[Poll] How would you rate episode 510?

[Woman of War]

But that's the point at that part of their story. Dany is lost and is trying to find her way again. That's the point of the Daznak's Pit scene when she embraces her heritage for the first time in a long while. Tyrion is a mess and quite reasonably so given what happened in ASOS.

I didn't like Feast at all on first read. Like you I wanted to read about Tyrion particularly. There are problems with it but on reread you do start to notice the qualities in it.

There are maybe one or two too many Brienne chapters going nowhere and we probably didn't need to see Areo Hotah's or Arys Oakheart's POV in Dorne. And in Dance we could have had Quentyn turn up in Meereen without his POV in getting there after establishing through Dorne chapters that he is going there. There are problems but there are also a number of genuinely great chapters and sequences. Some editing tweaks and they wouldn't be that far off books 1-3, though clearly that ship has sailed.

I'd sign every word you wrote about Feast and Dance. I loved both books with the exception of, well, some chapters.

And I was really disappointed that they did not present my favorite character's, Tyrion's, descent into moral and emotional misery in the show, the more a pity since they have an actor with Dinklage who could have given us all that and yet return to the complex antihero character Tyrion we will root for when the story goes on. A character may have been down there and yet he can decide to do the right thing - and is not beyond that artificial moral event horizon lesser books try to sell to us. In some undefined future I would love to read an interview with D&D why they decided to take away from Tyrion and from Dinklage - beyond the always working and certainly realistic excuse lack of screen time.

There are other issues like why is Ellaria not the voice of peace and reason, meaning Martin's voice, but the voice of revenge? Will they give her a slow and cruel learning arc at the expense of one or more of her daughters? A character who seeks revenge over all is doomed in Martin's universe, one of the most important author's messages. And readers who cheer for cheap catharic revenge will be disappointed.

But it is the message, the spirit, that has to be kept in, not the details. Some of us love some of the characters and their story while others, who would have thought, love other elements. We all have different favorite characters and of course their respective story is the essential one that should be sacrosanct.

Some changes are necessary, given that there are seven series and, who would have thought, 500 fans have 1000 different opinions here.

I e.g. love the changes done to Cersei, she is better and more complex in the show. I believe the changes done to Sansa are a good thing or at least will pay off in the end. The actress is great where she is but would be a miscast as little girl charming hollow boys. I do not miss much of the Ironborn apart from Asha. The animalistic sex appeal of one eyed pirates killing women is lost on me. Remember that dance group where the female dancers landed right on the erect penises of the male ones? Ouch!!!! I can do without. Ridiculous writing from Martin's side, sorry. Talk about sexposition in the show! A big LOL! Actually i do not think that showing sex and naked people, called "nudity" in US America-speak, is anyhow negative. Like everything else it is only bad when poorly done - which sometimes happened in the show. But there would have been no excuse for including that disastrous dance scene from the books.

And what is "gratitious"??? Gratitious dinner descriptions, elaboration of costumes and dresses (I love the costume design in the show), gratitious sex, gratitious architecture descriptions - everything that puts flesh on the bare story bones is gratitious. Everything that makes a story, books or series, come alive. Puritans stay away!

I have some issues with the books and yet I love them more than most I have ever read.

And I have some issues with the show. And yet I love it.

Maybe the last episode was not more than a nine due to the overuse of cliffhangers, certainly something done in favor of the author, so he can tell his own story first.

But I gave it a ten since I am thoroughly annoyed about the insulting, poor mannered and pubertarian schoolyard bully way some people treat the showmakers in this forum, not necessarily in this thread. (Though I would not know, I have the worst on ignore ;) )The showmakers are after all artists like me, only on another field. Why would they ever take any critic serious that personally insults them and calls them names. I guess they have given up reading this forum at all, the bridges will be burned by now.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Woman of War

[kissdbyfire]

There are good and bad points in the show and books, bad being more noticeable with this season and the latest books than prior ones. Overall, though, where it is heading still has me hooked - I wanna' know if the White Walkers are going to save Westeros from all those yucky people, or if the yucky people will prevail :DWhat direction of the show specifically has you disillusioned, Lady Blackmont?Re your chaotic ladder complaints, I don't think they are really fair. I think the talk was in line with LFs show and book character.What I find really strange, is that many people think the show has become somehow darker and more shocking than the books. I never realised just how bleak this saga was, or exactly where I thought it was going, until I read the books. The show may do some things for shock and awe, but these scenes are like the show sex scenes vs GRRMs sex scenes - the show isn't quite as deeply dark and cynical as the books are. The show likes to show boobs and blood - the books like to relish in human creepiness and despair.

I beg to differ. The books have plenty of moments of love, tenderness, longing, etc interspersed with the horrors, but the show stripped the story of all of these moments. Characters don't even mention one another. Jon and Sam's convo was [another] missed opportunity. Instead of having Jon talk about Arya, we have him say, 'yo bro, you banging that?' Jon and now Sansa know Bran and Rickon are alive. Did they forget?

[ummester]

I beg to differ. The books have plenty of moments of love, tenderness, longing, etc interspersed with the horrors, but the show stripped the story of all of these moments. Characters don't even mention one another. Jon and Sam's convo was [another] missed opportunity. Instead of having Jon talk about Arya, we have him say, 'yo bro, you banging that?' Jon and now Sansa know Bran and Rickon are alive. Did they forget?

The books start with some moments of tenderness, as does the show - there isn't much left by book 5. Sure, Jon may still remember Arya tenderly in the books, but his memory is not the reality of what she became, so that is kind of sad, from the holistic POV of the whole saga. Arya is lost, Jon's memory is all that remains of the nice girl. And Jon's memories have died with him, in both books and show.

[kissdbyfire]

The books start with some moments of tenderness, as does the show - there isn't much left by book 5. Sure, Jon may still remember Arya tenderly in the books, but his memory is not the reality of what she became, so that is kind of sad, from the holistic POV of the whole saga. Arya is lost, Jon's memory is all that remains of the nice girl. And Jon's memories have died with him, in both books and show.

I don't see it that way. We can agree to disagree. :)

[Dolorous Gabe]

I'd sign every word you wrote about Feast and Dance. I loved both books with the exception of, well, some chapters.

And I was really disappointed that they did not present my favorite character's, Tyrion's, descent into moral and emotional misery in the show, the more a pity since they have an actor with Dinklage who could have given us all that and yet return to the complex antihero character Tyrion we will root for when the story goes on. A character may have been down there and yet he can decide to do the right thing - and is not beyond that artificial moral event horizon lesser books try to sell to us. In some undefined future I would love to read an interview with D&D why they decided to take away from Tyrion and from Dinklage - beyond the always working and certainly realistic excuse lack of screen time.

There are other issues like why is Ellaria not the voice of peace and reason, meaning Martin's voice, but the voice of revenge? Will they give her a slow and cruel learning arc at the expense of one or more of her daughters? A character who seeks revenge over all is doomed in Martin's universe, one of the most important author's messages. And readers who cheer for cheap catharic revenge will be disappointed.

But it is the message, the spirit, that has to be kept in, not the details. Some of us love some of the characters and their story while others, who would have thought, love other elements. We all have different favorite characters and of course their respective story is the essential one that should be sacrosanct.

Some changes are necessary, given that there are seven series and, who would have thought, 500 fans have 1000 different opinions here.

I e.g. love the changes done to Cersei, she is better and more complex in the show. I believe the changes done to Sansa are a good thing or at least will pay off in the end. The actress is great where she is but would be a miscast as little girl charming hollow boys. I do not miss much of the Ironborn apart from Asha. The animalistic sex appeal of one eyed pirates killing women is lost on me. Remember that dance group where the female dancers landed right on the erect penises of the male ones? Ouch!!!! I can do without. Ridiculous writing from Martin's side, sorry. Talk about sexposition in the show! A big LOL! Actually i do not think that showing sex and naked people, called "nudity" in US America-speak, is anyhow negative. Like everything else it is only bad when poorly done - which sometimes happened in the show. But there would have been no excuse for including that disastrous dance scene from the books.

And what is "gratitious"??? Gratitious dinner descriptions, elaboration of costumes and dresses (I love the costume design in the show), gratitious sex, gratitious architecture descriptions - everything that puts flesh on the bare story bones is gratitious. Everything that makes a story, books or series, come alive. Puritans stay away!

I have some issues with the books and yet I love them more than most I have ever read.

And I have some issues with the show. And yet I love it.

Maybe the last episode was not more than a nine due to the overuse of cliffhangers, certainly something done in favor of the author, so he can tell his own story first.

But I gave it a ten since I am thoroughly annoyed about the insulting, poor mannered and pubertarian schoolyard bully way some people treat the showmakers in this forum, not necessarily in this thread. (Though I would not know, I have the worst on ignore ;) )The showmakers are after all artists like me, only on another field. Why would they ever take any critic serious that personally insults them and calls them names. I guess they have given up reading this forum at all, the bridges will be burned by now.

Changes do have to be made. I've never pretended otherwise. I loved seasons 1-3, and 4 certainly had its moments that kept hope alive in me. That hope has diminished this season in the extreme. I hated a lot of their choices and don't feel the spirit of the books is being adhered to. Many plot points may be similar or the same but to me it doesn't feel like GRRM's voice. It feels like D&D's voice is being imparted into it, and I'm finding their voice considerably less interesting. I gave the finale a 3/10. It isn't catering to what I would like the series to be and even on the level they are aiming at it isn't particularly good IMO. The Hardhome episode was very good, even the stories outside of the titular battle sequence seemed to be done much better than in other episodes this season. Only Hardhome got over a 6 from me this year. 6 used to be my very lowest rating.

Regarding Cersei, I wouldn't necessarily say she's more complex in the show. They just haven't portrayed her losing her mind despite putting in the Maggy The Frog prophecy. She has just continued scheming with a level head. I would also point out what happened with Shae, which is a major part of what made me start to lose faith in what D&D are doing. I always understood why they made Shae into a more genuinely caring person. It would have been harder to portray her as her books counterpart without making Tyrion look foolish (and we can't have that, can we? :P ), however having changed her, her fate should have been different and should have fit her character (not only that, but having omitted the Tysha reveal they could have made Shae into his Tysha, since their love was portrayed as genuine. Had Tywin hanged her as he said he would, it would have given far greater motivation for Tyrion to seek him out after his release). The point I'm making is that if D&D stick to whatever Cersei's fate is in the books, the alteration in her portrayal is going to affect how that comes across.

I cannot agree about Sansa. I despise what they have done to her.

Context matters, which means D&D's choices matter, and their choices are quickly getting worse in my opinion.

[Lady Blackmont]

Yep, Shae is really where I lost faith. I mean, they make her actually love Tyrion, and then they have her testify, okay, I guess she was threatened in the show's world. So why did she pick up the knife? Hell, I was half expecting tyrion to knock her out, followed by Cersei hanging her next season.

Tyrion can do no wrong, and thus those around him must make irrational decisions.

[ummester]

Yep, Shae is really where I lost faith. I mean, they make her actually love Tyrion, and then they have her testify, okay, I guess she was threatened in the show's world. So why did she pick up the knife? Hell, I was half expecting tyrion to knock her out, followed by Cersei hanging her next season.

I thought Shae picked up the knife because she could see Tyrion was pissed with her and she was trying to defend herself.

[Lady Blackmont]

I interpreted his facial expression as more along the lines of shock. And he showed no anger when fighting her off or strangling her.

Book!Shae had to deal with a very angry Tyrion, and she was totally calm about it. She tried to seduce him.

[Cas Stark]

I thought Shae picked up the knife because she could see Tyrion was pissed with her and she was trying to defend herself.

From what? These two characters were in ENDLESS scenes blabbing to each other every week, but, LMAO, a battle to death and neither one says a word? No confrontation, no explanations? Sure, sure. reasons.

[ummester]

From what? These two characters were in ENDLESS scenes blabbing to each other every week, but, LMAO, a battle to death and neither one says a word? No confrontation, no explanations? Sure, sure. reasons.

Just watched that bit again - they have a stare off.

She looks shocked

He looks mad.

She looks scared.

He looks like he is going to cry.

She looks angry and picks up the knife.

I got the feeling that Tyrion was so butthurt by her betrayal that he'd been tipped over that crime of passion edge. I though Shae saw it on his face, probably because she was the kind of woman that was used to reading mixes of anger and lust on a dudes face, and decided to strike preemptively. I thought that just from seeing the show, before I read the book.

Logically, he was the one who had a reason to be pissed at her, not her at him, by that stage - so why would she attack unless she was afraid of what he was about to do to her?

Edited June 19, 2015 by ummester

[Lady Blackmont]

I don't think the writers care to give them logical motives. We saw that this year with LF.

[Cas Stark]

Just watched that bit again - they have a stare off.

She looks shocked

He looks mad.

She looks scared.

He looks like he is going to cry.

She looks angry and picks up the knife.

I got the feeling that Tyrion was so butthurt by her betrayal that he'd been tipped over that crime of passion edge. I though Shae saw it on his face, probably because she was the kind of woman that was used to reading mixes of anger and lust on a dudes face, and decided to strike preemptively. I thought that just from seeing the show, before I read the book.

Logically, he was the one who had a reason to be pissed at her, not her at him, by that stage - so why would she attack unless she was afraid of what he was about to do to her?

Logically she wouldn't attack him at all. She would explain how the Lannisters forced her to testify. But, the only way to make her murder not really Tyrion's fault is if none of that is ever said and she attacks him and he kills her in self defense, thus, she never says anything, only decides to try to kill him. LOL.

[ummester]

Logically she wouldn't attack him at all. She would explain how the Lannisters forced her to testify. But, the only way to make her murder not really Tyrion's fault is if none of that is ever said and she attacks him and he kills her in self defense, thus, she never says anything, only decides to try to kill him. LOL.

Although I agree that the show does whitewash Tyrion - especially this season - I didn't get the feeling that Tyrion was defending himself against Shae in that scene. I got the feeling, throughout the entire scene, that Tyrion was the aggressor with most of the power and that Shae was the victim from the start.

[Lady Blackmont]

She had no agency whatsoever. It's not like anyone (Varys maybe?) would be willing to send her across the narrow sea. She was Tyrion's prisoner and victim. For sure.

[Cas Stark]

She had no agency whatsoever. It's not like anyone (Varys maybe?) would be willing to send her across the narrow sea. She was Tyrion's prisoner and victim. For sure.

If only someone had offered her a ship and a giant bag of diamonds or something.......

[Lord Eddard]

Hahahahahahahaha. Yes. When you are wildly successful at making a popular show, you can't find work ever again.

Yes, definitely :lol: D&D have really messed up and will surely be unemployed from now on. I mean, most successful season ever, most watched episode ever, a show that is universally loved and praised and an author who has become a multi-millionaire because of it. But apparently they forced said author into selling them his ending and butchered the amazing storylines from Feast and Dance like Quentyn, Tyrion's wondrous wanderings, the industrious Queen Dany in marvellous Meereen and gallant Aegon... those hacks!

[Dolorous Gabe]

If only someone had offered her a ship and a giant bag of diamonds or something.......

Indeed. Clearly she wouldn't take it though, because she loves him so much and had become protective of Sansa.

And then...

"It was Tyrion and Sansa. They killed Joffrey"

[Lady Blackmont]

Someone made a stupid comment, get over it.

[Lady Blackmont]

And then genius LF tells Cersei that he has Sansa and has married her off to Ramsay.

LF has brilliant schemes in motion and then... Fuck it. I guess I'll ditch my wards and run to KL. Oh, and the Boltons are overtly giving you the finger Cersei. They seem to be marrying a criminal wanted by the crown.

This is so much better than the books could ever have been.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Lady Blackmont

[Lord Eddard]

And then genius LF tells Cersei that he has Sansa and has married her off to Ramsay.

LF has brilliant schemes in motion and then... Fuck it. I guess I'll ditch my wards and run to KL, oh, and the Boltons are overtly giving you the finger Cersei. They seem to be marrying a criminal wanted by the crown.

This is so much better than the books could ever have been.

See, I even agree with you, that was strange and not very logical. F*** it, i say it, it was stupid or at least I didn't understand his motivations behind it at all.

But I applaud the decision to send Sansa to Winterfell instead of leaving her at the Vale diddling her thumbs. But.. they could and shoulöd have sent her in a different way.