Evidence that the Lemon Tree Was Not Originally in Braavos

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I buy it. Good job making typo-ade out of lemons, OP!

[Nights Kings Queen]

If it was just an editorial mistake then he would fix it, like Jeyne's hips. Especially if this many theories are coming out of it

[Lord Lannister]

The illemonati will briefly go nuts, then spin an elaborate denial or loopy explanation as to why this is. Fear not, the lemongate will never be closed.

[Nights Kings Queen]

I hate to be the party pooper, but I think someone (Mormont perhaps?) has raised this point before, and yet Lemongate persists like a bad case of teenage acne, or those stubborn blackheads in the creases of your nose that just won't go away!

So sadly, I fear Lemongate won't be dying anytime soon.

Sorry, slightly new here, what's the lemongate theory?

[Lord Lannister]

Sorry, slightly new here, what's the lemongate theory?

A search will get you the elaborate threads, but the short version is Dany never lived in Bravos because there's no way a lemon tree could grow there. The speculation is that she was unknowingly in Dorne the whole time. A theory that has so many holes it's not even funny.

[wefollowthecomet]

Sorry, slightly new here, what's the lemongate theory?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87889-there-are-no-lemon-trees-in-braavos-questioning-danys-childhood/

Just google "no lemon trees in Braavos" . It is a surprisingly popular theory.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I always said the lemon tree was in Tyrosh or Lys or any of the other cities she stayed at. It really doesn't matter 1 way or the other, people just blew it way out of proportion because they saw a video with graphics.

[Lady Winter Rose]

My gradfather has Lemon tree. Lemon tree needs winds and sun, but we ripe lemons during winter.

Also, lemon tree is just regular bush, not a tree. I seen it with my own eyes.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Great catch LM, I can just imagine people at the library being like "what does this crazy person want with this magazine from 2 decades ago? Oh it's to check to see if some obscure detail matches the current version of ASOIAF. Makes total sense now."

I wonder why he decided to change it from Tyrosh to Bravoos? In addition to what You posted about Bravoos becoming more relevant to the story later on, wasn't Aegon hiding out in Tyrosh? Or was it just that he dyed his hair blue for his Tyroshi mom and they never said where he was hiding out? Maybe GRRM had the plan for him coming back from the get go and didn't want all the Targs growing up in one place.

The maester at the library said, "Oh, you're one of those Game of Thones people..."

Aegon died his hair in honor of his Tyroshi mum.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Very fair.

I understand you are just saying that the lemons symbolize a bitter ending for Dany, more or less. But wouldn't the Tyroshi connections to the GC/Greens be wiped out in Dany's story with the change of the location of the house with the red door? Is it still applicable?

It seems more who cares she's misremembering or was misinformed about her location than a series of mistakes concerning her Tyroshi accents and lemon trees, to me. I think both sides of lemon gate have merit, I'm just on the other.

There's no reason to abandon the possible Tyrosh plot line during the Second Dance of the Dragons. But the move may have been required to advance some plotline involving Braavos at which we can only guess at this point.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm glad you didn't poo in your pants.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I hate to be the party pooper, but I think someone (Mormont perhaps?) has raised this point before, and yet Lemongate persists like a bad case of teenage acne, or those stubborn blackheads in the creases of your nose that just won't go away!

So sadly, I fear Lemongate won't be dying anytime soon.

It will go on and on and on. Heck it already continues on the first page. I was not aware of Mormont's statement. I followed a link to a second hand argument in Reddit. I wanted to prove or disprove the theory myself. Without seeing the original publication, the other theories have some merit, but if you find my source and testimony credible, I think you have to acknowledge that alternative theories are at least borderline crackpot.

[Lost Melnibonean]

whoa! if true, this destroys the whole Dany was ever in Dorne-theory.

I assure you, the change from Tyrosh in July 1996 to Braavos in August 1996 is true. I have a copy of the pages from Asimov's Sience Fiction July 1996, obtained from my county library through an inter library loan.

[Lost Melnibonean]

If it was just an editorial mistake then he would fix it, like Jeyne's hips. Especially if this many theories are coming out of it

That's my point, the lemon tree outside Daenerys' s window wasn't just an editorial mistake. He moved it, along with Daenerys, for a reason. I offered an explanation in the OP--to signal bitterness and disappointment at the end of Daenerys's arc.

[Lost Melnibonean]

My gradfather has Lemon tree. Lemon tree needs winds and sun, but we ripe lemons during winter.

Also, lemon tree is just regular bush, not a tree. I seen it with my own eyes.

That's why you would expect it in Tyrosh but not in Braavos. Your pop pop's tree might look like a bush, but if it pproduces lemons, it is a tree.

[Lady Darry]

But what was the purpose of the lemon tree? Well, Im glad you asked . . . You see, the lemon, of course, is defined by its yellow color and sour taste. In addition to its use as food and drink, lemons can be used to clean. After a brief review of the use of lemons in art and literature, my understanding is that the lemon symbolizes bitterness and disappointment.

The lemon is also used to symbolize power. The fruit appears to have originated in South Asia. Although they were known in Ancient Rome, they were not widely known in Europe until the tenth century. The first significant cultivation of lemons in Europe did not happen until the very end of the Middle Ages. Since they had to be imported to medieval Europe, lemons became associated with wealth and power. who think her weakness for lemon cakes is a symbol of her innocence and purity should take note and be wary. They might be comforted at least to note that within the Church, the lemon is considered a symbol of fidelity. And of course, as I'm sure will be discussed ad nauseam below by fans of Sansa and Daenerys, I am just a hater.) I believe The George included the lemon tree to foreshadow Daenerys's ultimate bitterness and disappointment.

Why it is not the other way around?

Bitterness and disappointment foreshadow Sansa's bitterness and disappointment and Lemon power foreshadow Dany's power and wealth?

Sansa is the one who is associated with disappointment in ASOIAF.

[sweetsunray]

Good work! :bowdown: :thumbsup:

As for the lemons... While it may in part symbolize innocense, I also think it symobolizes sourness/bitterness. When Lem is introduced to Arya et all there's a mention of him being of the sour sort. Both explanations can apply and even combine - youth, innocense, naïvity gone sour.

[RoamingRonin]

Will it ever end.

[LmL]

Bravo, bravo. Good research. Makes sense to me...

and I can add to your idea about bitterness and disappointment. The lemon trees are associated with the red door. The red door is super important for Dany. Of course it makes her think of home, but it's used as a symbol for reclaiming her dragon heritage. The door is the red comet to Daenerys's moon. In her most impotent dream, the wake the dragon dream, she is running and running towards the door, her feet melting stone, the gemstone eyed ghosts are cheering for her, then her "wings" break through her skin, and she flies through the door and soars over the plains, and people flee in terror of the shadow of her wings while she exalts. In another scene, dragonstone's thousand fires (meteor shower) are all red doors:

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind’s eye, all the doors were red.

​The red door represents her walking the dragon. Celestially, this happened when the comet hit the moon. Symbolically, this is what is happening in her dream. So, given the association between lemon trees and red doors, I would interpret his bitterness or disappointment at discovering her dragon heritage is not what she thought. I and already speculated that she would have to allow her dragons to be killed at the end, sacrificing them in some way, so perhaps that is the implication here.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why it is not the other way around?

Bitterness and disappointment foreshadow Sansa's bitterness and disappointment and Lemon power foreshadow Dany's power and wealth?

Sansa is the one who is associated with disappointment in ASOIAF.

Careful now... The sansanistas will not be happy. But at risk of provoking them, I believe the lemon tree and the lemon cakes spell bitterness and disappointment for both Sansa and Daenerys.