When did the Andals leave Essos?

[joluoto2]

I Think the reason 2000 years ago is when records become somewhat more accurate is because around this time the Order of the Maesters become a Westeros- wide phenomenon instead of a local clique in Oldtown, and the faith is somewhat centralized under a High Septon, instead of a decentralized organization. So 2000 years ago the institutions that have a strong role in the spread of knowledge and a central role in the teaching of reading and writing are in place.

[AlaskanSandman]

I Think the reason 2000 years ago is when records become somewhat more accurate is because around this time the Order of the Maesters become a Westeros- wide phenomenon instead of a local clique in Oldtown, and the faith is somewhat centralized under a High Septon, instead of a decentralized organization. So 2000 years ago the institutions that have a strong role in the spread of knowledge and a central role in the teaching of reading and writing are in place.

Yea that's pretty much what the Maesters and the Septons tell us. I dont believe that.  Wayyyyyyy too much evidence suggest otherwise. 

[joluoto2]

Yea that's pretty much what the Maesters and the Septons tell us. I dont believe that.  Wayyyyyyy too much evidence suggest otherwise. 

No it actually fit very well. Before these institutions were around few could read and write. During the Fist Men era runes were used instead of writing. It required institutions with a focus on learning to exist to start spreading it. Thus there are almost no sources from the earlier eras, and those that exist are from Valyria or Yi Ti or other places outside of Westeros.

Does this mean the sources tell the truth: No. Definitely not. It's just that 2000 years ago is when the knowledge to read and write become widespread, thus sources actually can exist.

The sources we have from before this era are of oral tradition, spread by Singers and Storytellers. Does that mean the can't be true? No, but there is no one actually able to validate them, and singers and storytellers both spice up the stories to make them more interesting and adopt anachronisms to make them more relatable for their crowd. Thus we get knighte before the Andals have crossed to Westeros. These stories are also impossible to pinpoint in time, because how much they have changed, and how little when they happened matters to the storyteller. For the storyteller or singer A long time ago is enough a measurement.

[AlaskanSandman]

No it actually fit very well. Before these institutions were around few could read and write. During the Fist Men era runes were used instead of writing. It required institutions with a focus on learning to exist to start spreading it. Thus there are almost no sources from the earlier eras, and those that exist are from Valyria or Yi Ti or other places outside of Westeros.

Does this mean the sources tell the truth: No. Definitely not. It's just that 2000 years ago is when the knowledge to read and write become widespread, thus sources actually can exist.

The sources we have from before this era are of oral tradition, spread by Singers and Storytellers. Does that mean the can't be true? No, but there is no one actually able to validate them, and singers and storytellers both spice up the stories to make them more interesting and adopt anachronisms to make them more relatable for their crowd. Thus we get knighte before the Andals have crossed to Westeros. These stories are also impossible to pinpoint in time, because how much they have changed, and how little when they happened matters to the storyteller. For the storyteller or singer A long time ago is enough a measurement.

That almost came off like you were reading from the book, while really pointing out nothing to change anything really.

And if that's how you feel why bother with this thread?

I could list all of the reasons the evidence leans towards a Maester cover up, but that's alot of typing for some one who seems pretty content with what they read. Plus, there are about 17 pages worth of reasoning on why the Andals really came 2000 ish years ago, at least the finale migration. Most of the people who've hashed it out in this thread already pretty much agreed on it. Yi-ti was even given as an example of how the history is a lie as the time frame doesn't line up.

Here is one thread where that is discussed also, pay attention to page 3 where the time of their emperor's is broken down. To reach your believed Long Night of 8-10,ooo years ago, would require some major inflation of time. This chapter was written specifically by Martin too. If he is telling you anything in that book, it's def in that chapter.

I could go on and on, but that'd take the fun and discovery out of reading these forums, in full. Like i said though, if your adament to believe the Maesters and Septons over the singers who have proven to be right so far in any case they're put to the test.

Take the song about Robert having his balls ripped off by the Lion and the Bore did all the rest. (cant remember off hand if that was a book thing, correct me if wrong.) The singer had his tongue removed for being to honest. Or hands broken in the case of Marillion. Either way, the singers dont seem to hold back the truth, rather this is a problem for them and they must stay within realms their songs are appropriate for.

So when a song mentions Knights and dragons in the Age of Heroes, i wouldn't dismiss it. The Maesters are accused of ridding the Targaryen's of their dragons and even starting Roberts Rebellion. Its not a far leap to assume this is what they did then too. 

Or were all wrong. The Targaryens feared them for no reason, Maesters being trained in murder... naw  thats not suspicious, there is no God's eye conspiracy connecting to the Citidel, and the Sandsnakes random feud with Old Town is just that, random. The Maesters and Septons are our friends and simply want to enlighten us past the stories of Wet nurses and singers. Grumpkins, Snarks, and oogly booglies that stuff is and no more likely than dragons or Others.

Never mind the fact the Maesters are an institution dating back to the Age of Heroes unbroken that we are aware of. Any oral traditions told in that Citidel should be pretty well established as fact. Never mind the sheer fact the Citidel is old enough to know the truth about Others and Dragons and are clearly lying or choosing to forget their past and rewrite it to exclude them from history.

So no, if the history fit very well. We wouldn't have these discrepancies and differing accounts or such varying time frames. Seriously? The Maesters cant decide on 6000, 4000, or 2000 years ago? That should be your first clue. Then that with the accounts about Ser Artys/ the Winged Knight and Alyssa Arryn countered as only being 2000 years ago. 

The movements of Valyria and other cultures has even been worked out in other threads such as that Y-ti one that helps give credit to this post and the idea of 2000ish years ago. Every angle has literally been worked out nearly that i can think of, i cant actually think of one that hasn't.

The biggest problem for most who have gotten this far is consolidating the stories dating back to the Age of Heroes and Dawn Days. Dawn days into the Long Night being the hardest as this is a disaster that struck every where at the same time, knocking back all cultures almost. This is the even to work out from, as was even suggested to me as if good advice.

[joluoto2]

Okay to get this straight. You think the First Men had knight, reading and writing and steel. You think the Maesters destroyed all documents older than 2000 years old to make it look like those things were alot younger. Basically you can come out now: You think the Andal invasions are a myth, a lie that never happened.

Never mind the sources about Andals in Essos then. But the Essosi are probably in on it too, right?

There is obviously a time difference between the time the Andals arrived and brought writing, and the time reading and writing became commonplace among the elite. The era of that gap is as mythical as the First Men era, since again, not enough sources to validate anything. The Maesters of this era are First Men and don't yet read or write. And probably as any ancient organization very much resisted anything new, like writing for centuries. I also doubt the Maesters of this era had any influence beyond the Reach. 

I think the original Order of Maesters were pretty much the polar opposite to the scientist Maesters of the past 2000 years. I think the original Maesters were into experiments with magic and other mysteries alot. The Valyrian steel part of the chain exist for a reason (though that chain has probably changed over the years, the original magic metal was probably not Valyrian steel, because no Valyria yet).

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Okay to get this straight. You think the First Men had knight, reading and writing and steel. You think the Maesters destroyed all documents older than 2000 years old to make it look like those things were alot younger. Basically you can come out now: You think the Andal invasions are a myth, a lie that never happened.

Never mind the sources about Andals in Essos then. But the Essosi are probably in on it too, right?

There is obviously a time difference between the time the Andals arrived and brought writing, and the time reading and writing became commonplace among the elite. The era of that gap is as mythical as the First Men era, since again, not enough sources to validate anything. The Maesters of this era are First Men and don't yet read or write. And probably as any ancient organization very much resisted anything new, like writing for centuries. I also doubt the Maesters of this era had any influence beyond the Reach. 

I think the original Order of Maesters were pretty much the polar opposite to the scientist Maesters of the past 2000 years. I think the original Maesters were into experiments with magic and other mysteries alot. The Valyrian steel part of the chain exist for a reason (though that chain has probably changed over the years, the original magic metal was probably not Valyrian steel, because no Valyria yet).

 

Idk where you got all of that at, but no, just no. There was definitely an Andal migration. With those kinda comprehension skills, im not gonna bother trying to explain and correct what you took in as completely wrong and not even close to my theory. 

Needless to say, you dont question when the Andals left Essos, which is what this thread was started about. So any further rebuking with you would just be pointless. You should poke around on threads that are in line with your theories. Unless you just have that much time on your hands to kill.  Every body in this thread knows of the evidence for the Andal Invasion being 6000 years ago. I think most are here to argue for the evidence of it being the alternative dates were given at 4000 or 2000 years ago. 

[AlaskanSandman]

I stumbled across an interesting observation during the discussion on Theon Stark. Theon's lifetime is actually a remarkably good good marker in the timeline of Westeros, mostly because of the number of prominent events and figures that were contemporaneous with him.

 

1. We know the biggest Andal invasion of the North occurred during his lifetime.

2. We know the Vale was already under Arryn control.

3. We know Harrag Hoare was King of the Iron isles and warred against Theon. In fact, Theon slayed his son Ravos in battle.

4. We know Theon conquered the Three Sisters.

5. We know Theon landed an army in the Fingers.

 

 

From the above we can deduce a remarkable amount of likely truths.

 

From Argos Sevenstar's military campaign in the North, we know that the Andal invasion was still in full swing during Theon's lifetime. We also know that the invasion was not close to its start, because the Vale was already firmly ruled by the Arryns. Furthermore, we know that Harrag Hoare only came to power once the Andals had extinguished House Greyiron's line on the Iron Isles. And we know that the Iron Isles only fell to the Andals late in the Andal invasion - after the Vale and Riverlands had already fallen.

 

So from the above we know that Theon Stark lived at least a couple of centuries after the Andals first landed in the Vale.

 

Theon's conquest of the Three Sisters is also noteworthy if you think about it for a moment. It seems that before the Rape of the Three Sisters, the Northmen had never conquered the Three Sisters, but had instead been satisfied with building the Wolfsden to protect the White Knife from the Sistermen.

 

Note that the World Book states that after Theon slew Argos Sevenstar, he raised his own fleet to invade Andalos. This implies that the Starks did not have a fleet before that. This, together with the reference to the Starks joining with the Boltons to defeat Argos, and with the footnote about Belthasar Bolton making his tent from the flayed skins of 100 Sistermen during the Rape of Sisterton, strongly suggests that it was Theon's fleet built for the invasion of Andalos that gave him the naval ability to invade the Three Sisters thereafter. Before that, he did not have a fleet with which to do so.

 

Given that the Sistermen then called on the Arryns to aid them, it would also explain why Theon landed an army in the Fingers. Why else pick a fight with the Arryns?

 

So the above strongly supports the conclusion that Theon was the Stark who executed the Rape of the Three Sisters.

 

And as a side note, Theon's wars in Andalos, the Sisters and the Vale are eerie echoes of Robb taking his army South and leaving the North vulnerable to Ironborn attack. Indeed, we then read that Harrag Hoare attacked the North's west coast and took Cape Kraken and Bear Island from the Starks. Why would he do this, knowing Theon's warlike reputation? Obviously because the cream of the North's forces were away in Andalos, the Sisters and the Vale and Harrag felt they were ripe for the picking.

 

Only, unlike Robb, Theon Stark returned to the North and repelled the Ironborn from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, slayring Harrag's son Ravos in the process.

 

Given the dating of the Rape of the Three Sisters as 2000 years ago by the maesters this gives us a nice marker for the latter stages of the Andal invasion. This also ties in very nicely with a separate dating, given by Lord Blackwood's bookish son, who stated that the Andals conquered the Iron Isles either 4000 years ago, or 2000 years ago, depending on which timeline to believe.

 

Well, given that Harrag Hoare was the king chosen at a Kingsmoot shortly after the Andal conquest of the Iron Isles, we now know that this Kingsmoot happened during the lifetime of Theon Stark. And since the Starks first conquered the Three Sisters during the Rape of Sisterton, we know that Theon is very likely to have been the Stark that did so. And that in turn tells us that the last Kingsmoot must have happened in the same generation as the Rape of the Three Sisters.

 

Also, unless someone is seriously suggesting that Theon Stark lived 4000 years ago - which is impossible given all the corroborating evidence to the contrary - all of the above tells us that the dating of 2000 years ago for both the last Kingsmoot, the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands, the North's invasion by Argos Sevenstar, and the Rape of the Three Sisters is the correct one.

 

To me the above is pretty much incontrovertible proof that the Andal invasion finally conquered the Iron Isles a few generations before Harrag, who lived 2000 years ago, not 4000 years ago. This conquest happened during the lifetime of Harrag's ancestor, Harras, who was the first Hoare King. Meaning that the Andals likely first arrived in the Vale a few centuries before that. Which in my book places the Andal invasion between around 2400 and 1800 years ago, depending on how many further invasion attempts there were after Theon scared the living daylights out of Argos's kin on their home turf.

 

For all we know it was Theon Stark who finally put an end to the Andal invasions for good, by bringing war and devastation to Andalos itself, thus convincing the Andals to rather stay home from that point onwards. In which case the Andal invasion likely started around 2400 years ago, and ended around 2000 years ago.

 

Thanks to Theon, and the information we have on his lifetime, we can connect a lot of dots about that period of history.

 

EDIT

 

Note that there is the well known discrepancy between the statement that Urron Redhand Greyiron was the last king chosen at a Kingsmoot, and Aeron Greyjoy's statement that Harrag Hoare was chosen at a Kingsmoot. Since House Hoare ruled the Iron Isles after House Greyiron became extinct, both cannot be true.

 

Nevertheless, this does not change my above timeline analysis, since the date of the last kingsmoot is not crucial to it. The dating of Harrag's lifetime is what's important, and we know he lived after the Andals had conquered the Iron Isles, and contemporaneous with Theon Stark's lifetime.

I have some questions as i think your on to some thing but wonder about a few points i found.

Firstly let me say that Qhored l Hoare is listed as either Blacktyde or GreyIron in some accounts which i found interesting. I have taken this to mean that House Hoare and GreyIron have a deep connection. Aside from the obvious Hoares probably married the daughter of the last GreyIron. 

House Hoare is said to have Black hair, eyes and heart due to the Andal taint. This i thought interesting as the House Arryn which is supposedly our best idea of what Andals look like, dont have black hair and eyes but rather blondish hair and blue eyes. This also made me think of another house with strong similar features of black hair and eyes, that of Houses Durrandon and Baratheon. House Baratheon being a bastard Targaryen branch that took to wife the daughter of the last Durrandon King. 

Interestingly both the driftwood crown and stag crown of the Baratheons/Durrandons look similar and makes me think of men with antlers. Like the green men. How could the Ironborn tie to them? Ill get back to that in just a little bit. Let me back up to the Andal - Ironborn tie. 

The Andal King Hugor was said to have been promised lands by the gods and was said to have had 44 sons with his blue eyed bride. Let me first say his blue eyed bride sounds like the Night's King bride, an other. Anyways, 44 sons. There just happen to be 44 IronIsles. 31 in the main grouping and 13 in the smaller Farwynd isles. Then there are the largest numbering 7. There are further links in the numbers but for now ill stop there. Needless to say there are ties in the Hugor story to the Iron Isles. Note on Hugor. If Hukko is another rendering of Hugor, then may also so is Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai. Tying Hugor to the sea due to his mother being the Last Fisher Queen.

Now, there is a Ironborn warrior know as Balon Blackskin who fought with an ax and a hammer, both of which are Andal signs carved through out the Vale. He was also said to have black skin that could turn away a sword and shatter axes. There are also accounts of Ironborn fighting with black weapons that drank the souls of their enemies. This sounds like the Black Valyrian steel that we know through Qohor is made by sacrificing some one and using their blood. Probably by running it through their heart. 

Now, their is the account of Lady Forlorn. A sword owned by the Andal house of Corbray. Whose sigil has 3 ravens holding 3 hearts. Makes me think of those Green Men again and their ravens and the citidel. Now this sword is of a mystery. The original may have been found which means we dont know for fact if the current Lady Forlorn is the same as the old one. This is said though of the sword. That is was used by a first man against an Andals he thought was Ser Artys Arryn. The sword is said to bite into the steel of the Andal and killed him. No regular steel sword can bite into steep plate like that. If you know swords, you know that you have to pierce steel armor with a thrust, not a slash which would create a bite. So the very description of the sword in action sounds Valyrian. Which ive linked the Andals and Ironborn some already and have mentioned accounts of the Ironborn fighting with black weapons etc.

Now, back to the Green Men and House GreyIron-Hoare. If you look at the sigil for house Hoare or its description, its that of a merman with green hair and beard with a crown on his head. This is interesting to me as a similar thing can be found in the reach. Where the only sigil depicting a man with Green Hair and Beard as Garth was mentioned to look like, is House Manderly. Which has a merman holding a trident with a green beard and hair.  This trident makes me think of House Hoare and the RiverLands. (Keep thinking Gods Eye and Green men and ravens.) Yes, i am suggesting that the Grey King and Garth the Green are one and the same. The Grey King with his grey skin, hair and eyes, was just Garth in his later years. Keep in mind that the Grey King took to wife a mermaid and that Duran God's Grief wed Elenai, daughter of the Storm god and Sea Goddess. Meaning they may both be the same. Durran's story is littered all over with 7 and Andal hints too. 

Now onto House Hoares sigil, which is that of 4 places they conquered. One of which is of a Raven for the Citidel and Oldtown. Now here we have again a link between Ravens, Ironborn, and Andals. 

Now you mention a good point, House Hoare wasn't likely ruling untill after the death/assimilation of House GreyIron. Which was after the Andals had come, which like you mention was abouts 2000 years ago. Which puts the Ironborn in control of the Citidel during a very crucial stage in the Andal take over. Keep in mind that House Hoare was now ruling the Riverlands through Harrenhal in the time of Aegon's conquest.

 

...... so what does this all mean. You bring up alot of very good bread crumbs for proving the Andal Invasion to be around 2000 years ago. This does greatly change history and event's but we have a good reason why the Maesters or Septons may be lying, because they killed off the Dragons in the Age of Heroes as they did during the Dance of Dragons, as i believe. 

I feel like between what your putting out and what im trying to put out is greatly tied together and may be able to work together to draw up a more comprehensive time theory involving all the moving parts like things from Essos. There are sooooo many more points i didn't even bring up for time sake and not wanting to bog you down with too many differing points all meant to link up.

All the points i bring up on their own seem odd, indeed this is how the Septons presented it to us. But if we step back, consider how the time line should actually be based on clues such as you bring up and other points, linking them all together. You begin to to see a connecting web emerging and a more believable time line. Hit me back and let me know your thoughts.