R+L=J v.145

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:

A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?

Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.

Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?

Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?

He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.

There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?

We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?

In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.

George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.

On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.

Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?

The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.

"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?

The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.

In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?

There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

A thread for discussing strengths and weaknesses of the theory that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)

"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)

"R+L=J v.136" (thread one hundred thirty six)

"R+L=J v.137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)

"R+L=J v.138"(thread one hundred thirty eight)

"R+L=J v.139" (thread one hundred thirty nine)

"R+L=J v.140" (thread one hundred forty)

"R+L=J v.141" (thread one hundred forty one)

R+L=J v.142 (thread one hundred forty two)

R+L=J v.143 (thread one hundred forty three)

R+L=J v. 144

[Kat]

Mod Stubby in the last thread:

[MOD]

I respectfully remind all users of this rule, found in the FAQ section here:

The reference to MySpace should give you all an idea about how long this rule has been in place. ;)

For the next iteration of this thread or any other thread for that matter, anyone - no matter which side of the R+L=J debate you sit - will face a long suspension if in breach of this rule.

Thanks to everyone in advance for compliance.

[/MOD]

I will also note that this is also in the FAQ:

Q. What about if I do a lot of short posts? Do those count?

A. Yes and no. The board is dumb and it'll tally them. But Ran or the moderators will delete them, and maybe you'll be titled something humiliating if you do this chronically. They don't like a lot of short one-liners. If you feel a need to make a quip in a thread (especially in forums dedicated to series discussion), try to give the post some substance.

This is especially important right now because the servers are overloaded due to the show, hence it being in "performance mode". Y'all know this already, and I just deleted several posts that violated this rule and suspended the people who did it for spamming.

Go read the FAQ and stop taking things so seriously. You are having an argument on the internet about the parentage of fictional characters. The mods are sick of dealing with you guys making it personal. Cut it out or we'll cut you loose.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Shiny!

Seconding @Kat from a user's perspective: please be civil, do not answer any trolls unless you want to encourage 'em. Saves us a lot of nastiness, I believe.

[Kingmonkey]

Go read the FAQ and stop taking things so seriously. You are having an argument on the internet about the parentage of fictional characters. The mods are sick of dealing with you guys making it personal. Cut it out or we'll cut you loose.

Thank you! :cheers:

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Maybe it'll never be revealed on the show, and he might stay truly dead (nah). There really isn't that much exposition for it imo. Save it for the books. Not that it makes much difference heh heh. Just one last saving grace for GRRM.

I mean, if he doesn't get a dragon, then what is the point? He has Ghost and a Valyrian steel sword already. And we don't know how important dragons are to the end game.

[BearQueen87]

Maybe it'll never be revealed on the show, and he might stay truly dead (nah). There really isn't that much exposition for it imo. Save it for the books. Not that it makes much difference heh heh. Just one last saving grace for GRRM.

I mean, if he doesn't get a dragon, then what is the point? He has Ghost and a Valyrian steel sword already. And we don't know how important dragons are to the end game.

Naaaaah. The show actually brought up R and L and went into their history. The reveal is coming, but perhaps not until S7.

[TheSmallOther]

Maybe it'll never be revealed on the show, and he might stay truly dead (nah). There really isn't that much exposition for it imo. Save it for the books. Not that it makes much difference heh heh. Just one last saving grace for GRRM.

I mean, if he doesn't get a dragon, then what is the point? He has Ghost and a Valyrian steel sword already. And we don't know how important dragons are to the end game.

I'm pretty sure dragons are important for the end game. Will Jon Snow ride a dragon? I very much doubt it. Frankly speaking, I'd be disappointed to have such outcome of Jon's arc.

[UnmaskedLurker]

From BQ87 to me in last thread:

ETA: I don't like when we disagree. :( #TeamRhaegarChangedHisMind

Hey, I still love you just as much even when we disagree. :wub:

And there is no reason to assume that Jon stays in Ghost any longer on the show than in the books. If Jon's time in Ghost is short on the show (even if he is "resurrected" in the second or third episode), Kit would still have to say what he said. Jon coming back is a pretty big spoiler -- and actors lie (or dissemble) all the time to try to keep from telling spoilers.

I really don't have that strong a view on how long Jon stays in Ghost -- the foreshadowing is not detailed enough to give much information on how long he stays in Ghost -- just that he is man-wolf-man and thus at some point will be returned to his body. It just makes sense to me that he will be stuck for a while for a couple of reasons -- partly because GRRM said the story would spend time further North than the readers have seen before -- but not only that reason. As I think about it more, I think there also is a story-arc reason to keep Jon in Ghost for a while. The action at the Wall really needs to stall for quite some time. There is not that much more that can take place at the Wall that matters until the Others come through -- and the Others cannot come through any time soon because too much has to take place in the South first. We need to have Cersei's struggle/war with the Faith resolved -- we need to have Aegon's invasion of Westeros be resolved -- and we need the have Dany's invasion / DoD 2.0 be resolved. All of that action needs to be over and I think Dany needs to be in place as having defeated the other players before the Others can breach the Wall. Yes, some action can take place in the North while all of that action is taking place in the South -- mainly the battle for Winterfell and the ultimate fate of the Boltons and Stannis -- both groups of which I suspect do not survive long enough to see the invasion by the Others. But given that Stannis might even be dead already if the Pink Letter is true (

And if his apparent death on the show is any indication -- although maybe Brienne spared his life

), and even if Stannis isn't dead already that is a lot less action to get through than what must take place in the South.

So if Jon is going to be somewhat central to the action in the North, it seems that he needs to spend quite a bit of time north of the Wall in Ghost to bide time while pieces fall into place in the South. Then, Jon can be resurrected in time to try to regroup with whoever is left of the Wildings and other supporters. I suspect Jon is also going to be involved ultimately in taking out the Boltons, but that confrontation simply cannot be dragged out as long as it would need to in order to end around the time things are falling into place in the South if Jon is in Ghost only a short time. So an extended stay in Ghost, learning about the Others, while the other action in the North largely stalls (and is not a major focus in the books for a while) makes sense to me, and during that time period, there is enough extended time for the action in the South to unravel.

On the other hand, if Jon is resurrected too quickly, how is the time filled in the North while all the events in the South that need to fall into place unravel?

[Jô Maltese]

Many of us agree here that Jon is a dragon, and moreover that he is the legitimate Head of their House (R+L married = J). But as I said it elsewhere (in the A+J=T threads), Jon becoming a dragon rider is not a given.

Somehow I do not think Rhaegal will get to John, the textual hints are missing IMHO (apart from the straightforward naming after Rhaegar, of course) as opposed to Drogon/Dany or Viserion/Tyrion. Basically, I initially thought that the dragons / riders clues were their naming but the more I read Rhaegal related text, the less John I can find in it : Bronze for the first men? Anger for John's beserking? Maybe.

I believe John is the song of Ice and Fire alone, not John + Dany = the song. John is now Ice /Wolf with Ghost and one path I can see happening is Jon resuscitating as Fire / Dragon with Drogon (the negative photo of Ghost and textual descriptions of both seem to match at times). But Dany needs to die first... And I do tend to think Dany will die before the end game, as a Nissa Nissa maybe ? I can actually see Dany's death being the last (bouquet final) big shock à la GRRM for the readers... So Drogon for Jon is more likely than Rhaegal IMHO.

But there is a relative absence of dragon riding foreshadowing in Jon's arc (as opposed to his Dragon ID, see previous threads!) and I have to say it has always made me wonder. And Drogon, as some other members have pointed it out here and there, is too much Dany's (Fire and Blood) to become Jon's. Therefore I am not sure he is ever going to be a rider. He is The Dragon after all, the First Head, the PtwP and AA (my belief) so he does not need a dragon but he needs Lightbringer (Dawn? Longclaw? Dany?). And consider the following:

1. Say, Jon is the Dragon but will not become a dragon rider: how do we (the readers) know? The answer is R+L=J v145...

2. Say, Tyrion is a dragon(seed) and will become a dragon rider: We will know it when he rides Viserion, so we do not need as many hints at AJT, but we do need a few for Tyrion+Viserion.

[Ygrain]

I mean, if he doesn't get a dragon, then what is the point? He has Ghost and a Valyrian steel sword already. And we don't know how important dragons are to the end game.

I believe John is the song of Ice and Fire alone, not John + Dany = the song. John is now Ice /Wolf with Ghost and one path I can see happening is Jon resuscitating as Fire / Dragon with Drogon (the negative photo of Ghost and textual descriptions of both seem to match at times). But Dany needs to die first...

Perhaps he might wrench control over Drogon from Dany? Why else point out that he has the strongest warging potential ever? If his warging ability served only to his survival in Ghost, the superstrength would be excessive.

[BearQueen87]

From BQ87 to me in last thread:

Hey, I still love you just as much even when we disagree. :wub:

And there is no reason to assume that Jon stays in Ghost any longer on the show than in the books. If Jon's time in Ghost is short on the show (even if he is "resurrected" in the second or third episode), Kit would still have to say what he said. Jon coming back is a pretty big spoiler -- and actors lie (or dissemble) all the time to try to keep from telling spoilers.

[snip]

The argument around "wrapping up the Southron" storyline makes more sense than any of the foreshadowing I've seen WRT how long Jon stays inside Ghost. And it could be that Jon isn't in Ghost that long at all, but that the chapters are spaced out so that it covers a good portion of the book and allows GRRM to wrap up some fairly hefty plot lines before Jon is brought back. And in terms of the show, that could mean that S6 is indeed Jon and Kit-less, except for the final scene of S6 which will be Jon coming back...somehow.

no idea how since Jon didn't say "Ghost" and doesn't appear to have warged

Many of us agree here that Jon is a dragon, and moreover that he is the legitimate Head of their House (R+L married = J). But as I said it elsewhere (in the A+J=T threads), Jon becoming a dragon rider is not a given.

Somehow I do not think Rhaegal will get to John, the textual hints are missing IMHO (apart from the straightforward naming after Rhaegar, of course) as opposed to Drogon/Dany or Viserion/Tyrion. Basically, I initially thought that the dragons / riders clues were their naming but the more I read Rhaegal related text, the less John I can find in it : Bronze for the first men? Anger for John's beserking? Maybe.

I believe John is the song of Ice and Fire alone, not John + Dany = the song. John is now Ice /Wolf with Ghost and one path I can see happening is Jon resuscitating as Fire / Dragon with Drogon (the negative photo of Ghost and textual descriptions of both seem to match at times). But Dany needs to die first... And I do tend to think Dany will die before the end game, as a Nissa Nissa maybe ? I can actually see Dany's death being the last (bouquet final) big shock à la GRRM for the readers... So Drogon for Jon is more likely than Rhaegal IMHO.

But there is a relative absence of dragon riding foreshadowing in Jon's arc (as opposed to his Dragon ID, see previous threads!) and I have to say it has always made me wonder. And Drogon, as some other members have pointed it out here and there, is too much Dany's (Fire and Blood) to become Jon's. Therefore I am not sure he is ever going to be a rider. He is The Dragon after all, the First Head, the PtwP and AA (my belief) so he does not need a dragon but he needs Lightbringer (Dawn? Longclaw? Dany?). And consider the following:

1. Say, Jon is the Dragon but will not become a dragon rider: how do we (the readers) know? The answer is R+L=J v145...

2. Say, Tyrion is a dragon(seed) and will become a dragon rider: We will know it when he rides Viserion, so we do not need as many hints at AJT, but we do need a few for Tyrion+Viserion.

I'm very hard pressed to believe that Jon will take Drogon since the relationship between Dany and Drogon is deeper than just rider/mount. It could be that she dies and Drogon is then "free" for Jon but....I don't know. I rather like the idea of Jon riding (or warging) the dragon named for his father, wearing his black armor, with his white wolf by his side(if Ghost survives, which I doubt and if not, then with Longclaw with its white wolf handle) thus bringing all the color motifs together in one imagine which is ultimately what Jon is--the amalgam of all the things: north, south, winter, summer, fire, ice.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The argument around "wrapping up the Southron" storyline makes more sense than any of the foreshadowing I've seen WRT how long Jon stays inside Ghost. And it could be that Jon isn't in Ghost that long at all, but that the chapters are spaced out so that it covers a good portion of the book and allows GRRM to wrap up some fairly hefty plot lines before Jon is brought back. And in terms of the show, that could mean that S6 is indeed Jon and Kit-less, except for the final scene of S6 which will be Jon coming back...somehow.

no idea how since Jon didn't say "Ghost" and doesn't appear to have warged

I'm very hard pressed to believe that Jon will take Drogon since the relationship between Dany and Drogon is deeper than just rider/mount. It could be that she dies and Drogon is then "free" for Jon but....I don't know. I rather like the idea of Jon riding (or warging) the dragon named for his father, wearing his black armor, with his white wolf by his side(if Ghost survives, which I doubt and if not, then with Longclaw with its white wolf handle) thus bringing all the color motifs together in one imagine which is ultimately what Jon is--the amalgam of all the things: north, south, winter, summer, fire, ice.

As to how Jon will come back:

While I really don't know, that lack of saying "Ghost" in the show is not a big deal. The producers can simply have Jon appear in Ghost in S6. Jon does not need to have said Ghost to have warged into Ghost. Kit said in an interview that he wants to warg a wolf -- I suspect he said that knowing it was coming in S6.

As to the Drogon issue -- once again, we agree. :smug: The backstory regarding dragon binding is one dragon to one rider. I don't see how warging (or skinchanging to be technical) a dragon can undo that life-long bond -- although maybe it could cause some sort of "psychological" battle for control of the dragon, but I don't see how that plays out on the pages of a book. Maybe, but I agree that Jon on Rhaegal just seems more consistent with his destiny.

[IceFire125]

I don't see Jon riding Rhaegal.

I think Rhaegal will be mounted by either fAegon or Euron/Victarion, most likely the former, to make a true Dance 2.0 happen.

Drogon moved quicker than a striking cobra. Flame roared from his mouth, orange and scarlet and black, searing the meat before it began to fall. As his sharp black teeth snapped shut around it, Rhaegal’s head darted close, as if to steal the prize from his brother’s jaws, but Drogon swallowed and screamed, and the smaller green dragon could only hiss in frustration.

“Stop that, Rhaegal,” Dany said in annoyance, giving his head a swat. “You had the last one. I’ll have no greedy dragons.”

**In fact, I could see Euron/Victarion riding Rhaegal first due to the horn, then fAegon (no horns needed--Valyrian blood of Blackfyre descent) taking over and mounting it after Euron/Victarion dies, all within a short time.

Jon will ride Drogon. I could see possibilities of these happening:

1. Dany falls for Jon, loves him all of her heart and soul. Maybe it's that Targaryen longing by Dany for him, but it could also just be by merit and by romantic chance. It's the most likely that the love for Jon is Dany's ultimate betrayal for love when Jon takes Drogon away. I'm kind of 50/50 in believing this because it breaks the rule set by Martin, to have 1 rider for 1 dragon. However, if it does happened this way, I have strong believe that Jon will break Drogon's bond with Dany purely by the mythic mix of Jon's blood. That just as the black wings of the raven landed near Jon during his election for the next LC of the NW. The black wings of Drogon will play a similar, even bigger influence by either landing and standing next to Jon or allowing him to ride him in pure submission, openly in front of Dany and all of the lords of the great houses in Westeros at the Great Council, to elect a new king.

2. Start similar to no.1, but she's willing to die for Jon in a battle (or maybe childbirth?), thus breaking her bond with Drogon for Jon to mount him.

Or, Martin could just do a deus-ICE DRAGON-ex machina, which would be pretty awesome also. ^_^

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't see Jon riding Rhaegal.

I think Rhaegal will be mounted by either fAegon or Euron/Victarion, most likely the former, to make a true Dance 2.0 happen.

Drogon moved quicker than a striking cobra. Flame roared from his mouth, orange and scarlet and black, searing the meat before it began to fall. As his sharp black teeth snapped shut around it, Rhaegal’s head darted close, as if to steal the prize from his brother’s jaws, but Drogon swallowed and screamed, and the smaller green dragon could only hiss in frustration.

“Stop that, Rhaegal,” Dany said in annoyance, giving his head a swat. “You had the last one. I’ll have no greedy dragons.”

**In fact, I could see Euron/Victarion riding Rhaegal first due to the horn, then fAegon (no horns needed--Valyrian blood of Blackfyre descent) taking over and mounting it after Euron/Victarion dies, all within a short time.

Jon will ride Drogon. I could see possibilities of these happening:

1. Dany falls for Jon, loves him all of her heart and soul. Maybe it's that Targaryen longing by Dany for him, but it could also just be by merit and by romantic chance. It's the most likely that the love for Jon is Dany's ultimate betrayal for love when Jon takes Drogon away. I'm kind of 50/50 in believing this because it breaks the rule set by Martin, to have 1 rider for 1 dragon. However, if it does happened this way, I have strong believe that Jon will break Drogon's bond with Dany purely by the mythic mix of Jon's blood. That just as the black wings of the raven landed near Jon during his election for the next LC of the NW. The black wings of Drogon will play a similar, even bigger influence by either landing and standing next to Jon or allowing him to ride him in pure submission, openly in front of all of the lords of the great houses in Westeros at the Great Council, to elect a new king.

2. Start similar to no.1, but she's willingly die for Jon in a battle (or maybe childbirth?), thus breaking her bond with Drogon for Jon to mount him.

Or, Martin could just do an deus-ICE DRAGON-ex machina, which would be pretty awesome also. ^_^

But fAegon will almost certainly die in DoD 2.0. Do you think Rhaegal dies as well? If not, who rides Rhaegal after fAegon?

And I really don't think the dragon horn binds dragons. There is good evidence that it binds people for as long as the person who blows the horn lives. There is a fascinating youtube presentation that explains how Euron won the vote by having the horn blown -- and then as soon as the person who blew the horn dies, everyone turns against Euron and no longer shows any interest in following his plan. And this theory also explains that the Moqorro with Vic is not the original Moqorro we met with Tyrion -- but a wizard-ally of Euron who is disguised as Moqorro. The theory really made a lot of sense to me.

[IceFire125]

But fAegon will almost certainly die in DoD 2.0. Do you think Rhaegal dies as well? If not, who rides Rhaegal after fAegon?

In Dance 1.0, Targaryens and their dragons die. So what does this mean?

I believe the war for Dawn will happen before Dance 2.0. The 3 that will mount Dany's dragon for the fight for Dawn will be, Dany-Drogon, Tyrion-Viserion, fAegon-Rhaegal.

And Jon?... not yet. There will be a space of time that Martin must fulfilled Jon's foreshadowing with the Others (we need to erase the imagery/concept we have from the show for this).

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. “There you are. Jon, damn it, don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.”

“Your lordship knows best, I am sure. Might I ask about these corpses in the ice cells? They make the men uneasy. And to keep them under guard? Surely that is a waste of two good men, unless you fear that they …”

“… will rise? I pray they do.”

Septon Cellador paled. “Seven save us.” Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. “Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?”

“Can they talk?” asked Jon Snow. “I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him.”

...

“My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn.”

Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?”

The fight for dawn is to fight for another truce, another treaty. Jon will learn the true purpose and will find that they are not evil. The Last Hero/AA, did not win the battle for dawn, it is the story made-up by humanity to explain that they survived, thus they have won. The true story was that, he was able to attain a truce, an armistice (think North Korea and South Korea, still technically at war with each other).

This will go in the narrative as Jon's ultimate conflict with himself. You see, the 3 heads of the dragon is and will be against him, they do not know what Jon has learned about the Others, and he must stop them so that the armistice he had finish forging with the Others will stay in effect.

Humanity is on the verge of destroying the Others with Fire and Blood. His attempt to dissuade humanity to stop, failed. This is where Jon fulfills one of his big purpose, his SONG of ICE and FIRE. He has to fight humanity to save the Others.

We go back to Jon's scene with Gilly:

“A mother can’t leave her son, or else she’s cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m’lord. We saved him from the cold.”

“Men say that freezing to death is almost peaceful. Fire, though … do you see the candle, Gilly?”

She looked at the flame. “Yes.”

“Touch it. Put your hand over the flame.”

Her big brown eyes grew bigger still. She did not move.

“Do it.” Kill the boy. “Now.”

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

Jon cannot allow FIRE to overcome ICE. He will play as the true protector of the realm... for all.

[BearQueen87]

But fAegon will almost certainly die in DoD 2.0. Do you think Rhaegal dies as well? If not, who rides Rhaegal after fAegon?

And I really don't think the dragon horn binds dragons. There is good evidence that it binds people for as long as the person who blows the horn lives. There is a fascinating youtube presentation that explains how Euron won the vote by having the horn blown -- and then as soon as the person who blew the horn dies, everyone turns against Euron and no longer shows any interest in following his plan. And this theory also explains that the Moqorro with Vic is not the original Moqorro we met with Tyrion -- but a wizard-ally of Euron who is disguised as Moqorro. The theory really made a lot of sense to me.

Agreed. (and do you have a link to that vid? sounds fascinating since I've never believed that the horn does what Euron says...)

[Nights Kings Queen]

I'm very hard pressed to believe that Jon will take Drogon since the relationship between Dany and Drogon is deeper than just rider/mount. It could be that she dies and Drogon is then "free" for Jon but....I don't know. I rather like the idea of Jon riding (or warging) the dragon named for his father, wearing his black armor, with his white wolf by his side(if Ghost survives, which I doubt and if not, then with Longclaw with its white wolf handle) thus bringing all the color motifs together in one imagine which is ultimately what Jon is--the amalgam of all the things: north, south, winter, summer, fire, ice.

I agree. Drogon and Dany have a very strong bond, he seems to sense what she thinks and almost seems to know what way she is meant to go.

If dany should die I think drogon will have to die with her. Their reletionship imo, seems to be stronger than rider/dragon, it's almost like (as dany describes it) them being one.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Agreed. (and do you have a link to that vid? sounds fascinating since I've never believed that the horn does what Euron says...)

I had a feeling you were going to ask me that -- here is the link. Enjoy -- and let me know what you think.

[RumHam]

This is especially important right now because the servers are overloaded due to the show, hence it being in "performance mode". Y'all know this already, and I just deleted several posts that violated this rule and suspended the people who did it for spamming.

Any idea when we might be leaving performance mode now that the show has run it's course?

Also I hope that guy who always pops in to say "hodor" in these threads didn't get suspended for it. It may be a dumb tradition, but I sorta doubt he was seriously contributing to the server overload by doing it.

[wolfmaid7]

In Dance 1.0, Targaryens and their dragons die. So what does this mean?

I believe the war for Dawn will happen before Dance 2.0. The 3 that will mount Dany's dragon for the fight for Dawn will be, Dany-Drogon, Tyrion-Viserion, fAegon-Rhaegal.

And Jon?... not yet. There will be a space of time that Martin must fulfilled Jon's foreshadowing with the Others (we need to erase the imagery/concept we have from the show for this).

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. “There you are. Jon, damn it, don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.”

“Your lordship knows best, I am sure. Might I ask about these corpses in the ice cells? They make the men uneasy. And to keep them under guard? Surely that is a waste of two good men, unless you fear that they …”

“… will rise? I pray they do.”

Septon Cellador paled. “Seven save us.” Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. “Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?”

“Can they talk?” asked Jon Snow. “I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him.”

...

“My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn.”

Ser Patrek smiled. “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?”

The fight for dawn is to fight for another truce, another treaty. Jon will learn the true purpose and will find that they are not evil. The Last Hero/AA, did not win the battle for dawn, it is the story made-up by humanity to explain that they survived, thus they have won. The true story was that, he was able to attain a truce, an armistice (think North Korea and South Korea, still technically at war with each other).

This will go in the narrative as Jon's ultimate conflict with himself. You see, the 3 heads of the dragon is and will be against him, they do not know what Jon has learned about the Others, and he must stop them so that the armistice he had finish forging with the Others will stay in effect.

Humanity is on the verge of destroying the Others with Fire and Blood. His attempt to dissuade humanity to stop, failed. This is where Jon fulfills one of his big purpose, his SONG of ICE and FIRE. He has to fight humanity to save the Others.

We go back to Jon's scene with Gilly:

“A mother can’t leave her son, or else she’s cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m’lord. We saved him from the cold.”

“Men say that freezing to death is almost peaceful. Fire, though … do you see the candle, Gilly?”

She looked at the flame. “Yes.”

“Touch it. Put your hand over the flame.”

Her big brown eyes grew bigger still. She did not move.

“Do it.” Kill the boy. “Now.”

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

Jon cannot allow FIRE to overcome ICE. He will play as the true protector of the realm... for all.

I agree with the bolded 100% and just wanted to say this was absolutely brilliant.I really love love how you tied the foreshadowing of Jon's role with the Others.If we look at all the other realm inhabitants that include the Children,Giants they have a voice(though not for the benefit of all).Someone that speaks for them "ice" has no voice,no one that we know that acts as that role or is in it for the benefit of all.I think it is a role that Jon will play for as you put it, but its something that will win him no glory,praise;his name will probably be a cursed name.An unsung hero who will most likely be looked at as a villain.