R+L=J v.145

[falcotron]

After reading all of GRRMs' GOT books ( including the Untold History ) it's my humble theory Jon is/was in fact Robert Baratheons son, conceived prior to Lyannas abduction.This would explain Ned Starks reluctance of telling anyone of Jons heritage, and Melisandres constant interest in him.

I think you're reading too much from the show--where Mel show a lot more interest in Jon--into the books. (Of course it's possible that the show is just ahead of the books here, not off on a tangent, but it's probably not safe to assume that...)

In fact, no matter how hard her visions push her to look at him, she ignores them. (How much more blatant does R'hllor have to be? She looks for Azor Ahai, and he only shows her Snow...) She doesn't even seem to understand why Stannis thinks Jon is important for his own irrelevant king-stuff, much less why Jon should be important for her saving-the-world mission.

Also, since we see into her PoV, she doesn't seem to think of Jon Snow as a Baratheon bastard (or, for that matter, a Targaryen bastard), but as what he appears to be, Ned's bastard (which still makes him Robb's half-brother, and descendant of the ancient Stark Kings, but she doesn't even seem to make much of that...). So, even if Robert+L=J were true, it wouldn't explain Mel having any interest in J unless she knew about it.

[Sly Wren]

I am new on this forum so I hope I don't step on any toes. R+L=J seems to be quite popular on this forum and I actually subscribe to it myself but a lot of people assume certain things. For example, because Lyanna was not so fond of Robert she had to run away with Rhaegar, as if that's a standard response. I actually still think she was taken by force. In my eyes, it fits with the very neurotic and arrogant personality that Rhaegar had.

Welcome!

I agree on the weirdness--Lyanna lets Ned know she's not happy with being promised to a man-whore, then supposedly runs off with a married man who insults his wife in front of everyone by giving Lyanna that crown--that alone makes me think something's off. Lyanna may be young, but she's figured out Robert. The idea that she wouldn't see what was wrong with Rhaegar's behavior at that tournament with all those people around, seeing their reactions--that's hard for me to swallow.

Am thinking that Rhaegar is likely to be like many in the novels--some very good qualities, some not so good. I don't think Barristan is lying. But Aemon suggests (as does Dany's vision--take it with a grain of salt) that Rhaegar was chasing a prophesy. We've seen how stupid and even ruthless that can make people in Martin's world. Can't see Rhaegar as being immune to all that, especially after that tournament.

[MtnLion]

Agreed--assuming Rhaegar is his father, if Jon does need his Targ side for something, can see him not being at all happy about it and definitely seeing it as a threat whether Lyanna had a "romance" with Rhaegar or something much darker. Either way--this could be ugly, especially since like most of his "siblings" he sees himself as a Stark.

Still, if it's necessary (and that's a big if), Jon's had to embrace the "enemy" in some ways before. This would be really personal, though.

Am still inclined to see his role in the story and his strength as coming from his being a Stark--not magic, not "blood," but emotion, psychology, humanity. Agree that whatever he might need to "tie into" as a Targaryen is unlikely to give him half as much as being a Stark of Winterfell. Being "Targaryen" may not be much of a factor at all.

Being a "Stark" may not be much of a factor at all. I think that you are confirming that you believe that Jon is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which is the fundamental idea behind this thread. That Jon is heir may not be important to the story, either. On the other hand it might be the entire point of the story. I just hope that GRRM and I live long enough to see the completed series.

There is no darkness about what we know. Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, died with her name on his lips (probably infuriating Robert with his dying breath). What we know of Lyanna suggests that she is going to resist anything "dark" going on between the two. There is just too much to suggest that a marriage took place, to bury our heads in the sand and repeat "Nay. Nay. Nay."

[wolfmaid7]

After reading all of GRRMs' GOT books ( including the Untold History ) it's my humble theory Jon is/was in fact Robert Baratheons son, conceived prior to Lyannas abduction.This would explain Ned Starks reluctance of telling anyone of Jons heritage, and Melisandres constant interest in him.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei and Jaime were in fact Targaryens, partially based on Tywin Lannisters' strange inability or simple denial to see the truth regarding those close to him. Just a wild theory of mine :) And it still comes out to R+L=J ;)

I shake your hands.

[Lord Varys]

JM,

I was not talking about esoteric ways of prophecy fulfilment. I was referring to the fact that Jon Snow doesn't exactly fit the established prophecy bill which means it will be very unlikely that everybody suddenly jumps on him as the saviour guy just because his biological father happened to be Rhaegar.

Nobody in Westeros gathered round the bastards of Robert Baratheon and considered them saviours or important. And they actually seem to resemble their father.

Not to mention that Jon may have trouble enough accepting his true parentage so that going along and buying stuff Melisandre believes and preaches (if she is still alive by that point), and about which she would have been wrong before is a very unlikely scenario if ask me. Especially since Jon should actually know what happened to Stannis after he began listening to her and her tales.

Jon certainly should do as much as he could to fight against the Others but I'd be very surprised if trying to claim to be a prophesied saviour would be among those things. Not for him.

Perhaps if he learns about everything from Bran and Bloodraven but even then it would be hard for him to swallow it whole - especially since they could only give him information about the past, not whether the prophecy actually refers to him. And if I was Jon any news about Dany would convince me that I'm not, in fact, the One. But of course that would depend on whether the Wall actually receives that information. Could still take awhile.

[wolfmaid7]

Because people would keep bitching about her choice of sex partner(s)

Now that's a path that makes me very uncomfortable, ever since Bran's consciousness leaving Summer to return into the crypts and everything feeling dark and dead. I cannot help but the crypts keep reminding me of the CotF cave, and not in a good way.

Oh, it's another of them "

" things, only this one fights with guns and lasers. And, he gets killed and resurrected reconstructed.

It is scary and I believe identity-internal-and how they view themselves in relation to the world around them will play a big role in all members of the Stark pack.

[falcotron]

Am thinking that Rhaegar is likely to be like many in the novels--some very good qualities, some not so good. I don't think Barristan is lying. But Aemon suggests (as does Dany's vision--take it with a grain of salt) that Rhaegar was chasing a prophesy. We've seen how stupid and even ruthless that can make people in Martin's world. Can't see Rhaegar as being immune to all that, especially after that tournament.

I picture him as being sufficiently prophecy-obsessed that he'd include the prophecy as part of his proposal/proposition/whatever to Lyanna.

"You're beautiful and smart and most importantly I need to produce a third child in a hurry with someone descended from a different line of ancient kings to save the world and according to my research you seem to fit the bill" doesn't sound like a winning pick-up line, but phrased a little better, and coming from a handsome and charming crown prince, it might work a little better.

[Sly Wren]

I picture him as being sufficiently prophecy-obsessed that he'd include the prophecy as part of his proposal/proposition/whatever to Lyanna.

"You're beautiful and smart and most importantly I need to produce a third child in a hurry with someone descended from a different line of ancient kings to save the world and according to my research you seem to fit the bill" doesn't sound like a winning pick-up line, but phrased a little better, and coming from a handsome and charming crown prince, it might work a little better.

Maybe--but that would have to be one hell of a speech. She's made it clear she doesn't want an unfaithful husband, made it clear she'll speak her mind, now he's just insulted his wife and future queen in front of everyone who's anyone. She dislikes Robert despite his being Ned's friend and has now watched everyone's (including Ned's) reactions to Rhaegar's behavior. But he's supposed to convince her with charm, a crazy sounding prophesy, and memories of a pretty song?

Not denying teenagers in general can be stupid. But given the smidgens of info we have--plus the imagery of her statue with tears of blood in the Winterfell crypts, Theon's vision of her spattered with gore--Arthurian romances can have plenty of awfulness in them. Maybe this is a "sabine women" scenario or Stockholm syndrome or something. But really hard to see this as a straight up romance.

[BearQueen87]

I picture him as being sufficiently prophecy-obsessed that he'd include the prophecy as part of his proposal/proposition/whatever to Lyanna.

"You're beautiful and smart and most importantly I need to produce a third child in a hurry with someone descended from a different line of ancient kings to save the world and according to my research you seem to fit the bill" doesn't sound like a winning pick-up line, but phrased a little better, and coming from a handsome and charming crown prince, it might work a little better.

I think it might be a bit of a mischaracterization of R to call him prophecy-obsessed (something I've called him myself in the past but have since realigned a bit). This isn't to say that he wasn't concerned with it--more so than anyone else in Westeros (except maybe Bloodraven) but not as myopic as we once may have thought. JonCon never remembers Rhaegar going on and on about it, for instance. And we know that they were close friends. So either R never talked about it with JonCon (but why not) or if they did, GRRM is keeping it in his hat (but why). If there was time Lyanna doesn't seem to have mentioned it to Ned because he doesn't consider Jon any sort of supernatural entity, just carefully hidden clues that he's R and L's son.

I think R and L did discuss prophecy but potentially until later, after they went off together.

[Sly Wren]

Being a "Stark" may not be much of a factor at all. I think that you are confirming that you believe that Jon is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which is the fundamental idea behind this thread. That Jon is heir may not be important to the story, either. On the other hand it might be the entire point of the story. I just hope that GRRM and I live long enough to see the completed series.

There is no darkness about what we know. Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, died with her name on his lips (probably infuriating Robert with his dying breath). What we know of Lyanna suggests that she is going to resist anything "dark" going on between the two. There is just too much to suggest that a marriage took place, to bury our heads in the sand and repeat "Nay. Nay. Nay."

Agreed we won't know until the books come out exactly what the significance of everything is.

But the significance of Jon's "Starkness"--that's already at least a factor in his psyche. Ghost, siblings, visions of Bran-as-tree--Jon's really connected emotionally and psychologically to the Starks--it's who he is. Makes sense--they raised him and love him. Just saying his tie to the Targaryens very unlikely to be anything like that--could easily be a factor in how he sees his potentially Targaryan side.

I doubt we're going to agree re: Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. And, as you say, we won't know for sure until the books come out. For now, I see a lot of inconsistencies, not to mention holes. But, at least we might agree that how this is all going to play out will be very interesting to read, yes?

[BearQueen87]

Maybe--but that would have to be one hell of a speech. She's made it clear she doesn't want an unfaithful husband, made it clear she'll speak her mind, now he's just insulted his wife and future queen in front of everyone who's anyone. She dislikes Robert despite his being Ned's friend and has now watched everyone's (including Ned's) reactions to Rhaegar's behavior. But he's supposed to convince her with charm, a crazy sounding prophesy, and memories of a pretty song?

Not denying teenagers in general can be stupid. But given the smidgens of info we have--plus the imagery of her statue with tears of blood in the Winterfell crypts, Theon's vision of her spattered with gore--Arthurian romances can have plenty of awfulness in them. Maybe this is a "sabine women" scenario or Stockholm syndrome or something. But really hard to see this as a straight up romance.

But what is a straight up romance? I mean, in the overtly cliche Hollywood meaning of romance--no certainly not. R and L both did die and not in each others arms. That's fairly unromantic. But I do think there was love. I do think they loved each other and there might have been other mitigating factors--prophecy, getting away from Robert, perhaps some political considerations (who knows...)--but to take away any romantic qualities to it also feels wrong. GRRM presented the story of RL as decidedly unromantic (R rapes L to death!) but carefully, over time, peels back those layers to reveal something that was probably far more complicated. I personally have a harder time viewing it as anything other than heavily romantic given what we know about R and L (and Ned who doesn't straight up loathe Rhaegar) and perhaps more than that, what we know about GRRM and how he does like romances, but he also enjoys playing with them in a unusual way.

[Balerion the kitten]

I think it might be a bit of a mischaracterization of R to call him prophecy-obsessed (something I've called him myself in the past but have since realigned a bit). This isn't to say that he wasn't concerned with it--more so than anyone else in Westeros (except maybe Bloodraven) but not as myopic as we once may have thought. JonCon never remembers Rhaegar going on and on about it, for instance. And we know that they were close friends. So either R never talked about it with JonCon (but why not) or if they did, GRRM is keeping it in his hat (but why). If there was time Lyanna doesn't seem to have mentioned it to Ned because he doesn't consider Jon any sort of supernatural entity, just carefully hidden clues that he's R and L's son.

I think R and L did discuss prophecy but potentially until later, after they went off together.

Jon likes to believe they were. But if we look at what they're friendship really was, it wasn't close (certainly not like his other relationships).

We know he shared these prophecies to close friends. Arthur dayne (barristan chapter) and probably Elia, come to mind. Jon was probably nothing more than (quote) one of the gaggle of young lords competing for Rhaegars favour

[BearQueen87]

Jon likes to believe they were. But if we look at what they're friendship really was, it wasn't close like his other relationships with friends.

We know he shared these prophecies to close friends. Arthur dayne (barristan chapter) and probably Elia. Jon was probably nothing more than (quote) one of the gaggle of young lords competing for his favour

Close enough that R included JonCon in the plot to take down Aerys; close enough that Aerys named JonCon Hand thinking it would do Aerys good. Do I think they were as close as JonCon believes? No but JonCon is also in love with the man. That skews the perception. But Rhaegar included JonCon in what was going on. They weren't NOT close. R was obviously closest with Dayne and probably shared prophecy with him--and I think Dayne was probably more open to it since it seems that House Dayne has it's own mythological understanding of the world that continues to be passed down with Dawn and it choosing the next Sword of the Morning or whatever (my point being that Arthur was already more inclined to believe prophecy and mysticism)

But my point is that no one seems to recognize Rhaegar as prophecy obsessed except the outside reader and that's because we are outside the narrative. When people describe Rhaegar, they never start off or even include "prophecy obsessed" as a defining characteristic. Even if he's keeping it all on the DL, how does word not get out? Bookish to a fault we are told but no one knows what kinds of books he's reading, what he's interested in. Even the "I must be a warrior' story lacks the proper context about what it is that R read.

[IceFire125]

But my point is that no one seems to recognize Rhaegar as prophecy obsessed except the outside reader and that's because we are outside the narrative. When people describe Rhaegar, they never start off or even include "prophecy obsessed" as a defining characteristic. Even if he's keeping it all on the DL, how does word not get out? Bookish to a fault we are told but no one knows what kinds of books he's reading, what he's interested in. Even the "I must be a warrior' story lacks the proper context about what it is that R read.

I actually think it did, but in a mocking way by people during that time, where Martin used it to even reinforce subtle clues and hints of R+L=J.

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.”

“I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

“You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed.”

“As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him.

[Lady Darry]

Being "Targaryen" may not be much of a factor at all.

If Targ blood is not important then why is Ashara not his mother and Brandon his father? Maybe it is all about him sleeping with Arya (he could do the same with A+B=J) or R+L=J is just an interesting piece of Robert’s rebellion. After all Jon is constantly associated with Ice, with Starks, he wants to know who his mother is and it would mean something to him. But his mother is a Stark. he would probably care more if his mother would be a Targ, because he genuinely wants to know who she was and he will always perceive Ned as his father.

Will the revelation that his mother is a Stark make him feel even more Stark and will it make him even more associated with Ice and even less with fire? (This is completely personal, but I will be disappointed if it is just about the prophecy and the Prince that was promised and he will not be even aware that his Targ blood is relevant)

About Lyanna's willingness

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. (Jon XII)

I always thought that one of the reasons GRRM introduced this wildling tradition is so that Jon will view his mother's abduction in a romantic way (even though it sounds horrible).

[Sly Wren]

But what is a straight up romance? I mean, in the overtly cliche Hollywood meaning of romance--no certainly not. R and L both did die and not in each others arms. That's fairly unromantic. But I do think there was love. I do think they loved each other and there might have been other mitigating factors--prophecy, getting away from Robert, perhaps some political considerations (who knows...)--but to take away any romantic qualities to it also feels wrong. GRRM presented the story of RL as decidedly unromantic (R rapes L to death!) but carefully, over time, peels back those layers to reveal something that was probably far more complicated. I personally have a harder time viewing it as anything other than heavily romantic given what we know about R and L (and Ned who doesn't straight up loathe Rhaegar) and perhaps more than that, what we know about GRRM and how he does like romances, but he also enjoys playing with them in a unusual way.

Fair point on definition of "romance"--as I said, Arthurian romances are full of all sorts of horrible things and still get painted as romance. Things that would land you in jail now--like kidnapping. Arthurian romances romanticized that. Could see this as maybe turning out gothic--though I really hope Rhaegar doesn't suddenly turn into Rochester--calling out "Jane!"

And you're right about "no love"--there could have been idealizing on either or both sides--about each other, about the prophesy, any of it. But right now, what we've got is a very short list of inconsistent details. Which don't preclude romance--but, if there is romance, may end up being a very dark romance. This just doesn't look overly healthy or wise. But then, very few Arthurian legends are remotely healthy.

Bottom line: many loved Rhaegar--on his side. And thus are likely to want to see him positively. And many loved Lyanna. What details we have are few and far between and odd--which should make what's coming a great read.

[Balerion the kitten]

Close enough that R included JonCon in the plot to take down Aerys; close enough that Aerys named JonCon Hand thinking it would do Aerys good. Do I think they were as close as JonCon believes? No but JonCon is also in love with the man. That skews the perception. But Rhaegar included JonCon in what was going on. They weren't NOT close. R was obviously closest with Dayne and probably shared prophecy with him--and I think Dayne was probably more open to it since it seems that House Dayne has it's own mythological understanding of the world that continues to be passed down with Dawn and it choosing the next Sword of the Morning or whatever (my point being that Arthur was already more inclined to believe prophecy and mysticism)

I think I need to do a re-read :blush:.

But disagree on Aerys part. He named him hand because he wanted someone he thought to be like Robert, and he thought that was Jon. Doesn't mean it adds to their relationship, IMO

[Lady Darry]

“As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him.

It is interesting that they jested that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Because it would fit more to compare him to Aerys I. Aerys I was the bookish one and he was also reading about prophecys.

[BearQueen87]

Fair point on definition of "romance"--as I said, Arthurian romances are full of all sorts of horrible things and still get painted as romance. Things that would land you in jail now--like kidnapping. Arthurian romances romanticized that. Could see this as maybe turning out gothic--though I really hope Rhaegar doesn't suddenly turn into Rochester--calling out "Jane!"

And you're right about "no love"--there could have been idealizing on either or both sides--about each other, about the prophesy, any of it. But right now, what we've got is a very short list of inconsistent details. Which don't preclude romance--but, if there is romance, may end up being a very dark romance. This just doesn't look overly healthy or wise. But then, very few Arthurian legends are remotely healthy.

Bottom line: many loved Rhaegar--on his side. And thus are likely to want to see him positively. And many loved Lyanna. What details we have are few and far between and odd--which should make what's coming a great read.

Agreed. :)

I think I need to do a re-read :blush:.

But disagree on Aerys part. He named him hand because he wanted someone he thought to be like Robert, and he thought that was Jon. Doesn't mean it adds to their relationship, IMO

Ah, I admit the Hand bit was a last second addition I didn't think through closely before posting. Poor evidence on my part. I think it's enough to say that WRT JonCon and Rhaegar they were closer than Rhaegar was with the other "high lords vying for his favor" but...JonCon was no Arthur Dayne.

[IceFire125]

It is interesting that they jested that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Because it would fit more to compare him to Aerys I. Aerys I was the bookish one and he was also reading about prophecys.

Which could be ironic, in a sense that among the many books and scrolls that pertains to sorcery and magic Baelor burned, Rhaegar found the very scrolls that survived the burning, pages of Daenys' Signs and Portents.