Evidence that the Lemon Tree Was Not Originally in Braavos

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Quote

...they were riding over devilgrass and past olive groves. Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green.

This is from the Queenmaker when Arianne and crew arrive at the Greenblood. I saw someone mention it on Reddit the other day, due to the lemon orchards, but I'm not sure if they picked up on the "spider's web of old canals." Of course, I'm sure somebody has before.

But it jumped out at me. At first I think of Rohanne Weber, from The Sworn Sword. Which makes a kind of sense: the other Dunk and Egg tales seem to have some direct connection to the main story of ASOIAF, especially The Mystery Knight. But not TSS. It seems to be just a stand-alone story... but if Dany grew up at Coldmoat, that could be the connection.

But, Coldmoat is nowhere near the Greenblood. And then I realised: it doesn't say a "spiderweb" of old canals - it says a "spider's web", which is a strange formulation emphasising the agency of the spider in creating the web, rather than the mere fact of the web itself.

So... Varys hid Dany near where Arianne gets ambushed by Areo Hotah?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

//

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

This is from the Queenmaker when Arianne and crew arrive at the Greenblood. I saw someone mention it on Reddit the other day, due to the lemon orchards, but I'm not sure if they picked up on the "spider's web of old canals." Of course, I'm sure somebody has before.

But it jumped out at me. At first I think of Rohanne Weber, from The Sworn Sword. Which makes a kind of sense: the other Dunk and Egg tales seem to have some direct connection to the main story of ASOIAF, especially The Mystery Knight. But not TSS. It seems to be just a stand-alone story... but if Dany grew up at Coldmoat, that could be the connection.

But, Coldmoat is nowhere near the Greenblood. And then I realised: it doesn't say a "spiderweb" of old canals - it says a "spider's web", which is a strange formulation emphasising the agency of the spider in creating the web, rather than the mere fact of the web itself.

So... Varys hid Dany near where Arianne gets ambushed by Areo Hotah?

I think her earliest years were spent on one of the House Boats on the green blood:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/129495-the-true-location-of-danys-house-with-the-red-door/

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

This is from the Queenmaker when Arianne and crew arrive at the Greenblood. I saw someone mention it on Reddit the other day, due to the lemon orchards, but I'm not sure if they picked up on the "spider's web of old canals." Of course, I'm sure somebody has before.

But it jumped out at me. At first I think of Rohanne Weber, from The Sworn Sword. Which makes a kind of sense: the other Dunk and Egg tales seem to have some direct connection to the main story of ASOIAF, especially The Mystery Knight. But not TSS. It seems to be just a stand-alone story... but if Dany grew up at Coldmoat, that could be the connection.

But, Coldmoat is nowhere near the Greenblood. And then I realised: it doesn't say a "spiderweb" of old canals - it says a "spider's web", which is a strange formulation emphasising the agency of the spider in creating the web, rather than the mere fact of the web itself.

So... Varys hid Dany near where Arianne gets ambushed by Areo Hotah?

I would submit that the spider's web of old canals was an early hint that Doran knew what Arianne was doing through a network of informers, and that the lemon trees signaled bitterness and disappointment would arise from the plot (Myrcella's ear). 

[Philokles]

I think the discrepancy is deliberate from GRRM - but rather than being there to show that Dany was in Dorne, it instead proves that her memories are unreliable. The house with the red door is a representation of her desire for a home, either being a complete invention or a conflation of several places in which she stayed as a child, which over time has become a false memory. Combined with the symbolism of bitterness and disappointment of the lemon, the fact she is searching for (the replacement of) a place which does not and cannot exist demonstrates that no matter what happens, she will always be out of place.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

I think the discrepancy is deliberate from GRRM - but rather than being there to show that Dany was in Dorne, it instead proves that her memories are unreliable. The house with the red door is a representation of her desire for a home, either being a complete invention or a conflation of several places in which she stayed as a child, which over time has become a false memory. Combined with the symbolism of bitterness and disappointment of the lemon, the fact she is searching for (the replacement of) a place which does not and cannot exist demonstrates that no matter what happens, she will always be out of place.

Your idea plays into, "If I look back, I am lost." 

[Orphalesion]

41 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

I think the discrepancy is deliberate from GRRM - but rather than being there to show that Dany was in Dorne, it instead proves that her memories are unreliable. The house with the red door is a representation of her desire for a home, either being a complete invention or a conflation of several places in which she stayed as a child, which over time has become a false memory. Combined with the symbolism of bitterness and disappointment of the lemon, the fact she is searching for (the replacement of) a place which does not and cannot exist demonstrates that no matter what happens, she will always be out of place.

 

This.

I have been saying that for years and I still think it's the most plausible explanation. Recently I visited the country where I grew up in early childhood. It's big on indoor water parks (due to being cold most of the year) that also have smaller outside areas, usually with a bit of parkland surrounding it. I went with family to the one that was my favourite as a kid and aside from it obviously changing in the years since I also kept looking, unsuccessfully, for particular features and areas I remembered. Conversations with my cousins easily cleared up that I was meshing together 4 different places in my memory, one of which wasn't even a water park.

I'm pretty certain the lemon tree, red door and the wooden carvings all where in different places her and Viserys stayed while running from Robert's non-existing assassins.None of these things might have been anywhere near Braavos. 

Sometimes a lemon tree is just a lemon tree. But since everybody figured out L+R=J years and years ago people need something to occupy their time until 2030 when we get the next sample chapter from Winds of Winter.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

12 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

I'm pretty certain the lemon tree, red door and the wooden carvings all where in different places her and Viserys stayed while running from Robert's non-existing assassins.None of these things might have been anywhere near Braavos.

I never even thought of that. But how would this be communicated to the reader without her meeting three separate people or returning to three separate places? Unless she finds that "Willem Darry" is still alive or something. Wouldn't those three things being in the one place make the mystery simpler to explicate?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think her earliest years were spent on one of the House Boats on the green blood:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/129495-the-true-location-of-danys-house-with-the-red-door/

 

That would be ironic, and fit in with GRRM's style: he likes to repeat himself across the books, echoing the same situations over and over again. Two Targaryen pretenders, both spending their youth hidden on a riverboat. (And with some Orphans of the Greenblood, too!)

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I never even thought of that. But how would this be communicated to the reader without her meeting three separate people or returning to three separate places? Unless she finds that "Willem Darry" is still alive or something. Wouldn't those three things being in the one place make the mystery simpler to explicate?

The House with the Red Door is already hammered as the idyllic life of peace without being involved in the game of thrones.  It comes up in future fantasies, even of her life together with Daario, which somewhat ironically in this case is tied very much to her bloodlust and desire for war as opposed to peace.  If we never got another mention of it, it has already served a purpose in the story, and I wouldn't begin to consider it a loose end if it were never revealed as an actual place, an amalgamation of places, or a complete fantasy.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

That would be ironic, and fit in with GRRM's style: he likes to repeat himself across the books, echoing the same situations over and over again. Two Targaryen pretenders, both spending their youth hidden on a riverboat. (And with some Orphans of the Greenblood, too!)

To be honest I never thought about the parallel between Dany being raised on a houseboat in the Greenblood with "Aegon's" situation, but you're exactly right, that would be a strong parallel.  In a way their two situations would be inversed.  Dany's extreme youth spent on a houseboat in Dorne, before she is shipped off to the Sealord's palace in Braavos, and later ends up in Illyrio's manse.  While young Aegon spends his early years in Illyrio's manse, and then is sent to be raised on a Dornish houseboat in Essos.

I also never thought about a Varys involvement, either, but once again it makes sense.  As an aside, we may have a hint as to where Illyrio went to get Varys some more of his "little birds" when he leaves King's Landing.  When Davos is rescued from the Blackwater, he meets up with Saan, who is on a boat that he claims was taken from Illyrio.  Among other items on the boat are jars of olives, which very well may have come from the Planky Town, which seems to be one of Dorne's major ports.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

To be honest I never thought about the parallel between Dany being raised on a houseboat in the Greenblood with "Aegon's" situation, but you're exactly right, that would be a strong parallel.  In a way their two situations would be inversed.  Dany's extreme youth spent on a houseboat in Dorne, before she is shipped off to the Sealord's palace in Braavos, and later ends up in Illyrio's manse.  While young Aegon spends his early years in Illyrio's manse, and then is sent to be raised on a Dornish houseboat in Essos.

I also never thought about a Varys involvement, either, but once again it makes sense.  As an aside, we may have a hint as to where Illyrio went to get Varys some more of his "little birds" when he leaves King's Landing.  When Davos is rescued from the Blackwater, he meets up with Saan, who is on a boat that he claims was taken from Illyrio.  Among other items on the boat are jars of olives, which very well may have come from the Planky Town, which seems to be one of Dorne's major ports.

The parallel would be even more complete if Yandry and Ysilla were caring for Daenerys's pole boat on the Greenblood. 

[Rippounet]

At this point I'm just eager to know what lemongate really means, i.e. read the next book.

The problem with theories based on lemongate is that they're either undewhelming or fantastic.
Considering how often the house with the red door and where lemons should grow are mentioned (though often separately), I would me surprised it's all to point out the fact that Dany's memories can't be trusted.
On the other hand, theories that question Dany's parentage have little textual support and struggle to explain Viserys's role in a satisfying way.
And there's just no middle ground. I don't think I've seen a theory that shoots for a simple explanation while having enough importance for the many textual references (especially those in WoW chapters).

At this point it seems to me we can only wait for WoW to give us another piece of the puzzle. If it's about parentage, we'll learn more about Ashara and/or Rhaegar. If it's about identity, Dany will remain torn between her yearning for a simple life and her desire to claim the IT (perhaps her infatuation with Daario will grow).
It could also be something surprising. Dany's character is more mysterious than many people give her credit for. Her abilities and insight are remarkable for a girl her age (though people like to underline her failures or see her successes as plot armor), her magic is incredibly powerful (it's more than dragonriding methinks), she's had complex visions, and she attracts people with abilities and/or agendas of their own (Quaithe, Moqoro or Marwyn are obvious, but there may be more to Daario or Missandei than meets the eye). We naturally focus on the location of the house with the red door, but it may not be only about location.

Red R'hllor, the red woman, red candles (in the HoB&W)... Was that door even really red?

 

[Orphalesion]

18 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I never even thought of that. But how would this be communicated to the reader without her meeting three separate people or returning to three separate places? Unless she finds that "Willem Darry" is still alive or something. Wouldn't those three things being in the one place make the mystery simpler to explicate?

Have the red door be in a place where it's impossible for lemon trees to grow. Have her come across some wood carvings somewhere else that remind her. Meh it could be done, beats "everything we have learned about this character is a lie and the truth was only conveyed in cryptic non-clues that nobody would get unless they comb trough every little passage multiple times and decides that things have counter intutive meanings"

That's how we got the legend of the Rapture.

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

At this point I'm just eager to know what lemongate really means, i.e. read the next book.

The problem with theories based on lemongate is that they're either undewhelming or fantastic.
Considering how often the house with the red door and where lemons should grow are mentioned (though often separately), I would me surprised it's all to point out the fact that Dany's memories can't be trusted.
On the other hand, theories that question Dany's parentage have little textual support and struggle to explain Viserys's role in a satisfying way.
 

I think significant thematic metaphor of one of her heart's desires is  perfectly fine to justify the amount of times it's mentioned (and one that is a lot more relevant than simply taking away that her memories can't be trusted).

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

At this point it seems to me we can only wait for WoW to give us another piece of the puzzle. If it's about parentage, we'll learn more about Ashara and/or Rhaegar. If it's about identity, Dany will remain torn between her yearning for a simple life and her desire to claim the IT (perhaps her infatuation with Daario will grow).
 

It wouldn't remotely shock me if we don't learn anything about it.  Dany is pretty clear with what she thinks her identity should be in her last ADWD chapter, and that newfound commitment to her family's words are at odds with what the house with the red door has always signified.

[Orphalesion]

16 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I think significant thematic metaphor of one of her heart's desires is  perfectly fine to justify the amount of times it's mentioned (and one that is a lot more relevant than simply taking away that her memories can't be trusted).

It wouldn't remotely shock me if we don't learn anything about it.  Dany is pretty clear with what she thinks her identity should be in her last ADWD chapter, and that newfound commitment to her family's words are at odds with what the house with the red door has always signified.

I think it will be the final tragedy of her character. I think she will succeed and will sit the throne and will still never feel at home in King's Landing, her home will always be the house with the red door and the lemon tree.

However it never having existed int he form Dany remembers (the tree being somewhere else than the red door) could also be significant and could lead to Dany revaluing her life. she hates the Ursurper because he has cost her her home...now what if she learns that the home she dreams of has never existed?

[Lost Melnibonean]

When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes.

In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ened up at her father's execution. Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later Tyrion stood accused of regicide. That was the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he choked. Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father.

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Arianne’s first meal while locked in the tower included kind roasted with lemon. And the soup at the feast to welcome Gregor's head was made with eggs and lemons. 

Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

Just after Tyrion plants the notion of sailing to Westeros without Daenerys in the noble lad's head, the merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, and they learn that Daenerys hasn't left Meereen. Aegon fatefully decides to go west insteaed of east. Anybody think Aegon will win the dance? And Tyrion decides to go whoring after dinner, and meets his new buddy Jorah. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls. Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen?

When Cersei entered Maggy the Frog's tent, one of the eastern scents she smelled was lemongrass. Before the night was done Cersei would learn that Melara had a crush on Jaime, and Melara would die at the bottom of a well. 

[bemused]

@Lost Melnibonean  Filled with Lemony goodness!

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/4/2017 at 4:54 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes.

In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ened up at her father's execution. Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later Tyrion stood accused of regicide. That was the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he choked. Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father.

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Arianne’s first meal while locked in the tower included kind roasted with lemon. And the soup at the feast to welcome Gregor's head was made with eggs and lemons. 

Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

Just after Tyrion plants the notion of sailing to Westeros without Daenerys in the noble lad's head, the merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, and they learn that Daenerys hasn't left Meereen. Aegon fatefully decides to go west insteaed of east. Anybody think Aegon will win the dance? And Tyrion decides to go whoring after dinner, and meets his new buddy Jorah. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls. Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen?

When Cersei entered Maggy the Frog's tent, one of the eastern scents she smelled was lemongrass. Before the night was done Cersei would learn that Melara had a crush on Jaime, and Melara would die at the bottom of a well. 

And in Winds...

Spoiler

Quote

And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.

For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out.  Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites.  The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

Alayne, Wind

Run, Sansa! Run!

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. 

...

All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known. 

Daenerys I, Game 3

Sorry, babe.. 

Lemon tree very pretty and the lemon flower is sweet

But the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat.

From Lemon Tree by Peter, Paul and Mary