex machina with her dragons, focus on KL and the Iron throne, who wins, who looses. Change every outcome from the book, leave the White Walkers completely in the dark for the next season and only be seen as an imagined threat to the world. Leave it possible for them to kill all (unseen) in the very last episode, by showing snow falling in KL and the Blackwater freezing. That I might watch.The idea of prophecies and Songs of Ice and Fire gone and replaced by a game of thrones without heroes, but schemers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedViperHD Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 IF Sansa, and that is a big IF, needed to be at Winterfell for some reason to advance her plot or character then I can understand. But even if she NEEDED to be at Winterfell this season, my question is why did she HAVE to be raped every night? Some might say that she needed to be at Winterfell to learn about Bran and Rickon. Weak but ok, I'll buy it. Why did she have to be raped every night? It added or subtracted nothing to either Ramsay or Sansa that we hadn't already seen from either of them. It was pure shock value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan Whitebeard Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Bring in Euron, some more Reach factions, Mountain clans, cut Bran, leave Rickon as possible player, make Dany less deus ex machina with her dragons, focus on KL and the Iron throne, who wins, who looses. Change every outcome from the book, leave the White Walkers completely in the dark for the next season and only be seen as an imagined threat to the world. Leave it possible for them to kill all (unseen) in the very last episode, by showing snow falling in KL and the Blackwater freezing. That I might watch. The idea of prophecies and Songs of Ice and Fire gone and replaced by a game of thrones without heroes, but schemers. Well Euron and The Reach are pretty much confirmed for next season, so it's a good start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.