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Evidence that the Lemon Tree Was Not Originally in Braavos


Lost Melnibonean

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What I'm saying, with a great deal of confidence, my fleur de lis, is that The George intended for Daenerys to have spent her early childhood in Tyrosh, not Braavos, but for some reason decided to switch the location to Braavos

I don't think so. There is no evidence he decided to switch the LOCATION. What he switched, was the NAME. Switching the name does not necessarily switch everything else about the city.

I believe Dany's childhood city was ALWAYS intended to be in the north, in a free city reasonably near to Dragonstone. The city of Braavos (full of Italian style "bravos" and courtesans and modeled after Venice), was intended to be in the south. Originally, the northern city was called Tyrosh and the southern city called Braavos.

At some point he decided Dany's city and Braavos would be the same city. And at that time (I guess) he moved Braavos to the North where Dany's city was supposed to be.

We don't actually find out the location of Braavos until the maps published in Dance. If he had wanted it in the south, where lemon trees grow, nothing prevented him from putting it in the south. The early name change in no way effects where he chooses to put the city.

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Well... I guess HelenaExMachina was right. Lemongate lives. [sarcastic font] The George always intended to plant a lemon tree in a cold climate. He just changed the name, so it'd sound more Italian. [/sarcastic font]

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Well... I guess HelenaExMachina was right. Lemongate lives. [sarcastic font] The George always intended to plant a lemon tree in a cold climate. He just changed the name, so it'd sound more Italian. [/sarcastic font]

Sorry, man. You are free to argue that it was merely a mistake, and not a clue to some deep dark mystery. But if a mistake was made, it was made when FEAST and DANCE established that the city containing Dany's lemon tree was in a cold climate. Until then, there was no problem. The name of the city just did not matter.

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Bittersweet ending. I happen to agree with the OP. No need to make lemonade. Besides when I get tired of making lemonade, I make orange juice.

Do you by any chance use blood oranges? ;)

Lemons themselves are not bittersweet--you have to add some sugar to make them less bitter, and at that point you might as well add some water and ice while you're at it.

It's just hit me: this entire series is a recipe! The bitter disappointments of life + the sweet moments = lemonade. The human heart in conflict with itself = lemonade. It's all a metaphor for the irony of a drink best served cold that can only be made with a fruit that grows in a hot climate. You can't get the best of the lemons (from a hot place) unless you have some ice (from a cold place). They have to work together to survive and make good beverages...and working together means compromise, so neither side is entirely happy, which brings us back to bittersweet, which brings us back to lemonade.

Winner of the thread!!!!

Gosh, I've never won a thread before. :blushing:

<snip

So while I agree with you completely about putting to ground the stupid lemongate BS, I am not certain that the lemons foreshadow Dany's death.

True, there are things far more bitter than death.

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Do you by any chance use blood oranges? ;)

Lemons themselves are not bittersweet--you have to add some sugar to make them less bitter, and at that point you might as well add some water and ice while you're at it.

It's just hit me: this entire series is a recipe! The bitter disappointments of life + the sweet moments = lemonade. The human heart in conflict with itself = lemonade. It's all a metaphor for the irony of a drink best served cold that can only be made with a fruit that grows in a hot climate. You can't get the best of the lemons (from a hot place) unless you have some ice (from a cold place). They have to work together to survive and make good beverages...and working together means compromise, so neither side is entirely happy, which brings us back to bittersweet, which brings us back to lemonade.

/westeros forums

Nothing more to talk about, you've solved the puzzle ;)

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I don't think so. There is no evidence he decided to switch the LOCATION. What he switched, was the NAME. Switching the name does not necessarily switch everything else about the city.

I believe Dany's childhood city was ALWAYS intended to be in the north, in a free city reasonably near to Dragonstone. The city of Braavos (full of Italian style "bravos" and courtesans and modeled after Venice), was intended to be in the south. Originally, the northern city was called Tyrosh and the southern city called Braavos.

At some point he decided Dany's city and Braavos would be the same city. And at that time (I guess) he moved Braavos to the North where Dany's city was supposed to be.

We don't actually find out the location of Braavos until the maps published in Dance. If he had wanted it in the south, where lemon trees grow, nothing prevented him from putting it in the south. The early name change in no way effects where he chooses to put the city.

I can buy this

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In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending back to Winterfell. In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ened up at her father's execution. Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell. You referred to Sansa sharing lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. And Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment.I am glad iI'm not associated with House Dalt of Lemonwood. At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later he stood accused of regicide. Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father. In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. I only got a few chapters into Dance...

There's more in Dance. In Jon Iv, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more. The merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, but come on, who ddoesn't eat Pike without lemonn and Ysilla was from Dorne. Still, I woulda passed. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Go figure. Hmm... Daenerys's terrace in Mereen had lemon trees... Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden. Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave her a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made no one think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes. The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweetened lemon juice from the Queenvs Hand.
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I assure you, the change from Tyrosh in July 1996 to Braavos in August 1996 is true. I have a copy of the pages from Asimov's Sience Fiction July 1996, obtained from my county library through an inter library loan.

Do you have photographic evidence to back this claim up? (Mostly, I just want to see that issue. I can't justify spending the money some online sellers have it priced at.)

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Do you have photographic evidence to back this claim up? (Mostly, I just want to see that issue. I can't justify spending the money some online sellers have it priced at.)

Sorry. If you will not accept my testimony (I swear before mods and members that it is true), you will have to consult a maester at your local library.
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All y'all are gonna poo right in your pants...

Before Bantam Spectra published A Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin on 08/06/1996, Asimov's Science Fiction magazine included Blood of the Dragon, a novella consisting of Daenerys's chapters from Game of Thrones in the July 1996 issue. The novella was republished by Bantam Spectra later that year as Blood of the Dragon: The Iron Throne Saga, Part I.

Now, I had read that the original published version differed from Game, so I set about to find the original publication. Armed with a smart phone, I questioned Google sharply to obtain all the necessary information. Then, the eRavens flew back and forth between a maester at my local county library and other maesters throughout the realm, until we had discovered the scroll, which was lost these past 19 years. I have seen it with mine own eyes, and I can attest to it's authenticity.

In Bantam Spectra's versions, Viserys and Daenerys had "lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place."

Before A Game of Thrones was published, though, this is what The George wrote for Asimov's Science Fiction: "That was when they had lived in Tyrosh, in the big house with the red door. Dany had slept in her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. They had wandered since then, from Tyrosh to Myr, from Myr to Braavos, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place."

There most certainly is something rotten about that lemon tree in Braavos, but it was not intended to signal anything . . . um, sour about Daenerys's backstory. Before moving her backstory to Braavos, for whatever reason, The George had her living in Tyrosh, where we would expect lemon trees to grow. And we can point to a bit of confirming evidence later in Game . . .

Daenerys VI, Game 54

The George apparently forgot to change her dialect several chapters later, but I dont think he forgot to remove the lemon tree. I think he transplanted it. The George obviously had a reason for putting that lemon tree outside Daenerys's window, since he left it there after he moved her backstory to Braavos.

But what was the purpose of the lemon tree? Well, Im glad you asked . . . You see, the lemon, of course, is defined by its yellow color and sour taste. In addition to its use as food and drink, lemons can be used to clean. After a brief review of the use of lemons in art and literature, my understanding is that the lemon symbolizes bitterness and disappointment. (Exhibit A would be the Lemon Tree, the Israeli film from 2008, in which a Palestinian attempts to stop her neighbor, who happens to be the Israeli Defense Minister, from destroying the family's lemon grove.

In the end, the protagonist's efforts fail, and the trees are cut down.

The lemon is also used to symbolize power. The fruit appears to have originated in South Asia. Although they were known in Ancient Rome, they were not widely known in Europe until the tenth century. The first significant cultivation of lemons in Europe did not happen until the very end of the Middle Ages. Since they had to be imported to medieval Europe, lemons became associated with wealth and power. This symbolism of wealth and power seems to have been The George's intention when he had

Petyr serve the giant lemon cake in Alayne, Winds.

Fans of Sansa who think her weakness for lemon cakes is a symbol of her innocence and purity should take note and be wary. They might be comforted at least to note that within the Church, the lemon is considered a symbol of fidelity. And of course, as I'm sure will be discussed ad nauseam below by fans of Sansa and Daenerys, I am just a hater.) I believe The George included the lemon tree to foreshadow Daenerys's ultimate bitterness and disappointment.

To me, in my interpretation, I read the OP as "the lemon tree (wherever the frek it is/was) is foreshadowing Daenerys' ultimate bitterness and dissapointment."

So, I said, self what is a bittersweet ending.

Some cases of bittersweet endings are:

  • When the hero fades into obscurity, gaining nothing in exchange for everything they sacrificed.
  • When an irrevocable loss happens, which removes the innocence of the hero.
  • When the victory is only achieved at the sacrifice of people dear to the heroes (if not the heroes themselves).

Bittersweet endings — with the hero triumphing over the ultimate enemy and bringing peace and prosperity to the land, but at the same time defeating the ultimate enemy does not always come without sacrifices, whether be most or all of the characters dying in the end or that the characters are at a loss about what to do now.

Another way to think of it is that if the story's main conflict is resolved in favor of the protagonists, but at great sacrifice, it's a bittersweet ending.

I’m not even sure who the protagonists are anymore, but I think the OP did a good job.

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I think there is something rotten about those lemons in Braavos too. GRRM keeps throwing lemons and where they grow in our faces. I respect and understand the idea of the sealord's palace, but I'm in the Dorne camp. I don't know how Tyrosh would serve the story, for me it's evidence that the places she lived in her memories aren't the real story.

Tyrosh is the home of the the Three Faced God Trios. One head eats the dying and then comes out the other head reborn. The Sailor's Wife told Arya she didn't remember what the middle head was for. As per Mirri Maz Duur instruction that only 'death can pay for life', I suspect that third head of eating the sacrifice that pays for the rebirth. This is reminiscent of the three headed dragon which combined with Trios alludes to Dante's version of Satan chained to in the middle of a frozen lake who has three faces (colored black, red and pale yellow) chewing away at Brutus, Judas and Cassius for eternity because they are the ultimate betrayers. So we will see what happened. Now in Dante's Inferno along with the three heads, Satan has a pair of bat's wing. This is all speculation but perhaps the Trios is going to be that great winged beast that takes flight from a smoking tower that breathed shadows as per Dany's vision in the House of the Undying and the smoking tower is the tower in Braavos rather than the statue at the temple of Tyrosh.

You know I always found it weird that Dany loves the house with the red door in Braavos so much given the history of the city with Valyria but that may mean nothing.

When GRRM gives you lemons...make lemonade.

On my theme of biblical allusion, Lemons are the George's forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.

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As has been brought before this Tyrosh/Braavos mix up doesn't explain why Martin has been increasingly ramping up the idea that lemons are from Dorne and lemon trees don't grow in Braavos. This has started since the third book and seems to be increasing in crescendo as of the preview chapters that we're getting with WOW. Braavos was pretty much a blank slate until AFOC, so Martin could have fixed any issues re: the lemon trees early on. Or at the very least, don't have characters comment at all on the lack of citrus trees in Braavos, as he does in the Mercy chapter. I suppose it's possible that Martin's mistake could have been when he described Braavos as being a city devoid of trees, he forgot about Dany's lemon tree. And the preview chapters is just GRRM trolling the fans that brought up the theory on this board. It just seems to me if this was indeed a mistake GRRM could have used the Mercy chapter to explain it rather than exacerbate it. Someone could have told the character that was bitching about no fruit trees in Braavos that only the wealthy could afford to grow them in their gardens in Braavos, and boom problem solved.

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I think there is something rotten about those lemons in Braavos too. GRRM keeps throwing lemons and where they grow in our faces. I respect and understand the idea of the sealord's palace, but I'm in the Dorne camp. I don't know how Tyrosh would serve the story, for me it's evidence that the places she lived in her memories aren't the real story.

You mean her memories were implanted?

Aha, she's not just a replicant, a basic pleasure model built for Drogo, she's a special new experiment that Tyrell has been working on. This implies that the memories are Margaery's. Too bad she won't live, but then again, who does?

Thus, the lemon tree is in Highgarden. QED. Stop the argument.

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But why would she be in Tyrosh?

Because Tyrosh has the right conditions to grow lemons. Braavos does not and characters in the book keep commenting.

As a little girl, we had a french lemon tree in our backyard and I was constantly reminded by my mother never to go near it because of snakes. No it wasn't near my bedroom window that was an evil looking mini palm tree. But it was okay to play near the mango tree.

We are constantly reminded that Lemon Trees come from Dorne, what else do we have in Dorne? Snakes. The Lemon tree is the Tree of Knowledge.

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Lemons themselves are not bittersweet--you have to add some sugar to make them less bitter, and at that point you might as well add some water and ice while you're at it.

It's just hit me: this entire series is a recipe! The bitter disappointments of life + the sweet moments = lemonade. The human heart in conflict with itself = lemonade. It's all a metaphor for the irony of a drink best served cold that can only be made with a fruit that grows in a hot climate. You can't get the best of the lemons (from a hot place) unless you have some ice (from a cold place). They have to work together to survive and make good beverages...and working together means compromise, so neither side is entirely happy, which brings us back to bittersweet, which brings us back to lemonade.

Gosh, I've never won a thread before. :blushing:

Sweet! :cheers:

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