Do your duty.... Or don't? (BOOK & TV SPOILERS)

[Robb_Warged]

There's considerable evidence showing that Sandor is alive. There's zero for Stannis.

In the books or show? I'd say in the books there's definitely reason to believe Sandor is alive (gravedigger), but in the show I can't think of any thing hinting he's alive. I'd actually say the cut-away from showing Brienne's swing hitting Stannis is more of a hint Stannis survived than Sandor's final scene

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

It's respectable in the sense that he faced his death with bravery and didn't beg and plead. He understood why Brienne wanted his head, and he respected it.

For fuck's sake some of you are so goddamn petty about every. little. thing.

I agree. I HATED the outcome of the battle, because it feels like they just wanted to screw him, but I'm glad he owed to his crimes there, and was ready to die.

[Stannistician]

Only way he lives is if was allowed to TAKE THE BLACK.

With no army, no wife, no witch, no heirs, no money, he has nothing to live for.

I find it funny that everyone is forgetting that HE LOST THE BATTLE IN THE BOOK. He DIED in the book! This is exactly what the book led us to believe, and it happened, and you *still* are living in denial.

Do you hate GRRM for causing Stannis the Mancrush to lose the battle of Winterfell? Because it's canon. Fucking confirmed.

But if that's true that the Pink Letter was correct in stating that Stannis was dead, then he cannot possibly order Shireen's burning. Shireen is alive and well at the wall when the Pink Letter arrives. So which one is it? Does he kill his own child, or does he die at the battle for WF?

[Robb_Warged]

Only way he lives is if was allowed to TAKE THE BLACK.

With no army, no wife, no witch, no heirs, no money, he has nothing to live for.

I find it funny that everyone is forgetting that HE LOST THE BATTLE IN THE BOOK. He DIED in the book! This is exactly what the book led us to believe, and it happened, and you *still* are living in denial.

Do you hate GRRM for causing Stannis the Mancrush to lose the battle of Winterfell? Because it's canon. Fucking confirmed.

I thought the (TWOW preview chapter spoiler)

timeline of the TWOW-Theon preview chapter confirmed the Pink Letter's declaration of Stannis being dead can't be accurate?

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Sorry guys, he's dead.

What is the point of keeping him alive anymore? What could he possibly do? D+D never liked him, and ever since he burned Shireen, his (TV) fanbase collapsed. This is the perfect opportunity to get rid of him, and he ended it on a respectable note.

No way Brienne would let him live. She swore a solemn oath, and she takes her oaths seriously. She loved Renly and also really, really hated Stannis, never mind she supported a traitor and usurper (unlike Robb and Joffrey's supporters, Renly's knew he didn't have a legit claim, but did not care.)

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

But if that's true that the Pink Letter was correct in stating that Stannis was dead, then he cannot possibly order Shireen's burning. Shireen is alive and well at the wall when the Pink Letter arrives. So which one is it? Does he kill his own child, or does he die at the battle for WF?

Simple. He doesn't lose the battle in the books, or they straight up lied.

The reason why Stannis lost in the show? Becuase they cut the Northern lords. That, and because they wanted it to happen.

[KingBlackfyre]

Only way he lives is if was allowed to TAKE THE BLACK.

With no army, no wife, no witch, no heirs, no money, he has nothing to live for.

I find it funny that everyone is forgetting that HE LOST THE BATTLE IN THE BOOK. He DIED in the book! This is exactly what the book led us to believe, and it happened, and you *still* are living in denial.

Do you hate GRRM for causing Stannis the Mancrush to lose the battle of Winterfell? Because it's canon. Fucking confirmed.

By who dumb and dumber?

[KingBlackfyre]

Sorry guys, he's dead.

What is the point of keeping him alive anymore? What could he possibly do? D+D never liked him, and ever since he burned Shireen, his (TV) fanbase collapsed. This is the perfect opportunity to get rid of him, and he ended it on a respectable note.

No way Brienne would let him live. She swore a solemn oath, and she takes her oaths seriously. She loved Renly and also really, really hated Stannis, never mind she supported a traitor and usurper (unlike Robb and Joffrey's supporters, Renly's knew he didn't have a legit claim, but did not care.)

that kind of characterization would apply in the books but in the show I doubt any one remembers or cares

[Spilt Pea Soup]

I thought the (TWOW preview chapter spoiler)

timeline of the TWOW-Theon preview chapter confirmed the Pink Letter's declaration of Stannis being dead can't be accurate?

No, the timelines overlap. Part of the wonder and mystery of the clusterfuck that is ASOIAF's later works.

But if that's true that the Pink Letter was correct in stating that Stannis was dead, then he cannot possibly order Shireen's burning. Shireen is alive and well at the wall when the Pink Letter arrives. So which one is it? Does he kill his own child, or does he die at the battle for WF?

He doesn't order her killing from afar. D&D never said that GRRM told them it was Stannis who ordered it. They left it vague. So it wasn't a spoiler, was it? hahaha.

i think the direction the book is going is that Mel sacrifices Shireen in order to raise Stannis after he dies at the battle. If the book does that, and the show doesn't, I'll be irritated because it makes so much more sense for the plot and characterization. I'm not going to bitch and moan endlessly on the internet, though, but I'll be like "the book was more logical in this regard". End result is the same. Stannis, Shireen, dead. Jon, alive.

[Sun]

Stannis lives. Same rules apply to show main characters as book main characters; if we don't see them die, they're not dead.

[Stannistician]

Sorry guys, he's dead.

What is the point of keeping him alive anymore? What could he possibly do? D+D never liked him, and ever since he burned Shireen, his (TV) fanbase collapsed. This is the perfect opportunity to get rid of him, and he ended it on a respectable note.

No way Brienne would let him live. She swore a solemn oath, and she takes her oaths seriously. She loved Renly and also really, really hated Stannis, never mind she supported a traitor and usurper (unlike Robb and Joffrey's supporters, Renly's knew he didn't have a legit claim, but did not care.)

HIs purpose could be to kill Mel. And Brienne didn't take her oath to look after Sansa very seriously. She left as soon as she heard about Stannis.

[Fury Burns]

Sorry guys, he's dead.

What is the point of keeping him alive anymore? What could he possibly do? D+D never liked him, and ever since he burned Shireen, his (TV) fanbase collapsed. This is the perfect opportunity to get rid of him, and he ended it on a respectable note.

No way Brienne would let him live. She swore a solemn oath, and she takes her oaths seriously. She loved Renly and also really, really hated Stannis, never mind she supported a traitor and usurper (unlike Robb and Joffrey's supporters, Renly's knew he didn't have a legit claim, but did not care.)

It's the perfect time to kill him because they made it so. If Stannis does lose the battle of ice or siege of winterfell then how is he supposed to go north to the wall and burn his daughter? They had him kill her just to make him evil and then kill him off. It's downright disgusting what they did to him.

[lovelikeangels]

my reaction to that scene was "sooooo.....did she kill him or nah?"

i think you have a good theory going OP.

IDK if she saw Sansa jump though.

but i did notice her facial expression change when he said "do your duty".

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

HIs purpose could be to kill Mel. And Brienne didn't take her oath to look after Sansa very seriously. She left as soon as she heard about Stannis.

Him alive is even more of a liability to Pod and Brienne than Sansa and Reek. He is mortally wounded, and likely lost the will to live. If the rules of reality exist, it would be a miracle before Breinne, Pod and the rest managed to escape Winterfell before the Boltons know and send the hounds after them.

On a different note, where could B,P,S,and R possibly find refuge from Ramsay? Perhaps go to Lord Umber's place with Rickon?

[gregorio]

I never believed Stannis would burn Shireen, and it upsets me that they made that change. Mel and/or Selyse will burn her without his consent, probably as a reaction to Stannis' defeat and death.

It's like they did it just so Brienne wouldn't look foolish for killing another character who was effectively aiding the Starks (the Hound last season). It was really contrived they had her up there to do the deed. She wouldn't have been able to get through all the Bolton and Baretheon men, and realistically Stannis would have died in that initial onslaught of cavalry with the rest of his force.

As far as the matter of whether or not Brienne really killed him, I believe she did. I wouldn't even call it an off-screen death. It echoed the way Maester Luwin was killed by Osha up against the hearttree is Season 2. That was also an "off-screen" death, and no one here is debating whether he is still alive.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

It's the perfect time to kill him because they made it so. If Stannis does lose the battle of ice or siege of winterfell then how is he supposed to go north to the wall and burn his daughter? They had him kill her just to make him evil and then kill him off. It's downright disgusting what they did to him.

It's a character on a show. Not a real person. Get over it.

[Lord Roivas]

I find it funny that everyone is forgetting that HE LOST THE BATTLE IN THE BOOK. He DIED in the book! This is exactly what the book led us to believe, and it happened, and you *still* are living in denial.

Do you hate GRRM for causing Stannis the Mancrush to lose the battle of Winterfell? Because it's canon. Fucking confirmed.

People are forgetting this? It simply wasn't confirmed in Book 5. And no definitely not confirmed by the mess of a show we have right now.

[Stannistician]

I never believed Stannis would burn Shireen, and it upsets me that they made that change. Mel and/or Selyse will burn her without his consent, probably as a reaction to Stannis' defeat and death.

It's like they did it just so Brienne wouldn't look foolish for killing another character who was effectively aiding the Starks (the Hound last season). It was really contrived they had her up there to do the deed. She wouldn't have been able to get through all the Bolton and Baretheon men, and realistically Stannis would have died in that initial onslaught of cavalry as would every else.

As far as the matter of whether or not Brienne really killed him, I believe she did. I wouldn't eve call it an off-screen death. It echoed the way Maester Luwin was killed by Osha up against the hearttree is Season 2. That was also an "off-screen" death, and no one here is debating whether he is still alive.

The timing of the burning could also be so that the viewers will not associate Shireen's burning with Jon's possible resurrection.

[Jasta11]

Irrelevant. Main point was that your "no body, no death" notion was nonsense.

Nuh-uh. So where's that show evidence that (for instance) Sandor is alive, that invalidates the ''rule'' then? Or anything that contradicts the basic fact that, so long as don't see a corpse, it's still possible that a character is alive (as, for example, Davos has demonstrated between seasons 2 and 3)?

I'm not betting that he is alive, But it's been a pretty consistent rule in both books and show that no body = no guaranteed deaths.

[Associate Maester]

There were so many changes to Stannis' storyline this season etc. I don't think we can predict book Stannis' fate based on what happened in the show. There are so many changes. Stannis was never going to be end-end game, but I think he's still got things to do in the book.

I'll miss Stephen Dillane's portrayal of him.