So what is HBO's strategy on the Jon Snow question?

[TheRevanchist]

I guess he'll 'live' in Ghost for some time, and the get resurrected (probably for the finale).

Kit Harington being in Iceland will be leaked, but they will say that it is for the scene when the Watch will bury/burn him (similar to how Dance was for the first episode of last season).

[bravosi42]

I guess he'll 'live' in Ghost for some time, and the get resurrected (probably for the finale).

Kit Harington being in Iceland will be leaked, but they will say that it is for the scene when the Watch will bury/burn him (similar to how Dance was for the first episode of last season).

kit harington watch is gonna be fun

[Wouter]

The cast and crew are lying. They have motive to do so (making the show even more infamous, promoting it that way, plus they can get the shock resurrection next season) and it really isn't hard for D&D to discuss this in advance with the people involved and give instructions on what to say and what not to say.

It is analogous with the ST into Darkness situation, where everybody knew it was Khan but they kept denying it because they wanted the "dramatic reveal" (tip: a nice spoof of that in this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8).

And it does give GRRM until april 2016 to get TWOW out, but even so he needs to finish before the end of this year to just barely have the book on shelves by then. Which doesn't look likely considering there is no report of major progress.

If Kit is seen during filming, that will be months from now and only some people will be aware of it.

[shaggy_rick]

Jon might stay dead: show-Jon's character is unfit to lead the fight for the Dawn!

Jon has already given up the fight before the stabbing.

Just look at his last dialog with Sam:

Sam: "What you're gona do?" Jon: "I wont to hope the don't know how to climb the wall"
Sam: "But - the dragon glass?" Jon: "No one is ever getting that back now. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, unless we had a mountain of it." (he already forgot about Dragonstone, which Stannis had told him in the show)
Sam: "But - you killed a White Walker" Jon: "With Lon Claw" ...
Sam: "How many valyrian steel swords are left in the seven kingdoms?" Jon: "Not enough."

Are these the words of an heroic leader who is determined to save humanity? No! He is depressed, not intelligent or proactive about the situation, and has already given up. Why should he be brought back?

The show shows him doing NOTHING to inform his brothers (except Sam) about the Hardhome situation and NOTHING to prepare the Nights Watch for the fight against the White Walkers. Such a "leader" is useless!

And why should anyone follow a depressed whiney guy after he came back from the dead to fight against - people who came back from the dead?

:bang:

So if the show would maintain any character consistency they shouldn't bring him back. But of course they will get him resurected and make him a hero again next season. I think I'm not going to watch it.

[Wouter]

I'm sure Jon told the others what happened, off-screen. As did the other surviving member from the NW expedition to Hardhome.

Just like in the books, not everything is shown "on-screen".

[FantasyFan73]

I re-read the passage last night, and re watched the episode.

I am 99% sure that martin intends to bring Jon back, however i am less certain about the show.

I know CGI budgets can be tight, and we have seen barristan (amongst others) killed off on the show.

Is it not possible that Jon Snow was killed off on the show because of the budget, but will live in the books?

[Wouter]

I re-read the passage last night, and re watched the episode.

I am 99% sure that martin intends to bring Jon back, however i am less certain about the show.

I know CGI budgets can be tight, and we have seen barristan (amongst others) killed off on the show.

Is it not possible that Jon Snow was killed off on the show because of the budget, but will live in the books?

No, that's not possible. D&D have always maintained they want to reach Martin's ending of the books and they have had long meetings with him about that. They have also been playing up the "Jon is a son of Rhaegar" angle this season. And Melisandre returned to the Wall, just in time.

He is going to be resurrected. Right now, the showrunners, cast and crew are trying to hide this so it becomes more shocking when it happens.

[Benoitthegr8]

I'm not too sure about Kit Harrington, as it's plausible that if he is reborn of fire he somehow changes form or appearance... or Jon Snow isn't really Jon Snow anymore, remember the unopened scroll, in theory this could be the royal decree legitimizing him as a Stark. IMO, we won't find out these answers until a few episodes into S6, and on that note I'm expecting a delayed release of the show next year... Maybe Fall 2016. But, you can call he hopelessly emotionally invested into my favorite POV characters, for clarification I'm still holding out hope that we will again see Sandor Clegane in season 6.... I miss the Hound :(

[FantasyFan73]

I'm not too sure about Kit Harrington, as it's plausible that if he is reborn of fire he somehow changes form or appearance... or Jon Snow isn't really Jon Snow anymore, remember the unopened scroll, in theory this could be the royal decree legitimizing him as a Stark. IMO, we won't find out these answers until a few episodes into S6, and on that note I'm expecting a delayed release of the show next year... Maybe Fall 2016. But, you can call he hopelessly emotionally invested into my favorite POV characters, for clarification I'm still holding out hope that we will again see Sandor Clegane in season 6.... I miss the Hound :(

I honestly believe that while reincarnating someone in another body would work in books it would not translate well on film.

All of the 'investment' people have in the character would disappear in my opinion

And yes i loved the hound - the scenes with arya were some of my show favourites.

[FantasyFan73]

No, that's not possible. D&D have always maintained they want to reach Martin's ending of the books and they have had long meetings with him about that. They have also been playing up the "Jon is a son of Rhaegar" angle this season. And Melisandre returned to the Wall, just in time.

He is going to be resurrected. Right now, the showrunners, cast and crew are trying to hide this so it becomes more shocking when it happens.

How on earth did she reach castle black so quickly by the way?

That seemed odd to me.

[Wouter]

How on earth did she reach castle black so quickly by the way?

That seemed odd to me.

In the show (not wholly unlike the books), people reach their destination when their plot calls for it.

Also, there may have been a small jump in time between what happened at Winterfell and the ending.

[shaggy_rick]

I'm sure Jon told the others what happened, off-screen. As did the other surviving member from the NW expedition to Hardhome.

Just like in the books, not everything is shown "on-screen".

Of course they can let boring and unimportant stuff happen off-screen. But why should they let stuff that is important to describe the character let happen off-screen. What they have shown is only his chat with Sam, and the take-away is that Jon is depressed and not determined to do all he can organize the defense of humanity. He brushes off everything Sam brings up (dragon glass, valyrian steel) and his only "strategy" is: "I wanna hope they don't know how to climb the wall". To Sam he denies that there is anything they can do about the upcomming White Walker attack, and he doesn't show any sign that he is motivated to try.

• on-screen: he is whiny and depressed, not proactive, doesn't organize and communicate with his brothers, and has given up the fight

off-screen: he is a leader, he organizes the wall's defense, he is educating trys to inspire his brothers for the upcomming threat

Might be that is the way D&D will go about it. But then I am not interested anymore.

[Sword Swallower]

Even if he is dead "for good," I can't imagine Jon not being in season 6 at all as Kit had mentioned. Surely we'd get to see a funeral or body dumping or Ghost mourning him. That would be a terrible way for a favorite character to just end.

[kacunnin]

If Jon does warg into Ghost for awhile in the books, it would be impossible to translate to the screen, so they could be removing him from the show entirely for that time instead.

Buy why would it be impossible to show him warging into Ghost? We've seen Bran warging into Summer (and into Hodor), and it wasn't difficult to portray. Yes, there would have to be some sort of scene at the start of Season 6 to show Jon's face and then Ghost's eyes. But I don't think that would be hard to pull off.

And we could see Ghost now and then, knowing that he carried Jon's spirit inside him. Whatever resurrection Martin has planned for Jon (and I believe he will be resurrected), it may not happen until late in the story. And he may not look at all the same (meaning a different actor may be involved). But I believe the show will use Kit, even if we won't see him again until the final season.

[Grimbold]

Setting aside for now that the story is quite different in the show and we don't know how this pans out in season 6, the biggest argument for Jon coming back is, in my opinion, Melisandre's return to Castle Black.

The show finished with completly wiping out what's left of Stannis' story arc. There is nothing left except Mel and Davos. Why keep those 2 alive when you just killed the central figure to which they were associated?

You'd have to get into some deep speculation to justify their presence at CB, but the most obvious motive is Jon's ressurection.

[shaggy_rick]

Setting aside for now that the story is quite different in the show and we don't know how this pans out in season 6, the biggest argument for Jon coming back is, in my opinion, Melisandre's return to Castle Black.

The show finished with completly wiping out what's left of Stannis' story arc. There is nothing left except Mel and Davos. Why keep those 2 alive when you just killed the central figure to which they were associated?

You'd have to get into some deep speculation to justify their presence at CB, but the most obvious motive is Jon's ressurection.

But if you watch the scene with Jon and Sam again, you will see that Show-Jon is absolutely useless as a leader.

SAM: So what are you gonna do?

JON: I’m gonna hope they don’t learn how to climb the wall.

SAM: But… the Dragonglass?

JON (shakes his head): No one’s ever getting that back, now. It wouldn’t have mattered anyway, unless we had a mountain of it.

SAM (confused): But… you killed a White Walker.

JON: With Longclaw. I saw them shatter steel axes like they were glass. But Longclaw…

SAM: He’s made of Valyrian steel. How many Valyrian steel swords are left in the Seven Kingdoms?

JON: Not enough.

So this whiny creature should be brought back to lead the fight? At this point Show-Sam would be a way better Lord Commander than Show-Jon.

This dialog alone would be reason enough for "For-the-Watch".

[lakin1013]

I was reading a Yahoo story this morning about the GoT finale, and when I read the story, there were about 245 comments. I started reading the comments and it seemed to me the majority absolutely do NOT believe Jon Snow is dead. Then I went to the Vanity Fair article, which seems to NOT believe Jon Snow is dead. Then I went to Grantland, read Ask the Maester and he does NOT believe Jon Snow is dead, really deader than dead. Quoting Ask The Maester:

I choose to die on the hill with all the other “Jon Snow doesn’t stay dead” true believers.

Grantland piece: http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-jon-snow-season-finale/

Vanity Fair piece: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/jon-snow-dead-game-of-thrones-azor-ahai-melisandre-warg

[kacunnin]

If LOTR ended with saving the world, this narrative ends with the end of the world, an appropriately postmodern ending for 21st century story.

I agree with this, in a way. I've thought from the beginning (after I finished the fifth book, anyway) that the White Walkers (or "Others," as Martin calls them) are not evil. Instead, they are bringing vengeance down upon the human race for their poisonous and destructive nature. They represent an ancient way of living, a way of living reflected by the "Children of the Forest," or Bran's tree, or the Old Gods. Both the books and the show have made it abundantly clear that human beings are toxic creatures, a race of beings steeped in violence, greed, and a selfish need for power. The irony of this war with the Others is that the Others will use the human dead against humanity (through the "zombie" army they will raise).

As for Jon, I think there is a connection between him and the Others, a link between the human race and this older race of beings. Since there is also a connection between Jon and the Targaryans, Jon becomes a bridge between Dany's claim for the Iron Throne and the Others' vendetta against the human race. If Jon is resurrected (and I believe he will be, although we've yet to see how and in what form), he may rise again among the Others. If that happens, the challenge will be to save humanity while also satisfying the Others (and the Old Gods) that humanity is worth saving. So the world we see at the conclusion of the story may have little resemblance to the one we see now. The Iron Throne will be meaningless.

So it is possible that Kit will not be back, but Jon will -- but not quite as Jon. There is no way Jon Snow (in some form, at least) will not be part of whatever end game Martin has in mind.

[The hairy bear]

I'm convinced Jon will return in the show. D&D don't seem capable of such a big change, and they've been refreshing Rhaegar's memory hrough season 5.

I'm inclined to agree with those suggesting that he'll be back towards the end of Season 6, and they'll do their best to keep his return a secret. They'll fail, of course.

So this whiny creature should be brought back to lead the fight? At this point Show-Sam would be a way better Lord Commander than Show-Jon.

This dialog alone would be reason enough for "For-the-Watch".

Spot on.

[FantasyFan73]

Gosh - Jon had a moment of despair, his situation is pretty grim, a watch that hates him, the southerners determined to kill each other and seemingly noone able to see the bigger picture. I couldnt blame him for that moment, it did not make him seem whiny to me.