Heresy 170

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Regarding the Jon Snow and S6 of the show discussion... can you imagine the hype there is going to be for Season 6 when it starts leaking that Jon will be back...

[wolfmaid7]

<snip>

Bottom line: I like BR as Kurtz. But also like him as the isolated visionary, caught up in his own brilliance. Fits with the Quote Ravenstark brought up re: BR saying the darkness is power: he's misunderstood. Must work in darkness. Only he has figured out how to marry the power of the sun and the ice--etc.

Sum Up: As I said, Coleridge's poem is more symbol than argument. So might just be imagery Martin is playing with. But might point to other things, too.

Here's the text of the poem if you want to take a look, or refresh your memory from high school. And if you're thinking, "what the hell was this guy on?" the answer is opium. Lots and lots of opium.

Kubla Khan

Or, a vision in a dream. A Fragment.

By Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan

A stately pleasure-dome decree:

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran

Through caverns measureless to man

Down to a sunless sea.

So twice five miles of fertile ground

With walls and towers were girdled round;

And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,

Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;

And here were forests ancient as the hills,

Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted

Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!

A savage place! as holy and enchanted

As e’er beneath a waning moon was haunted

By woman wailing for her demon-lover!

And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,

As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,

A mighty fountain momently was forced:

Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst

Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,

Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:

And mid these dancing rocks at once and ever

It flung up momently the sacred river.

Five miles meandering with a mazy motion

Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,

Then reached the caverns measureless to man,

And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean;

And ’mid this tumult Kubla heard from far

Ancestral voices prophesying war!

The shadow of the dome of pleasure

Floated midway on the waves;

Where was heard the mingled measure

From the fountain and the caves.

It was a miracle of rare device,

A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer

In a vision once I saw:

It was an Abyssinian maid

And on her dulcimer she played,

Singing of Mount Abora.

Could I revive within me

Her symphony and song,

To such a deep delight ’twould win me,

That with music loud and long,

I would build that dome in air,

That sunny dome! those caves of ice!

And all who heard should see them there,

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

His flashing eyes, his floating hair!

Weave a circle round him thrice,

And close your eyes with holy dread

For he on honey-dew hath fed,

And drunk the milk of Paradise.

I not saying BR hasn't figured out how to weild both and in this case would represent the first version of the Oak/Holly King myth.One dude two roles.Its very possible.See no reason why it can't be this way,but i just wanted to say i love the bolded.

Something worth considering is that it isn't inconsistent with Lyanna dying in childbirth since that can itself be triggered by a trauma

True true. I disagree but it could totally happen i personally see evidence that Jon is older than he is advertised to be.Given Lya's on characteristics i wouldn't be surprised if she was in a physical altercation which resulted in her death.

[Sly Wren]

A Looong time lurker (since the Wall, Watch, Heresy days) but I think a first time post, maybe. Anyway, I have always found the "spattered with gore" reference an interesting take on the matter as well. It always seemed to me, and many others, that this referred to a violent act of some sort. The bleeding eyes post above led me to a simple google search that produced an interesting result, haemolacria. Bleeding from the tear ducts is an actual, rare, thing found in women with hormone problems, and can also be a product of traumatic injury (head trauma, poison?, etc, etc), and other unexplained cases involving young kids crying blood apparently.

Not real sure where any of this may lead, probably nowhere, but there does seem to be an endless array of pieces connecting Lyanna, Ashara, dead babies, blood and other tidbits. I fear, and always have, there is more to all this than R+L=J. But dead Jon on a dragon would still be epic.

Welcome! Though it sounds likes you've been reading a lot longer than I have. . . so jump on in.

The idea that the bleeding eyes could be tied to an actual image would be cool. Am thinking Ned's dreams of finding Lyanna might have mentioned that--but this is not really fair, since his dreams are very scant on detail on this point.

But the fact that the blood--symbolic or otherwise--opens up Jon's significance, Lyanna's role, what the hell Rhaegar was up to--yeah. Absolutely. And if the bleeding eyes were literal--would love to hear that backstory.

[Sly Wren]

From R+L=J version 140, page #11:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128029-rlj-v140/page-11

Can go with you as far as Jon warging Ghost (though I must admit my none-too-rational prejudice against it). Maybe even Ghost's eating Jojen--though that seems a bit much--getting everyone together like that. Not impossible, just a bit much.

Can't think what warging Hodor really gets him vs. going back into his own (probably altered) body. I am not happy about the idea that Mel raises Jon in some way. But there is set up for that in the books. Yes, Bran wargs Hodor, but he also knows Hodor hates it. Can't see why exactly Jon would do that . . .

[TheMiddleHero]

Any chance it's both? Lyanna was a sacrifice in some way--to Rhaegar's chasing a prophesy, to a higher cause, etc. So, then the cruenation is a reminder of his promise--for revenge. She was sacrificed. Not happy about that, etc.

Hmm, Rhaegar is such a mystery. Always go back and forth on my thoughts of his intentions with Lyanna. So many things not said about him. Most times he seems portrayed as one of the sensible Targaryan's, but maybe not so much so if we knew more.

Need someone to notice a similar story arc to Rhaegar in a book GRRM has a liking for.

Sly, looking at you right now, lol. I kid.... but seriously someone give me some clues.

[Black Crow]

A Looong time lurker (since the Wall, Watch, Heresy days) but I think a first time post, maybe. Anyway, I have always found the "spattered with gore" reference an interesting take on the matter as well. It always seemed to me, and many others, that this referred to a violent act of some sort. The bleeding eyes post above led me to a simple google search that produced an interesting result, haemolacria. Bleeding from the tear ducts is an actual, rare, thing found in women with hormone problems, and can also be a product of traumatic injury (head trauma, poison?, etc, etc), and other unexplained cases involving young kids crying blood apparently.

Not real sure where any of this may lead, probably nowhere, but there does seem to be an endless array of pieces connecting Lyanna, Ashara, dead babies, blood and other tidbits. I fear, and always have, there is more to all this than R+L=J. But dead Jon on a dragon would still be epic.

Welcome to Heresy, if you've been lurking that long its time you contributed something to the discussion. :cheers:

I think that there may well turn out to be a significant connection between the bleeding eyes and the gore spattered gown, but while that haemolacria business is fascination in itself I don't think that it should be taken literally. Both the bleeding eyes and the gore are introduced via dreams and the eyes moreover on a statue rather than in a living memory of Lyanna. They are symbolic and certainly in the context of the statue are symbolic of murder and above all reproach, whether for carrying out the murder or reproach for failing to avenge it.

I can't quite recall the wording of the passage but doesn't Lord Eddard at one point reflect on promises made but not kept?

[Black Crow]

Bottom line: I like BR as Kurtz. But also like him as the isolated visionary, caught up in his own brilliance.

True, but then again that also sums up Kurtz, and perhaps ultimately the Horror is the realisation of that and what he has become as a result.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Actually only tangentially tied to either of these--Coleridge did read plenty of Greek myth. And the poem is based on a historical description of an garden built by Kublai Khan. So, I won't be remotely offended if you find the following to be drivel.

Am thinking two things re: Coleridge:

Thing One. Leaf clearly references Coleridge's poem when she talks about the caverns that even the Children haven't fully explored and that lead down to a sunless sea. Coleridge's language: "Where Alph, the sacred river, ran / Through caverns measureless to man / Down to a sunless sea."

Based in part on Lord Ravenstark's point on previous thread re: Bloodraven seeing darkness as power, am wondering if Martin is portraying the "caverns measureless to man" as the source of BR's power. Maybe even the "cauldron" (to really mix the metaphors) which is potentially producing wights. In the poem, the sacred river flows through a walled garden (full of holy trees) through a chasm in the earth: "A savage place! as holy and enchanted / as e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted/ by woman wailing for her demon lover."

19th century poetry language aside, the chasm forces up a fountain--imagery ties it to "seed" but it's also stone. Screws up the "sacred river" in some way. So when the sacred river finally reaches the "caverns measureless to man" to sink into the sunless sea: "And mid this tumult Kubla heard from far / ancestral voices prophesying war."

All of this is built by Kubla Kahn: "a miracle of rare device. A sunny pleasure dome with caves of ice."

Coleridge's poem is more symbol than argument. And he was on a LOT of opium. Plus, as I said on the previous thread, am not sure if Leaf is just warning Bran and the Scoobies to stay out of the scary caverns. But the theory that the cave might be tied to the production of all the Winter--Maritn's clear use of Coleridge's imagery from a highly anthologized poem seems to support the theory.

Thing Two: Back to the psyche of Bloodraven. Were debating just how Kurtz-y he actually is. Would argue that with the Coleridge reference, Martin may also be saying that BR is the brilliant, misunderstood visionary--which is how Coleridge's speaker portrays himself. Coleridge says that if he as poet was inspired by song and actually built the sunny dome with caves of ice, he would be both revered and dreaded, isolated and protected: "weave a circle round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread, for he on honeydew hath fed, and drunk the milk of paradise."

Fits with Coldhands' calling BR a dreamer, with BR's insistence on the rarity of greenseers, and with Leaf's language. Plus all the fear of the poet-prophet in Coleridge's poem could tie in with the question of whether or not all the Children agree with BR's ideas or if this clan is different, following the "true" idea.

Bottom line: I like BR as Kurtz. But also like him as the isolated visionary, caught up in his own brilliance. Fits with the quote Ravenstark brought up re: BR saying the darkness is power: he's misunderstood. Must work in darkness. Only he has figured out how to marry the power of the sun and the ice--etc.

Sum Up: As I said, Coleridge's poem is more symbol than argument. So might just be imagery Martin is playing with. But might point to other things, too.

Here's the text of the poem if you want to take a look, or refresh your memory from high school. And if you're thinking, "what the hell was this guy on?" the answer is opium. Lots and lots of opium.

Kubla Khan

Or, a vision in a dream. A Fragment.

By Samuel Taylor Coleridge

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan

A stately pleasure-dome decree:

Where Alph, the sacred river, ran

Through caverns measureless to man

Down to a sunless sea.

So twice five miles of fertile ground

With walls and towers were girdled round;

And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,

Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;

And here were forests ancient as the hills,

Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted

Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!

A savage place! as holy and enchanted

As e’er beneath a waning moon was haunted

By woman wailing for her demon-lover!

And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,

As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,

A mighty fountain momently was forced:

Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst

Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,

Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:

And mid these dancing rocks at once and ever

It flung up momently the sacred river.

Five miles meandering with a mazy motion

Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,

Then reached the caverns measureless to man,

And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean;

And ’mid this tumult Kubla heard from far

Ancestral voices prophesying war!

The shadow of the dome of pleasure

Floated midway on the waves;

Where was heard the mingled measure

From the fountain and the caves.

It was a miracle of rare device,

A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer

In a vision once I saw:

It was an Abyssinian maid

And on her dulcimer she played,

Singing of Mount Abora.

Could I revive within me

Her symphony and song,

To such a deep delight ’twould win me,

That with music loud and long,

I would build that dome in air,

That sunny dome! those caves of ice!

And all who heard should see them there,

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

His flashing eyes, his floating hair!

Weave a circle round him thrice,

And close your eyes with holy dread

For he on honey-dew hath fed,

And drunk the milk of Paradise.

Kubla's garden sounds like a godswood, and a place savage and holy reminds me of the COTF cave for sure or the godswood its self with the blood sacrifices at the tree

[TheSmallOther]

In the Christian religion, weeping statues are often connected to the Virgin Mary (which reminded me now of The Maid and The Mother figures in the religion of the seven in SoIF). These phenomenon is frequently accompanied by the scent of roses or flowers too, and this again has to do with Lyanna. I'm not sure what this means, since the Starks follow the Old Gods, not the new, but to me the connection is there.

Good note about roses. I was thinking about Virgin Mary, since there are quite few examples of her statues weeping blood. Starks may follow the Old Gods, but it may not be a problem. Lyanna, for example, could have been turned to some other religion.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the version mentioned by several others, saying that this symbolises some violent event. Gore and sky with blood would fit into it, too.

Any chance it's both? Lyanna was a sacrifice in some way--to Rhaegar's chasing a prophesy, to a higher cause, etc. So, then the cruenation is a reminder of his promise--for revenge. She was sacrificed. Not happy about that, etc.

Sacrifice would be an interesting turn of events. Wouldn't be surprising too much. It all began with ritual in Harrenhall (at least quite a number of heretics think it was some sort of ritual). Why should ritual stop at the tournament? On the other hand, it was mentioned Rheagar was a bard, Rheagar was a warrior, but we haven't heard of Rheagar being priest. And if we claim all this ritual represents Beltane, I'd like to know if queen should be sacrificed in any way during Beltane's rituals. At least I haven't found any references to such sacrifices.

[Lady Dyanna]

So twice five miles of fertile ground

With walls and towers were girdled round;

And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,

Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;

And here were forests ancient as the hills,

Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

Upon my first read of this part, not only did it call to mind a godswood, but Winterfell's godswood in particular. Just how large of a network could these underground tunnels/caves encompass?

[Sly Wren]

True, but then again that also sums up Kurtz, and perhaps ultimately the Horror is the realisation of that and what he has become as a result.

Completely fair. But--WARNING: I am about to get pretentious and nit-picky:

Kurtz is a disillusioned Victorian (or the Belgian version of that)--believed in Empire, the great white cause, etc. And then it all failed ("kill all the brutes"). He looked into the heart of darkness--at least part of that was realizing that the "civilized" world and ideals he championed in his treatise are as barbaric as the "primitive" world--that clash is a big part of the horror.

Whereas Coleridge and the Romantics--they are more about being tied to the Sublime--chasing the supernatural for inspiration and insight beyond mere mortals. Not falling from an ideal but connecting with the supernatural--often from birth (Wordsworth's "trailing clouds of glory"). The poet-prophet who learns too much to be fully understood by mortals--seems very Bloodraven-y. With his pursuit of magics, ties to Shiera--he's got a lot in common with the Romantic poet-prophet mindset.

End of pretentious nit-picking: either way, Conrad could easily have read Coleridge. His prose is very symbolic and intensely descriptive--as is Coleridge's poetry. And Martin loves symbolic prose--may be six of one and half a dozen of the other re: Coleridge vs. Conrad.

What that means? If BR is Kurtz-y and disillusioned (which I buy a lot of)--may give hints as to his plan--wants a way out, etc. If he's the true-believer poet-prophet--may be looking to complete the ideal . . .

[Sly Wren]

Upon my first read of this part, not only did it call to mind a godswood, but Winterfell's godswood in particular. Just how large of a network could these underground tunnels/caves encompass?

Yeah--the walled garden, holy trees which probably connect down into caverns/crypts no one knows the depths of--I've thought the poem might be part of the inspiration for Winterfell, too.

Winterfell is "a miracle of rare device" with its hot springs in Winter and glass gardens: "a sunny pleasure dome with caves of ice"--not exact. But a tie in. And Leaf's statements on the caverns and sunless sea--the tie to Coleridge is unmistakeable.

@SerWalterPuffsAlot: Quote: "Kubla's garden sounds like a godswood, and a place savage and holy reminds me of the COTF cave for sure or the godswood its self with the blood sacrifices at the tree"

Agreed: the hard part for me is figuring out exactly what Martin is doing or going to do with the images.

[Sly Wren]

I not saying BR hasn't figured out how to weild both and in this case would represent the first version of the Oak/Holly King myth.One dude two roles.Its very possible.See no reason why it can't be this way,but i just wanted to say i love the bolded.

Wasn't thinking of Oak and Holly with all this--but it could work. And whether BR has actually tied them together or is tying to--might not make a difference. The attempt could be as disruptive to nature as potential success.

Assuming I knew what on earth he'd use to do this. Which of course I don't. But agreed: lots of ways to read Bloodraven. But the poet-prophet-misunderstood-genius definitely fits, too.

[Black Crow]

At the moment I'm leaning towards the version mentioned by several others, saying that this symbolises some violent event. Gore and sky with blood would fit into it, too.

:agree:

Yes, its interesting that the version of events promoted by the R+L=Jon Targaryen school centres around a romantic elopement and tale of doomed love; not to mention all the fan-fiction of secret weddings and such.

Yet all the imagery which we see through Lord Eddard and to a lesser extent of course Theon is of bloody violence; the blood streaked sky, the fight outside the tower, Lyanna's ghost in the gown spattered with gore, and above all perhaps the statue weeping blood. None of that speaks of star-crossed lovers but of something much darker.

[Black Crow]

Wasn't thinking of Oak and Holly with all this--but it could work. And whether BR has actually tied them together or is tying to--might not make a difference. The attempt could be as disruptive to nature as potential success.

Assuming I knew what on earth he'd use to do this. Which of course I don't. But agreed: lots of ways to read Bloodraven. But the poet-prophet-misunderstood-genius definitely fits, too.

Its interesting that another argument wrapped up in the R+L=Jon Targaryen theory holds that as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Jon embodies both Ice and Fire and is therefore the key to the resolution of the business. Yet if we treat Ice and Fire metaphorically rather than literally and interpret them as opposed extremes then we find Bloodraven as the son of a Targaryen and a Blackwood also embodying the two - the old gods and the new perhaps - and its not a pretty sight.

[Lady Dyanna]

Yeah--the walled garden, holy trees which probably connect down into caverns/crypts no one knows the depths of--I've thought the poem might be part of the inspiration for Winterfell, too.

Winterfell is "a miracle of rare device" with its hot springs in Winter and glass gardens: "a sunny pleasure dome with caves of ice"--not exact. But a tie in. And Leaf's statements on the caverns and sunless sea--the tie to Coleridge is unmistakeable.

@SerWalterPuffsAlot: Quote: "Kubla's garden sounds like a godswood, and a place savage and holy reminds me of the COTF cave for sure or the godswood its self with the blood sacrifices at the tree"

Agreed: the hard part for me is figuring out exactly what Martin is doing or going to do with the images.

Also stuck on the "cold" pond in front of the heart tree. While not a "fountain" it certainly sticks out from the rest of the "warm" imagery surrounding Winterfell.

[addicted to snow]

True true. I disagree but it could totally happen i personally see evidence that Jon is older than he is advertised to be.Given Lya's on characteristics i wouldn't be surprised if she was in a physical altercation which resulted in her death.

I agree... & I understand that childbirth can be bloody, but I sorta doubt that it is ever described as "spattered gore"...

I mean, what part of childbirth results in blood-spatter?

[wolfmaid7]

Wasn't thinking of Oak and Holly with all this--but it could work. And whether BR has actually tied them together or is tying to--might not make a difference. The attempt could be as disruptive to nature as potential success.

Assuming I knew what on earth he'd use to do this. Which of course I don't. But agreed: lots of ways to read Bloodraven. But the poet-prophet-misunderstood-genius definitely fits, too.

Agreed,i'm doing a little side project showing how BR and his like are bending the elements of the natural world.But i'm not done yet.But we se hints of it.Storm that came out of nowhere,heat/cold wave etc.

Its interesting that another argument wrapped up in the R+L=Jon Targaryen theory holds that as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Jon embodies both Ice and Fire and is therefore the key to the resolution of the business. Yet if we treat Ice and Fire metaphorically rather than literally and interpret them as opposed extremes then we find Bloodraven as the son of a Targaryen and a Blackwood also embodying the two - the old gods and the new perhaps - and its not a pretty sight.

Also it drives home the point if Jon is part Valyrian and First man in its most basic terms or

Fire and ice.He's not special or unique at all.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree... & I understand that childbirth can be bloody, but I sorta doubt that it is ever described as "spattered gore"...

I mean, what part of childbirth results in blood-spatter?

Not unless one's vagina is unbelievebly tight during, with blood and baby moving at great speed forced by a piston toward the opening which refuses to dilate and the baby is canon balled from the vagina across the room depositing blood in its wake.

I have seen babies born in the Congo,Ethiopia and Kenya in conditions that aren't mordern just village midwives being observed and aided to ensure maternal and child mortality decreases per Millenium Development Goal # 5 from WHO.

I've yet to see any mother "Spattered with gore" even the most basic of nursing skills performed by a midwife in less that modern surroundings didn't result in that.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I agree... & I understand that childbirth can be bloody, but I sorta doubt that it is ever described as "spattered gore"...

I mean, what part of childbirth results in blood-spatter?

IF Lyanna did die in child birth i would imagine some type of bleeding involved and if your lying down the blood could easily go all over you especially if you just held your new born son